What happened When Right-wing activist Tried to Raise Indian Flag in Occupied Kashmir

[Joe Shearer]

You are good at claiming stalemates as victories. But still powerless to avoid the inevitable.

You are quite right. When there are others, Major Amin, Air Marshal Nur Khan and similar eminences, there is really no need for us to defend our claims. There are enough Pakistanis to do that for us.

Who is powerless to do what is quite apparent from these writings, including those of Z. A. Khan and Kaisar Tufail. I find that it is not worth entering into discussions citing anybody but Pakistani sources with a particular class of Pakistani, and try not to convey anything outside the writings of Pakistani authors themselves. It is far more rewarding to watch the incoherent fury that results.

You do know that much worse happened with the Pandits.

I do not see Kashmiri Sunnis as my countrymen or women.

I see them as squatters. Who are on the wrong side of history and the border. And would have us deal with them similarly.

Agree.

Disagree. What is the difference between a Kashmir Sunni and other Indian Sunnis? And what about the fragment of Baltistan within Indian-administered Kashmir, the Shia of Kargil?

Disagree. This is completely contradictory of the laws of the Ranveer Code, for starters. And these are the people who mobilised themselves for the defence of Srinagar in October and November 1947, when a certain Brigadier Manekshaw was the DMO and organised the airlift of 1 Sikhs to Srinagar. One of them, a teen-ager, went from group to group of the qabailis telling them the way to Srinagar, until they found out that he was misdirecting them and crucified him. Come and see the chowk in Baramula named after him, and tell me how you propose to send that across the border with the population that is to be ethnically cleansed.

If you come to Kashmir with me, you will be shocked at the reality outside the blogs and the tweets.

 

[doppelganger]

They have been pushing. And pushing.

When the dam breaks, it will not be pretty.

 

[somebozo]

Hama taranga le gae..oohh dekho hamara tiranga phaar dya..this guy knows he is in hostile territory...but the funniest part was how a random passer by nicely took the flag without resistance...speaks what are true sentiments on Kashmiri youth!

 

[Joe Shearer]

The trouble is that most Indians and all Pakistanis buy into their respective national myth-making and don't even bother to go and check what the Kashmiri man-in-the-street thinks. Not even what the stone-pelters think.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

#KashmirResists.

horus is at it again

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hama taranga le gae..oohh dekho hamara tiranga phaar dya..this guy knows he is in hostile territory...but the funniest part was how a random passer by nicely took the flag without resistance...speaks what are true sentiments on Kashmiri youth!

Sometimes I wonder why even normally rational Pakistanis go off at the deep end about Kashmir and use the language and adopt the attitudes of school children.

It can't be about civil liberties and about human rights; they have had very curious views on these subjects in other places in the past.
It can't be because of strategic interest; there was, originally, strategic interest in the regions to the north and the north-west, the areas abutted by Gilgit, not even by Baltistan, and Gilgit came into Pakistani hands by the 15th of November 1947.
It can't be because of the criticality of water and water resources; that is the part of the border and the catchment area related problems that works, in a practical sense.

We have to look deeper, possibly. One hint was about the displaced persons who hold high positions in the military and in the civilians set ups, and whose feeling of dispossession fuels the conflict. Since these are almost exclusively residents of Mirpur and so-called Azad Kashmir, with not a single Kashur-speaker among them, this seems a bit bizarre. These were the people who fought the hardest to be free of the Dogras, and who resisted them long before independence from the British was thought about; they never thought of themselves as Kashmiris except when agitating for their own successes to be extended by exercise of world popular opinion to the Vale.

That leaves us with the thought that Kashmir represented the first time that their collective wishes were thwarted, and that it therefore has a special particularly painful connotation for them. Only the future will tell what it was.

 

[doppelganger]

Sometimes I wonder why even normally rational Pakistanis go off at the deep end about Kashmir and use the language and adopt the attitudes of school children.

It can't be about civil liberties and about human rights; they have had very curious views on these subjects in other places in the past.
It can't be because of strategic interest; there was, originally, strategic interest in the regions to the north and the north-west, the areas abutted by Gilgit, not even by Baltistan, and Gilgit came into Pakistani hands by the 15th of November 1947.
It can't be because of the criticality of water and water resources; that is the part of the border and the catchment area related problems that works, in a practical sense.

We have to look deeper, possibly. One hint was about the displaced persons who hold high positions in the military and in the civilians set ups, and whose feeling of dispossession fuels the conflict. Since these are almost exclusively residents of Mirpur and so-called Azad Kashmir, with not a single Kashur-speaker among them, this seems a bit bizarre. These were the people who fought the hardest to be free of the Dogras, and who resisted them long before independence from the British was thought about; they never thought of themselves as Kashmiris except when agitating for their own successes to be extended by exercise of world popular opinion to the Vale.

That leaves us with the thought that Kashmir represented the first time that their collective wishes were thwarted, and that it therefore has a special particularly painful connotation for them. Only the future will tell what it was.

Now superimpose all of the above on the collective Pakistani psyche and you would get what their real beef with India and Indians is.

Kashmir is a hauvva.

To project their feelings of frustration and helplessness, enfeeblement even, towards the rest of their more historically martial (and way less than impressed) Ummah to their West.

i.e. the weak Hindustani converts who can't fight. Not now. Nor when they converted.

Cheers, Doc

If you come to Kashmir with me, you will be shocked at the reality outside the blogs and the tweets.

Name when.

Road trip. Safari. Portable fridge for fluids. We can con our Hyderabad friend to come along.

Fauji acco I will arrange. You may do likewise for sarkari Babu acco.

But I promise you as close to Siachen as a civvy can get.

Bolo.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Now superimpose all of the above on the collective Pakistani psyche and you would get what their real beef with India and Indians is.

Kashmir is a hauvva.

To project their feelings of frustration and helplessness, enfeeblement even, towards the rest of their more historically martial (and way less than impressed) Ummah to their West.

i.e. the weak Hindustani converts who can't fight. Not now. Nor when they converted.

Cheers, Doc

No comment.

Name when.

Road trip. Safari. Portable fridge for fluids. We can con our Hyderabad friend to come along.

Fauji acco I will arrange. You may do likewise for sarkari Babu acco.

But I promise you as close to Siachen as a civvy can get.

Bolo.

When: on a phone call. New term starts on a date, so that's the end point.
How:

• Sounds good, but are you planning Safari from H to Jammu Tawi? Not good. Better take off from Jammu Tawi after ferrying the Safari to that point by rail. The weather en route will be killing hot.
• Fridge will be needed. It was raining in Srinagar.
• Conning: Desirable. He has as many fauji connections, and I have a few, too, besides civilian administration and Aam Admi Kashmiri

Where:

• Some time in Srinagar. Talk to real people, salt of the earth. CAVEAT: Some of my friends are azaadi supporters; if you don't want to meet them, or can't guarantee being nice to them (they are very nice guys, the sort I'd invite home for a drink - in their case, a good tea, perhaps), you're welcome to stay out. It's just food and drink and yak anyway.
• I'd like to land up in Leh. We can work out the details but I could peel off and go there.

I've promised to be there to meet friends, and they're expecting me, so this trip is on, subject to resolution of various hassles going on currently.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

That leaves us with the thought that Kashmir represented the first time that their collective wishes were thwarted, and that it therefore has a special particularly painful connotation for them. Only the future will tell what it was.

Now the Other SIDE of the Coin is also equally true

Why do Indians want to keep Kashmir at the cost of so much blood and treasure

We know what the kashmiris want

The answer to all this lies in the Martial race theory

We Indians particularly Hindus have a point to prove

And we are doing that by holding on to Kashmir

Just because THEY want Kashmir ; We wont give it

Prove your strength and take it by force

 

[doppelganger]

No comment.

Your comment, while missed, is not the missing link to validate a long known truth.

It just comes with added fringe benefits when they get to hear it from a non Hindu. Especially one with the same blood lines of those who shafted them. At various epochal intervals. Right down to 1965 and 1971.

When: on a phone call. New term starts on a date, so that's the end point.
How:

• Sounds good, but are you planning Safari from H to Jammu Tawi? Not good. Better take off from Jammu Tawi after ferrying the Safari to that point by rail. The weather en route will be killing hot.
• Fridge will be needed. It was raining in Srinagar.
• Conning: Desirable. He has as many fauji connections, and I have a few, too, besides civilian administration and Aam Admi Kashmiri

Where:

• Some time in Srinagar. Talk to real people, salt of the earth. CAVEAT: Some of my friends are azaadi supporters; if you don't want to meet them, or can't guarantee being nice to them (they are very nice guys, the sort I'd invite home for a drink - in their case, a good tea, perhaps), you're welcome to stay out. It's just food and drink and yak anyway.
• I'd like to land up in Leh. We can work out the details but I could peel off and go there.

I've promised to be there to meet friends, and they're expecting me, so this trip is on, subject to resolution of various hassles going on currently.

No carrying Safari on train man. If not going together, I'm going with a serving fauji Colonel (a batch senior) on bikes and will meet you somewhere there. Inshalla. We are doing the Leh-Hunder circuit, with a promised dress up like soldier and fire an LMG in Siachen thrown in for good measure. The direction of fire needless to mention .....

P.S. You are welcome to your Azadi friends.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Now the Other SIDE of the Coin is also equally true

Why do Indians want to keep Kashmir at the cost of so much blood and treasure

We know what the kashmiris want

The answer to all this lies in the Martial race theory

We Indians particularly Hindus have a point to prove

And we are doing that by holding on to Kashmir

Just because THEY want Kashmir ; We wont give it

Prove your strength and take it by force

No, not at all. Emphatically not so.

Our nation was founded on the understanding that we are inclusive, not exclusive. We were not founded as a Hindu nation, with other bits and pieces sticking out. That is the fundamental mistake that the religious right wing makes, and continues to make.

We were formed on the understanding that all human beings have an equal right in the country; no exclusions, no preferences, no sly queues for special people. That equality extends to religion. And that is why it is important to resist S. A. S. Geelani's horrible, obscurantist dream of an Islamic Kashmir. Not because we are being stubborn and bloody-minded, but because acceding to his personal dream means betraying the minorities already in Kashmir, already under pressure. We betrayed the Pathans and Bacha Khan in 1947; you want to see it done again?

This is also why the BJP, the MIM, and their backing organisations like the RSS, the VHP and the Sangh Parivar in general are horrible mistakes, aberrations.

Your comment, while missed, is not the missing link to validate a long known truth.

It just comes with added fringe benefits when they get to hear it from a non Hindu. Especially one with the same blood lines of those who shafted them. At various epochal intervals. Right down to 1965 and 1971.
y


No carrying Safari on train man. If not going together, I'm going with a serving fauji Colonel (a batch senior) on bikes and will meet you somewhere there. Inshalla. We are doing the Leh-Hunder circuit, with a promised dress up like soldier and fire an LMG in Siachen thrown in for good measure. The direction of fire needless to mention .....

P.S. You are welcome to your Azadi friends.

We'll talk. Incidentally, you'd find my Azadi friends interesting; they are violently hostile to Pakistan. One of them has been warned not to return, by heavy-set gentlemen in civilian dress and black boots.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

To project their feelings of frustration and helplessness, enfeeblement even, towards the rest of their more historically martial (and way less than impressed) Ummah to their West.

i.e. the weak Hindustani converts who can't fight. Not now. Nor when they converted.

Before and after partition ; they have projected themselves as the successor of the Mughal empire

And they cant accept the fact that their former subjects can NOW really
whoop their ***

This has not happened in a day

It happened gradually

Their official thinking and narrative has evolved like this

1947 was a case of OK we were not prepared
1965 was about foolish mistakes

1971 was treachery of Bengalis

But privately the realisation sunk in at the magnitude of the shift of balance of power

This led to all the Investment in NON state actors

But the blow back has been nasty

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now while they were busy with dreams of Kashmir ; we were plodding our WAY up in this world

The result is Neither they have got Kashmir nor do they " match " with India on any count

The end result is massive frustration
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In 1947 They started with unequivocal claims of PARITY

Today they are staring at the prospect of India be coming a super power
while they slide slip and wither down ever further

The Questions regarding " Why partition " are still being asked there

That proves that India is really an existential threat to them

 

[doppelganger]

Before and after partition ; they have projected themselves as the successor of the Mughal empire

And they cant accept the fact that their former subjects can NOW really
whoop their ***

This has not happened in a day

It happened gradually

Their official thinking and narrative has evolved like this

1947 was a case of OK we were not prepared
1965 was about foolish mistakes

1971 was treachery of Bengalis

But privately the realisation sunk in at the magnitude of the shift of balance of power

This led to all the Investment in NON state actors

But the blow back has been nasty

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now while they were busy with dreams of Kashmir ; we were plodding our WAY up in this world

The result is Neither they have got Kashmir nor do they " match " with India on any count

The end result is massive frustration
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In 1947 They started with unequivocal claims of PARITY

Today they are staring at the prospect of India be coming a super power
while they slide slip and wither down ever further

The Questions regarding " Why partition " are still being asked there

That proves that India is really an existential threat to them

They understood what was in store all the way back when the Marathas were running amuck.

The British provided 200 years of succor and relief.

Partition provided the freedom to arm.

But what could never be camouflaged was they had been thrown out of and by Hindu India.

The size of the land they were given and they way it was later cleaved afresh.

These things are watched to their west. And their claims to being the nuclear sword arm of the Ummah get increasingly more amusing.

Not just to us. But their sponsors.

In my amateur uneducated opinion, the subcontinental Muslims lost when their foreign converters failed to convert the entire populace.

Even then they would have had a chance of peaceful coexistence.

IF they had separated FAITH from BLOOD and behaved accordingly.

I am sad to say that ship sailed a long long time ago.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Stephen Cohen]

They understood what was in store all the way back when the Marathas were running amuck.

The British provided 200 years of succor and relief.

Partition provided the freedom to arm.

But what could never be camouflaged was they had been thrown out of and by Hindu India.

The size of the land they were given and they way it was later cleaved afresh.

These things are watched to their west. And their claims to being the nuclear sword arm of the Ummah get increasingly more amusing.

Not just to us. But their sponsors.

In my amateur uneducated opinion, the subcontinental Muslims lost when their foreign converters failed to convert the entire populace.

Even then they would have had a chance of peaceful coexistence.

IF they had separated FAITH from BLOOD and behaved accordingly.

I am sad to say that ship sailed a long long time ago.

Cheers, Doc

In fact they gross ly underestimated India and Hindus

The Dreams of Green Flag on the Red Fort were very much alive till 1965

And 1971 was the real eye opener for them

They never anticipated the Non martial Hindu to be So ruthless
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In fact I really believe that had India also been facing the same socio economic problems
as them ; they would be FAR more happy satisfied and peaceful

They DO NOT mind their own failures ; What hurts them is why India succeeded
And ALSO got Kashmir

 

[doppelganger]

They DO NOT mind their own failures ; What hurts them is why India succeeded
And ALSO got Kashmir

To be brutally fair, that's their blood talking and not their faith.

Its a uniquely sub-continental thing. This crabs in a steel pail phenomenon.