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US & Pakistan Dispute and Tensions over Haqqani group

US has been dealing with Pakistan and vice versa for years . There will be public posturing and chest thumping but they will find a way to work this out. Considering the ground realities and geography, America needs Pakistani cooperation and Pakistan definitely needs US support financially & militarily. Admiral Mullen's response shud be seen in the light of he getting retired in few weeks time. Covertly, US will cut a deal to 'take care' of few in the Haqqani group and Pakistan will moderate its stance on the group.
Personally, I am impressed with Kayani & Co, if it was Musharaf, he would have wilted under pressure.
 
You didnt answer my question.. Why would Pakistan not want the Haqquani problem be solved and why wouldnt it work with USA to solve it..?? If you dont want to attack Haqquanis, why not let USA attack him..??

A solution is a solution - For Pakistan the best solution is, Haqqanis voluntarily leave Pakistan and go to Afghanistan. Fight, farm, belly dance, thats their issue. The solving you're talking about would end up getting in a war with the Haqqanis. They will bomb us. They will fight us. They will raise ideologies against us.

The US IS striking a peace deal with them, then we go and attack them? You know what the Taliban does, it can't get to the US so it starts attacking Pakistan. We have seen this movie - its no fun.
 
If we go by what USA's stand is , its an insurgent group supported completely by a sovereign nation's military infrastructure and human resources. and hence 2 strikes a week (all of them can not be successful) are no big deal...
Given that Al jazeera has video from NW, I believe it should not be hard to provide solid evidence to support ;insurgent groups completely supported by a sovereign nation's military infrastructure and human resources' since all this infrastructure and human resource would have to be pretty visible in North Waziristan. In the absence of such evidence, the claim is poppycock. Not to mention that all this 'infrastructure' would make a pretty easy target for the drones, but that obviously has not been the case, with most drone strikes hitting isolated groups of militants and civilians.

Wont need to.. Will create enough disruption to drastically reduce their ability to attack Afg.. Kind of taking the battle to the enemy instead of always defending..
No, since the Haqqanis will simply relocate to other parts of FATA and Baluchistan, and use anti-American sentiment to garner more recruits from across Pakistan, and therefore continue attacking Afghanistan and US forces in North Waziristan.

Simply because, in Afghanistan, this group is fighting against the govt. In Pakistan this group is allegedly flourishing with govt's help. So the attack though directly on Haqquani network, will be indirectly targeting the parts of Pakistani establishment who are supporting these groups.

Please understand, that unlike in Afghanistan, the objective of US forces will not be to liberate the local population from Taliban.. It will be to keep them off balance and scattered to prevent them from being an effective and hostile cross border force for Afghanistan.
Again, even if what you said was true, which it isn't since there is no credible evidence to support allegations of ISI support for the Haqqanis, the Haqqani network would merely move into other parts of FATA and Pakistan and continue to be 'supported by the Establishment' and therefore 'continue carrying out attacks in Afghanistan', and would in fact have even more recruits and volunteers from across Pakistan, who would be joining to fight a US invasion of Pakistan. Therefore the problem becomes of the same magnitude as the Afghan problem, and the spread of the group outside of NW allows the group to tap into even more resources and become even more entrenched and the problem becomes more intractable.
You are being overly optimistic in your assessment..

Firstly, PA wont be able to stay neutral, simply because it will be impossible to live down the fact that US forces are operating in Pakistani territory without Pakistani consent or resistance...
If the PA does not stay neutral, then it is essentially full fledged war and therefore essentially a requirement to invade, occupy and stabilize all of Pakistan - not sure how exactly that is an attractive proposition or how it does not exacerbate the terrorism and regional instability issue, instead of solving it.
Secondly, if Pakistan allows the US forces to operate in NW, and even if you are right in assessing that the expedition is bound to fail, even then, the havoc wrecked by that operation on the Haqquanis will be large enough for them to not trust Pakistan administration again and be the asset that they were supposed to be for Pakistan in Afg.
The operation is bound to fail, there is no question about that - the facts on the ground cannot be changed just because you shift from Afghanistan to North Waziristan. The TTP showed us that in South Waziristan, where they simply evacuated the agency and sheltered with other tribes. The Haqqanis are respected and have influence across the Tribal belt and links with groups across Pakistan - they will emerge even stronger, and the Pakistani state even weaker.
And how would you determine the success or failure of the punitive expedition.. Its not a lot of army bases that Taliban can attack using hit and run.. It probably would be a series of ingress, attack and egress by fast moving forces with excessive air support.. That is the key difference between Occupation and interdiction forces..
And these 'fast moving forces' would likely inflict similar damage to the drone attacks, which is insignificant. Essentially all of this verbosity of 'fast moving ingress/egress' boils down to is the replication of an air strike with ground troops, unless the intent is to capture an HVT rather than kill him., and therefore the impact of all this 'fast moving ingress/egress' will be the same as the drone strikes - minimal.

If the Haqqanis have been successful in hiding from the drones lurking high, they'll be just as successful in hiding from US assaults by air-borne troops, and if the strikes get too heavy, they'll relocate to other areas and continue their operations.
Even if I agree to this, who do you think its worst for?? USA or Pakistan??
Worse for both - the US ends up with a region that is destabilized beyond repair and that no one will want to pour trillions and trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of troops into to stabilize, rather than working with Pakistan on Pakistan's time table to deal with the Haqqani threat.
 
Again, the 'admission' has been made several times, officially and publicly, by Pakistan over the last few years - your argument and rationale therefore stand exposed for the nonsense they are.
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Though the ISPR did say that the article above reported Abbass's comments out of context, but the fact is that Pakistan maintained long before the current round of propaganda from the US that it had channels of communication (contacts) with the Haqqanis.

Please note that the US is not talking about mere "contacts". There is a direct and public accusation of supporting those elements that planned and executed the recent Kabul attacks, evidence of which has been shared with the ISI directly.

I don't know about you, but that does sound like nonsense to me; it is rather ominous instead.

The reason behind my pointing out past Pakistani comments about 'contacts' with the Haqqanis/Taliban was to debunk the outlandish claim by VCheng that somehow Kayani and the ISPR mentioning this now was 'the first time' and the result of 'irrefutable evidence regarding contacts'.

Anyone who has followed these events for a while would know that, and since VCheng's claims on this issue have been debunked, we can move on.

Au contraire, my posts here are still correct, given the the US accusation is still standing. Let's await further developments before you can claim debunking anything I have said so far.

Oh but I am.

Oh, I am too, equally!

Every single one my posts questions the justification behind the allegations, asks for motive, asks for evidence - you choose to hide behind 'might is right and intelligence cannot be revealed' and therefore 'allegations cannot be publicly substantiated'.

I do not hide behind those truths, for they are self-evident, and hence cannot be hidden.

As pointed out above, it is clear who is choosing hide from supporting their POV with facts and/or logic.

Yes it is. Only each side thinks it is the other! :)

Your positions are:

1. Might is right, and the therefore the US, being a superpower, is right and Pakistan being weaker should capitulate to its demands, regardless of whether those demands are justified.

2. US allegations cannot be publicly justified or substantiated because 'sources will be revealed', very convenient means to avoid supporting the lies and propaganda you and your war-mongering Establishment are propagating.

Time will soon tell if my positions are correct. I hope we are still able to communicate till, and after, then.
 
Why should Pakistan take on the group currently, when it is already overstretched dealing with the TTP and trying to control the existing tribal agencies where it has conducted operations, and is suffering large scale cross border attacks out of Eastern Afghanistan?
Isnt having a foreign terrorist ruling a part of Pakistan a good enough reason?

Also if this is the case, what is all the martyr talk about 170 million fighting for the future of 7 billion.. Why make claims that you believe are impractical to live up to..


Because of the reasons I provided to you in my last response on this thread regarding 'punitive expeditions' - the US cannot eliminate the Haqqani network in the sterile and 'arms length' stand-off strike fashion you seem to think will work miracles.
Whether it will work or not is not some thing You and I can predict and neither of us in in charge of US or Pakistan forces that our choice of method would determine what happens on the ground.. However, what you are saying here is that , neither you would go after the Haqquanis yourself, nor let USA do that.. In any language, that is called obstruction, and since you are obstructing an ally to go after the folks who are causing NATO casualties in Afghanistan, they are well within reason to believe that Pakistan is supporting this group and hence by association is complicit in terror attacks within Afghanistan..
 
A solution is a solution - For Pakistan the best solution is, Haqqanis voluntarily leave Pakistan and go to Afghanistan. Fight, farm, belly dance, thats their issue. The solving you're talking about would end up getting in a war with the Haqqanis. They will bomb us. They will fight us. They will raise ideologies against us.

The US IS striking a peace deal with them, then we go and attack them? You know what the Taliban does, it can't get to the US so it starts attacking Pakistan. We have seen this movie - its no fun.

Ok.. I agree to your point on the best solution.. Now you have a foreign terrorist on your soil who is making terror attacks in your neighbour country.. How do you get the best solution done. You cant expect Haqquanis to get up and leave out of the blue.. Specially since they know that Pakistan is not going to come after them and USA cant hit them in Pakistan as it can hit them in afghanistan. So while your best solution for Pakistan is nice, do you see that happening on its own? and if not, what is Pakistan going to do to get that done?
 
I failed to understand why some Indians are not ready to read and understand the justification given by Pakistanis on Haqqanis. Why do they come up every time with the same question with some modification.
 
A solution is a solution - For Pakistan the best solution is, Haqqanis voluntarily leave Pakistan and go to Afghanistan. Fight, farm, belly dance, thats their issue. The solving you're talking about would end up getting in a war with the Haqqanis. They will bomb us. They will fight us. They will raise ideologies against us.

The US IS striking a peace deal with them, then we go and attack them? You know what the Taliban does, it can't get to the US so it starts attacking Pakistan. We have seen this movie - its no fun.

So how can the conditions that ensure that be created?

A peaceful solution is best for all.
 
I think the key question is why the West is negotiating with terrorists, but asking Pakistan to act against them; admonishing Pakistan when they struck a peace deal with them in 2009?
 
I think the key question is why the West is negotiating with terrorists, but asking Pakistan to act against them; admonishing Pakistan when they struck a peace deal with them in 2009?

No, the KEY question is how can Pakistan best respond so that the situation is resolved.
 
Btw, well done to who ever did this. I was hoping for at least 200 US troops dead, but it's better than nothing. At least it shows us where the war is going.

if 200 us soldiers had been killed b52s would be pounding the hell out of peshawar and north wazirtisan right now.......think carefully before you wish something....
 
Two wrongs cannot make a right. Confront US with evidence instead of supporting foreign fighters directly or indirectly. Ignoring their existance is as good as supporting them as they are hosts in your land.

In case you are unfamiliar with the ever evolving serial,....Haqqnis, like the Al-quaida were once the darlings of Uncle America.
Once Mr Moscow decided to quit, the darlings were divorced and dumped along with their kids on Pakistan. Now those kids are all grown up and seek some form of justice while Uncle America wants Pakistan to punish those kids for a rude awakening.
As for evidence, there is no heavier burden for a country than to conduct the funeral of two dozen brave sons who were killed in a game plan which they probably didn't even know or understand......... The bottom line is ..... these colours will never run. !!!
 
Given that Al jazeera has video from NW, I believe it should not be hard to provide solid evidence to support ;insurgent groups completely supported by a sovereign nation's military infrastructure and human resources' since all this infrastructure and human resource would have to be pretty visible in North Waziristan. In the absence of such evidence, the claim is poppycock. Not to mention that all this 'infrastructure' would make a pretty easy target for the drones, but that obviously has not been the case, with most drone strikes hitting isolated groups of militants and civilians.
There can be 100 reasons for Infrastructure not being visible, ranging from the method of its utilization to complicit reporting. No point really going there..You dont need to set up large, generator backed ammo dumps in the mountains to provide support for guerrilla warfare. Just the right intel and electronic wire transfers suffice most of the time..


No, since the Haqqanis will simply relocate to other parts of FATA and Baluchistan, and use anti-American sentiment to garner more recruits from across Pakistan, and therefore continue attacking Afghanistan and US forces in North Waziristan.

Well, we can chose to differ on this, since in my opinion, every time a group relocates from a stronghold, it decreases its immidiate effectiveness and increases its chances of getting neutralized.. Its not Call of Duty that after you get bombed and killed, you reload a save game and start over..

Again, even if what you said was true, which it isn't since there is no credible evidence to support allegations of ISI support for the Haqqanis, the Haqqani network would merely move into other parts of FATA and Pakistan and continue to be 'supported by the Establishment' and therefore 'continue carrying out attacks in Afghanistan', and would in fact have even more recruits and volunteers from across Pakistan, who would be joining to fight a US invasion of Pakistan. Therefore the problem becomes of the same magnitude as the Afghan problem, and the spread of the group outside of NW allows the group to tap into even more resources and become even more entrenched and the problem becomes more intractable.
Not really as explained above.. Simply because its not an approach of attacking and defeating them with an aim of holding land.. Its coming in, destroying what ever is possible and getting out. Then coming back in later to destroy some more.. The one key difference from Afg is that here, it is the US forces that will be the guerrilla attackers and Taliban who will be trying to hold on to the land. So while this will not kill off the group, it will keep it busy enough to prevent it from being a large enough headache in Afg..

If the PA does not stay neutral, then it is essentially full fledged war and therefore essentially a requirement to invade, occupy and stabilize all of Pakistan - not sure how exactly that is an attractive proposition or how it does not exacerbate the terrorism and regional instability issue, instead of solving it.
You are assuming that the only way PA will go non neutral is by siding with the terrorists.. Thats not a good mind set in my view.. But even assuming that, still there is no real need to occupy and stabilize whole or any part of Pakistan.. The same stand off weapons (though at a different scale) can erode Paksitan's ability to wage a counter offensive pretty quickly. As a matter of fact, rendering PA ineffective will be a lot more easier than defeating the Haqquani group since PA is mostly a conventional force which can be easily overwhelmed by the technical superiority of American forces in the theater..

The operation is bound to fail, there is no question about that - the facts on the ground cannot be changed just because you shift from Afghanistan to North Waziristan. The TTP showed us that in South Waziristan, where they simply evacuated the agency and sheltered with other tribes. The Haqqanis are respected and have influence across the Tribal belt and links with groups across Pakistan - they will emerge even stronger, and the Pakistani state even weaker.
Again, the comparison between Afg and NW is not correct. The objectives are a mile apart. Afghanistan, NATO has to hold ground. In Pakistan, they just need to destroy as much of the infrastructure as they can to interdict the terrorist network. Also the operation in SW is more similar to the NATO ops in Afg as the objective there was also to expel the insurgents and hold ground..

And these 'fast moving forces' would likely inflict similar damage to the drone attacks, which is insignificant. Essentially all of this verbosity of 'fast moving ingress/egress' boils down to is the replication of an air strike with ground troops, unless the intent is to capture an HVT rather than kill him., and therefore the impact of all this 'fast moving ingress/egress' will be the same as the drone strikes - minimal.
Again, its a difference of opinion.. I would though lean towards the theory that the damage from an average of 2 missile hits in a week can not compared with a sustained round the clock offensive on the enemy by means of air and boots on the ground..


If the Haqqanis have been successful in hiding from the drones lurking high, they'll be just as successful in hiding from US assaults by air-borne troops, and if the strikes get too heavy, they'll relocate to other areas and continue their operations.
As I said before, every relocation brings its own perils along with it.. It takes time and effort to shift your base and be operational from a new one. And thats what keeps the enemy unbalanced and ineffective.. A pretty good objective to have. Obviously I am assuming that the Pakistan administration will not allow Haqquani and company establishing bases in areas like Lahore and Islamabad..

Worse for both - the US ends up with a region that is destabilized beyond repair and that no one will want to pour trillions and trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of troops into to stabilize, rather than working with Pakistan on Pakistan's time table to deal with the Haqqani threat.
US doesn't end up with anything.. Its not their home ground. As long as their home base is protected, why would they care whether the region is stable or not..

Pakistan's timetable is just an eye wash.. Since there is no time table in reality.. Its just an ever procrastination "NOT NOW".. Which further deepens the suspicion towards the suspected complicity of the Pakistani state...
 
Senator: Consider military action against Pakistan


26 September,2011

A Republican on the Senate Armed Services Committee said Sunday that the US should consider military action against Pakistan if it continues to support terrorist attacks against American troops in Afghanistan.



"The sovereign nation of Pakistan is engaging in hostile acts against the United States and our ally :offtopic: Afghanistan that must cease, Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina told "Fox News Sunday."



He said if experts decided that the US needs to "elevate its response," he was confident there would be strong bipartisan support in Congress for such action. Graham did not call for military action but said "all options" should be considered. He said assistance to Pakistan should be reconfigured and that the US should no longer designate an amount of aid for Pakistan but have a more "transactional relationship" with the country.



"They re killing American soldiers," he said. "If they continue to embrace terrorism as a part of their national strategy, we re going to have to put all options on the table, including defending our troops."



In testimony last week to Graham s committee, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Mike Mullen, said Pakistan s powerful military intelligence agency had backed extremists in planning and executing the assault on the US Embassy in Afghanistan and a truck bomb attack that wounded 77 American soldiers. Both occurred this month.



Mullen contended that the Haqqani insurgent network "acts as a veritable arm" of Pakistan s Inter-Services Intelligence agency as it undermined US-Pakistan relations, already tenuous because of the war in Afghanistan. Pakistan exports violence, Mullen said, and threatens any success in the 10-year-old war.



Graham said Pakistan does cooperate with the US in actions against al-Qaida. But he said the Pakistani military feels threatened by a democracy:cheesy: in Afghanistan and is betting that the Taliban will come back there.



"The best solution is for Pakistan to fight all forms of terrorism, embrace working with us so that we can deal with terrorism along their border, because it is the biggest threat to stability," he said. "


Dunya News: World:-Senator: Consider military action against Pakistan


Wake up Pakistan, you are no more democratic & damn ally :enjoy:
 
Due to India's obsession with Pakistan

My friend you are a better poster then this...i know it for a fact but some of your comments just make me wonder what the heck is gone wrong...a bad day..a boring day or what???....

do we need to say that why any development in Pakistan-US equation related to AF should be reported in Indian newspapers??? Is this even a logical question??? Are you saying similar news are ignored in Pakistan media???

heck i am explaining this and we are in a era of globalization :no:...
 

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