The Wisdom Tree
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LOL wisdom prevails, Adux
BTW IceCold, you've taught me something today.
Goodbye.
BTW IceCold, you've taught me something today.
Goodbye.
US threats and Pakistan
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IceCold
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!!!Whatever!!!
1. Yes that makes the weapon ineffective. Specially in arena where radar tech/based on radar is involved. Short range AA missile,radar on the aircraft can be easily be jammed,as you are gonna fight the country which made them.
2. Dogfight may happen but then can you guarantee the Sidewinders are gonna work against American aircrafts?
3. Is SD-10 operational? If yes which aircrafts deploy them? Other than JF-17 no other aircraft in PAF can deploy SD-10 at the current stage. And JF-17 is yet to be FOC.
Compare the experience in USAF for BVR to that of PAF. What do you conclude?
4.Every air-force trains to fight against larger force. Nothing special. As far as India is concern compare the aircraft with BVR capability within IAF to that of PAF. Every type of aircraft in IAF currently deployed are BVR capable. From Mig-21,Jags etc.
How many PAF birds are BVR capable?
5. As I said any thing that depends on American built radar system will the easiest to deal with for USAF. I hope you know about the French giving deflection code for Exocet to the British during the Falklands war.
6. F-117 was shot down because they followed the same path to bomb targets during the operation. The serbs used to find a pattern of very minute detection when F-117 dropped their bombs. They just blindly fired SAM & anti aircraft guns at that particular point and got the target.
It was a failure of strategy not stealth. Do you think USAF will repeat the same?
IceCold
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Why am I getting this feeling that only this time because its pakistan US will not make any mistake. I technically may not be right guy to argue with you on this issue but one thing i do know for sure that US has always been ill advised interms of her strategy when it comes to war take the example from vietnam to iraq to afghanistan, everywere they got their *** kicked.
Your post makes me wonder that according to you pakistan isnt that capable as iraqies were who were flying there planes towards iran when they got shotdown by USAF. Pakistan has professional force and a force that is ready to die for the country, i seriously doubt any american would wana get killed?
SD-10 will not only be incoperated to jfs but to other planes too.
AND since when did mig-21 started to fire a BVR, i thought they couldnt be made to fire a BVR, i dont know if bison upgrade has made them capable.
Ababeel
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It will be a suicide on the part of US to indulge in such a misadventure as to invade Pakistan. We can't imagine the repercussions for this foolish act. However except China and Russia no country in the world can stand against US (in the sense to carryout destructive strikes in the US mainland). By the way it will be a bloody and destructive game for the US armed forces which will send innumerable body bags back to US which in turn will bring the US public pressure on the leadership to end it.
IceCold
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Agreed. Somehow our indian friends dont seem to agree with this fact or perhaps they dont want to agree because afterall its pakistan whos on the line and they would wana love to see the maximum bashing we get.
parihaka
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American forces destroyed the VPA & severely compromised the VC during the Tet Offensive. They utterly destroyed the Iraqi armed forces within a week. Same goes for the Taliban. How is that getting "their *** kicked"?
Marathaman
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Agreed. Somehow our indian friends dont seem to agree with this fact or perhaps they dont want to agree because afterall its pakistan whos on the line and they would wana love to see the maximum bashing we get.
No I agree completely. The US won't go to war with Pakistan in the near future, not because they cannot, but because the public won't let them.
There is the possibility however, that the US will conduct strikes within Pakistan against militants. I guess thats what the real debate is about.
White Baaz
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An article
_____________
IS THE US PREPARING TO ATTACK PAKISTAN?
The Bush Administration may be preparing to lash out at old ally Pakistan, which Washington now blames for its humiliating failures to crush al-Qaida, capture its elusive leaders, or defeat Taliban resistance forces in Afghanistan.
One is immediately reminded of the Vietnam War when the Pentagon, unable to defeat North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong forces, urged invasion of Cambodia.
Sources in Washington say the Pentagon is drawing up plans to attack Pakistans `autonomous tribal region bordering Afghanistan. Limited `hot pursuit ground incursions by US forces based in Afghanistan, intensive air attacks, and special forces raids into Pakistans autonomous tribal region are being evaluated.
This weekend, the US national intelligence chief and other intelligence spokesmen confirmed that strikes against `terrorist targets in Pakistans tribal belt are increasingly possible. These warnings were designed to both further pressure Pakistans beleaguered strongman, President Pervez Musharraf into sending more troops to the tribal areas to fight his own people, and to prepare US public opinion for a possible widening of the Afghanistan war into Pakistan.
Pakistans 27,200 sq km tribal belt, officially known as the Federal Autonomous Tribal Area, or FATA, is home to 3.3 million Pashtun tribesmen. It has become a safe haven for al-Qaida, Taliban, other Afghan resistance groups, and a hotbed of anti-American activity, thanks mostly to the US-led occupation of Afghanistan which drove many militants across the border into Pakistan. Osama bin Laden is very likely sheltered in this region, as US intelligence claims.
I spent a remarkable time in this wild, medieval region during the 1980s and 90s, traveling alone where even Pakistani government officials dared not go, visiting the tribes of Waziristan, Orakzai, Khyber, Chitral, and Kurram, and meeting their chiefs, called `maliks.
These tribal belts are always referred to as`lawless. Pashtun tribesmen could shoot you if they didnt like your looks. Rudyard Kipling warned British Imperial soldiers over a century ago, when fighting cruel, ferocious Pashtun warriors of the Afridi clan, if they fell wounded, `save your last bullet for yourself.
But there is law: the traditional Pashtun tribal code, Pashtunwali, that strictly governs behavior and personal honor. Protecting guests was sacred. I was captivated by this majestic mountain region and wrote of it extensively in my book, `War at the Top of the World.
The 40 million Pashtun called `Pathan by the British are the worlds largest tribal group. Imperial Britain divided them by an artificial border, the Durand Line, which went on to become, like so many other British colonial boundaries, todays Afghanistan-Pakistan border. When Pakistan was created in 1947, the Pashtun were split between that new nation and Afghanistan.
Pakistans Pashtun number 28-30 million, plus an additional 2.5 million refugees from Afghanistan. Pashtuns, one of the British Indian Armys famed `martial races, occupy many senior positions in Pakistans military, intelligence service and bureaucracy, and naturally have much sympathy for their embattled tribal cousins in Afghanistan. The 15 million Pashtun of Afghanistan form that nations largest ethnic group and just under half the population.
The tribal agencys Pashtun reluctantly joined newly-created Pakistan in 1947 under express constitutional guarantee of total autonomy and a ban on Pakistani troops ever entering there.
But under intense US pressure, President Pervez Musharraf violated Pakistans constitution by sending 80,000 federal troops to fight the regions tribes, killing 3,000 of them. In best British imperial tradition, Washington pays Musharraf $100 million monthly to rent his sepoys (native soldiers) to fight Pashtun tribesmen. As a result, Pakistan is fast edging towards civil war, as the bloody siege of Islamabads Red Mosque and a current wave of bombings across the nation show.
The anti-communist Taliban movement is part of the Pashtun people. Taliban fighters move across the artificial Pakistan-Afghanistan border, to borrow a Maoism, like fish through the sea. Osama bin Laden is a hero in the region, and likely shelters there.
The US just increased its reward for bin Laden to $50 million and plans to shower $750 million on the tribal region in an effort to buy loyalty. Bush/Cheney & Co. do not understand that while they can rent President Musharrafs government in Islamabad, many Pashtun value personal honor far more than money, and cannot be bought. That is likely why bin Laden has not yet been betrayed.
Any US attack on Pakistan would be a catastrophic mistake. First, air and ground assaults will succeed only in widening the anti-US war and merging it with Afghanistans resistance to western occupation. US forces are already too over-stretched to get involved in yet another little war.
Second, Pakistans army officers who refuse to be bought may resist a US attack on their homeland, and overthrow the man who allowed it, Gen. Musharraf. A US attack would sharply raise the threat of anti-US extremists seizing control of strategic Pakistan and marginalize those seeking return to democratic government.
Third, a US attack on the tribal areas could re-ignite the old irredentist movement to reunite Pashtun parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan into independent state, `Pashtunistan. That could begin unravelling fragile Pakistan, leaving its nuclear arsenal up for grabs, and India tempted to intervene.
The US military has grown used to attacking small, weak nations like Grenada, Panama, and Iraq. Pakistan, with 163 million people, and a poorly equipped but very tough 550,000-man army, will offer no easy victories. Those Bush Administration officials who foolishly advocate attacking Pakistan are playing with fire.
Copyright Eric S. Margolis 2007
Anybody know about how effective air mines are?? What kind of air defence is Pakistan using their different balloons for? What is the altitude of B-52 and B-2 usually?
_____________
IS THE US PREPARING TO ATTACK PAKISTAN?
The Bush Administration may be preparing to lash out at old ally Pakistan, which Washington now blames for its humiliating failures to crush al-Qaida, capture its elusive leaders, or defeat Taliban resistance forces in Afghanistan.
One is immediately reminded of the Vietnam War when the Pentagon, unable to defeat North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong forces, urged invasion of Cambodia.
Sources in Washington say the Pentagon is drawing up plans to attack Pakistans `autonomous tribal region bordering Afghanistan. Limited `hot pursuit ground incursions by US forces based in Afghanistan, intensive air attacks, and special forces raids into Pakistans autonomous tribal region are being evaluated.
This weekend, the US national intelligence chief and other intelligence spokesmen confirmed that strikes against `terrorist targets in Pakistans tribal belt are increasingly possible. These warnings were designed to both further pressure Pakistans beleaguered strongman, President Pervez Musharraf into sending more troops to the tribal areas to fight his own people, and to prepare US public opinion for a possible widening of the Afghanistan war into Pakistan.
Pakistans 27,200 sq km tribal belt, officially known as the Federal Autonomous Tribal Area, or FATA, is home to 3.3 million Pashtun tribesmen. It has become a safe haven for al-Qaida, Taliban, other Afghan resistance groups, and a hotbed of anti-American activity, thanks mostly to the US-led occupation of Afghanistan which drove many militants across the border into Pakistan. Osama bin Laden is very likely sheltered in this region, as US intelligence claims.
I spent a remarkable time in this wild, medieval region during the 1980s and 90s, traveling alone where even Pakistani government officials dared not go, visiting the tribes of Waziristan, Orakzai, Khyber, Chitral, and Kurram, and meeting their chiefs, called `maliks.
These tribal belts are always referred to as`lawless. Pashtun tribesmen could shoot you if they didnt like your looks. Rudyard Kipling warned British Imperial soldiers over a century ago, when fighting cruel, ferocious Pashtun warriors of the Afridi clan, if they fell wounded, `save your last bullet for yourself.
But there is law: the traditional Pashtun tribal code, Pashtunwali, that strictly governs behavior and personal honor. Protecting guests was sacred. I was captivated by this majestic mountain region and wrote of it extensively in my book, `War at the Top of the World.
The 40 million Pashtun called `Pathan by the British are the worlds largest tribal group. Imperial Britain divided them by an artificial border, the Durand Line, which went on to become, like so many other British colonial boundaries, todays Afghanistan-Pakistan border. When Pakistan was created in 1947, the Pashtun were split between that new nation and Afghanistan.
Pakistans Pashtun number 28-30 million, plus an additional 2.5 million refugees from Afghanistan. Pashtuns, one of the British Indian Armys famed `martial races, occupy many senior positions in Pakistans military, intelligence service and bureaucracy, and naturally have much sympathy for their embattled tribal cousins in Afghanistan. The 15 million Pashtun of Afghanistan form that nations largest ethnic group and just under half the population.
The tribal agencys Pashtun reluctantly joined newly-created Pakistan in 1947 under express constitutional guarantee of total autonomy and a ban on Pakistani troops ever entering there.
But under intense US pressure, President Pervez Musharraf violated Pakistans constitution by sending 80,000 federal troops to fight the regions tribes, killing 3,000 of them. In best British imperial tradition, Washington pays Musharraf $100 million monthly to rent his sepoys (native soldiers) to fight Pashtun tribesmen. As a result, Pakistan is fast edging towards civil war, as the bloody siege of Islamabads Red Mosque and a current wave of bombings across the nation show.
The anti-communist Taliban movement is part of the Pashtun people. Taliban fighters move across the artificial Pakistan-Afghanistan border, to borrow a Maoism, like fish through the sea. Osama bin Laden is a hero in the region, and likely shelters there.
The US just increased its reward for bin Laden to $50 million and plans to shower $750 million on the tribal region in an effort to buy loyalty. Bush/Cheney & Co. do not understand that while they can rent President Musharrafs government in Islamabad, many Pashtun value personal honor far more than money, and cannot be bought. That is likely why bin Laden has not yet been betrayed.
Any US attack on Pakistan would be a catastrophic mistake. First, air and ground assaults will succeed only in widening the anti-US war and merging it with Afghanistans resistance to western occupation. US forces are already too over-stretched to get involved in yet another little war.
Second, Pakistans army officers who refuse to be bought may resist a US attack on their homeland, and overthrow the man who allowed it, Gen. Musharraf. A US attack would sharply raise the threat of anti-US extremists seizing control of strategic Pakistan and marginalize those seeking return to democratic government.
Third, a US attack on the tribal areas could re-ignite the old irredentist movement to reunite Pashtun parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan into independent state, `Pashtunistan. That could begin unravelling fragile Pakistan, leaving its nuclear arsenal up for grabs, and India tempted to intervene.
The US military has grown used to attacking small, weak nations like Grenada, Panama, and Iraq. Pakistan, with 163 million people, and a poorly equipped but very tough 550,000-man army, will offer no easy victories. Those Bush Administration officials who foolishly advocate attacking Pakistan are playing with fire.
Copyright Eric S. Margolis 2007
Anybody know about how effective air mines are?? What kind of air defence is Pakistan using their different balloons for? What is the altitude of B-52 and B-2 usually?
FOR THE SAKE OF MANKIND'S FUTURE I HOPE IT NEVER HAPPENS BUT if there ever is war with the US pakistan conventional forces will not stand a chance. however this will alienate the entire muslim world against the usa.
more importantly the millions of pakistani people who at the moment are well fed and have relatively better creature comforts depending on whatever class they belong to will now have lost most of their infrastructure, family members, sentimental possessions like mother's /child's photographs( dont laugh this is a relative point) and will now have only one desire left and that will be to harm the us and the rest of the western world with whatever they have and however they can even if it takes years. the transformation of the pakistani people at least those who survived will then be towards fundamentalism and they will in all due probability shun western entertainment etc.
the desire for vengence against a real or perceived "INSULT" can be a very powerful motivational force.The US can get more with honey than with vinegar.
BOTTOM LINE: DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE AMERICAN/WESTERN MILITARY MIGHT BUT ALSO DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE WILL RESOLVE AND FURY OF THE MUSSALMAN WHEN HE HAS NOTHING TO LOSE SPECIALLY IF HE ALREADY HAS THE BLOOD OF WARRIORS IN HIS VEINS..... LIKE THE INDO- PAKISTANI PEOPLE.
more importantly the millions of pakistani people who at the moment are well fed and have relatively better creature comforts depending on whatever class they belong to will now have lost most of their infrastructure, family members, sentimental possessions like mother's /child's photographs( dont laugh this is a relative point) and will now have only one desire left and that will be to harm the us and the rest of the western world with whatever they have and however they can even if it takes years. the transformation of the pakistani people at least those who survived will then be towards fundamentalism and they will in all due probability shun western entertainment etc.
the desire for vengence against a real or perceived "INSULT" can be a very powerful motivational force.The US can get more with honey than with vinegar.
BOTTOM LINE: DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE AMERICAN/WESTERN MILITARY MIGHT BUT ALSO DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE WILL RESOLVE AND FURY OF THE MUSSALMAN WHEN HE HAS NOTHING TO LOSE SPECIALLY IF HE ALREADY HAS THE BLOOD OF WARRIORS IN HIS VEINS..... LIKE THE INDO- PAKISTANI PEOPLE.
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