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Turkish Air Force (HVKK)

dude... if we start 10 years later and finish it by 2040 than it means if we start now we'll finish by 2030 and who's to say that we won't be better prepared by 2025 for the undertaking of such a project?

I understand that you're excited but please use your brain, this is not an emergency stop-gap project

Do you even understand what's happening all around Turkiye right now? Do you realise we shot down a Russian jet? Not only do we need the F-16 replacement ASAP, but we need to start design work ASAP so that, if there is a war, we already have developed enough design capability to rush something to production quickly.

As to the rest of your post - no offense but you have no clue what you're talking about, and you're too obstinate to learn.
 
Do you understand how stupid it is for a stealth aircraft to turn on its radar in a war? LPI or not, unless it wants to broadcast its position to everyone, it would need to use passive sensors only or radar data from another source.
Depends on the radar. An AESA in LPI mode would not be broadcasting to everyone.

Try this...

World's most advanced fighter jet joins battle against ISIS in Syria for first time | Page 2

The F-35 is only stealthy from the frontal aspect.
Unless you have hard measurement data, please do not say things like this.

For a stealth aircraft, the size of the airframe has very little to do with RCS - the stealthiest known aircraft is the B-2, and it's also by far the biggest. For stealth aircraft, airframe size affects IR signature, not RCS.
Size does matter. If you put the radar directly either on top or underside of the B-2, its RCS probably probably larger than the B-52. It depends on the aspect angle between the 'stealth' target and the seeking radar. This is why the B-2 will NOT perform a banking maneuver to turn but rather create asymmetric drag on one wing tip to change heading.

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See the two arrows in the above image ?

What the B-2 will do is split one wing tip but not the other. One aileron up. One aileron down. Asymmetric drag will create a heading change. This method is to minimize any large body movement that may create a spike in aspect RCS.

There are three rules in designing a low radar observable body.

Controls of:

- Quantity of radiators
- Array of radiators
- Modes of radiation

Anything that is in the radar beam becomes a radiator, which mean the whole aircraft itself is a radiator. On the aircraft, any protrusion, from a small screw head to a radio antenna to a fin, that is impacted by the radar beam is a radiator. So the first rule is control the quantity of this.

But since there will always be protrusions, the second rule means to control how they are positioned in relationships to each other.

Modes of radiation means reflected signals behaves differently from a plate versus a curvature.

All three rules will never be in balanced due to the complexity of a body like an aircraft or a ship or a car, but they should always be considered at every stage of design. For a large aircraft like the B-2 that have such a low RCS, the designers obeyed all three rules by eliminating the vertical stabilators, install curvatures whenever possible, shielding the engines, etc.

Lastly, it's been explained to you numerous times that the F-35 can't perform the roles the TFX will perform. Being multi-role doesn't mean it performs every possible role and does it well.
Yes, it does.

The goal is to raise the bars on all those tasks, just like how the F-16 raised the bars on how to be a multi-role fighter.
 
Do you even understand what's happening all around Turkiye right now? Do you realise we shot down a Russian jet? Not only do we need the F-16 replacement ASAP, but we need to start design work ASAP so that, if there is a war, we already have developed enough design capability to rush something to production quickly.
We can't.. that's my answer

we don't even have the basic design yet, the idea that we may develop this plane before the current political turmoil ends is kind of insane. Both Syrian and Ukrainian civil wars will be over by 2023. Right now the best option for us is to buy more F16s
As to the rest of your post - no offense but you have no clue what you're talking about, and you're too obstinate to learn.
if the point got across that's all it matters. I'm used to your arrogance.
I'm just glad this ended before the name calling began this time.

@gambit
thanks man
 
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Depends on the radar. An AESA in LPI mode would not be broadcasting to everyone.

Yes it would - to an advanced adversary. LPI detection is being heavily developed and is quite likely currently possible for an advanced adversary with networked radars.

Unless you have hard measurement data, please do not say things like this.

Unless you know what you're talking about, don't tell people what not to say. There's a lot an expert can tell about a plane's RCS through observation and a bit of math. Here, learn something: Assessing Joint Strike Fighter Defence Penetration Capabilities

Size does matter. If you put the radar directly either on top or underside of the B-2, its RCS probably probably larger than the B-52.

Do you understand what a non-sequitur is? Because you just demonstrated one. The second sentence there has nothing to do with the first. The fact that stealth aircraft have different RCS from different aspects has nothing to do with the question of size. Incidentally, it's amusing that you believe the B-2's RCS from the bottom aspect is higher than a B-52's. Anyway, you don't need to take my word for it - I quote Ben Rich's "Skunk Works": - "with [stealth surfaces] the amount of radar energy returning to the sender is independent of the target’s size. A small airplane, a bomber, an aircraft carrier, all with the same shape, will have identical radar cross sections."

Yes, it does.

Wow. Just...wow. I honestly don't believe someone that believes something so nonsensical can be reasoned with. Last post you.
 
Do you understand what a non-sequitur is? Because you just demonstrated one. The second sentence there has nothing to do with the first. The fact that stealth aircraft have different RCS from different aspects has nothing to do with the question of size. Incidentally, it's amusing that you believe the B-2's RCS from the bottom aspect is higher than a B-52's. Anyway, you don't need to take my word for it - I quote Ben Rich's "Skunk Works": - "with [stealth surfaces] the amount of radar energy returning to the sender is independent of the target’s size. A small airplane, a bomber, an aircraft carrier, all with the same shape, will have identical radar cross sections."
The ENTIRE and CORRECT quote, as on page 33 of the paperback version of Skunk Works, which sits on my bookshelf, is...

He told me later that he was surprised to learn that with flat surfaces the amount of radar energy returning to the sender is independent of the target’s size. A small airplane, a bomber, an aircraft carrier, all with the same shape, will have identical radar cross sections.

The relevant words are 'with flat surfaces' and 'all with the same shape'.

The 'he' in that passage referred to Kelly Johnson, who, as remembered by Ben Rich, talked to Denys Overholser, the engineer who dissected Pyotr Ufimtsev's math and who came up with the final SHAPE for the F-117.

What that passage mean, in the technical sense, is that the 'small airplane, a bomber, an aircraft carrier' must be composed of flat surfaces and all must be of identical shape. Further, the position of the seeking radar must also be at identical location and distance PER body, meaning that if the seeking radar is perpendicular to and 5 km away from the small airplane, it must also be perpendicular to and 5 km away from the aircraft carrier. It cannot be even one degree and one meter off from body to body. So in hypothesis, not theory, all bodies would have the same RCS. This hypothesis was never proven to become a theory simply because no one yet built these bodies to be of the same material and shape.

But if we take a specific body from that hypothetical list and rotate it, there will be different RCS values simply because the body will present different shapes to the seeking radar. Yes, DIFFERENT SHAPES.

Look at it this way -- a square plate.

Assume I label the plate with 'top' and 'bottom' sides. If I rotate the plate so that 'top' is visible to you, you will see a square. But if I rotate the plate so neither 'top' nor 'bottom' is visible to you, the shape you will see is a line or an edge. Under radar bombardment, the edge will produce the least reflections while 'top' and 'bottom' will produce the most. What Ben Rich, Kelly Johnson, and Denys Overholser was talking about was 'specular reflections'. Look it up.

Specular reflection off and edge will not be the same as off a flat surface. Further, specular reflection off a leading edge will not be the same as off a trailing edge.

Let us return to our plate and assume it to be one meter area.

If the seeking radar signal is perpendicular to one edge, the highest specular reflection will be from the edge that is facing the radar, or the leading edge. Then there will be some surface traveling waves which will produce weaker specular signals and these are usually called 'leaky' or 'radiated' signals. Since our plate is finite at one meter area, eventually these surface traveling waves will meet another edge, the trailing edge. The signals that will come off this location will be called 'diffraction' signals.

So from an edge point of view, we see in order of signal strength:

- Specular reflection
- Leaky or radiated
- Diffraction

In an EM clean and isolated environment like a lab, the seeking radar will see specular, some leaky, but no diffraction, but mathematically, all three should add up to equal the original signal strength.

To compound the already complex subject of signal behaviors, the leading edge will produce diffraction signals as well, then there is the issue of signal characteristics such as amplitude, freq, and pulse, if pulses are used.

Not only did you have the incomplete passage from Ben Rich, it looks to me you have neither education and experience in the subject in discussion. I have no experience in designing 'stealth' aircrafts, but I have a combined nearly 19 yrs of aviation and avionics experience in and out of the USAF. I know what 9 gs in an F-16 felt like since I was on it for 5 yrs. Before the F-16, I was on the F-111 from RAF Upper Heyford, UK. Out of the USAF, I used to design field radar tests to detect 'low altitude non-piloted aircrafts' for a company that will remain unnamed.

So yes, I do not have to take your words for it since you have nothing relevant, especially since you could not even get the book's passage correct probably because you never read it in the first place.
 
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@gambit dude we need you more often around here :)

Do you understand what a non-sequitur is? Because you just demonstrated one. The second sentence there has nothing to do with the first.
How did you fail to connect the dots there I don't even know. o_O
 
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He is a former fighter jet pilot. Having people with actual experience has its benefits :)
He didn't need to say that really, his posts speak louder...

never in my time on this forum since 2010 have I read one of gambit's posts and haven't learned something I didn't know before. And that's saying a lot because you know me, like literally half my posts are "shut up you idiot",
Because you know, most people are idiots. They can't help but have a high opinion of themselves.

and by idiots I don't mean those who say "F35 is slow" although that's a stupid statement.
It's when they refuse to listen and correct themselves it becomes frustrating for me.
 
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Boeing Delivers Final Peace Eagle AEW&C Aircraft to Turkey
Turkish fleet reaches full strength with four aircraft and ground support systems

KONYA, Turkey, Dec. 9, 2015 – Boeing [NYSE: BA] delivered the fourth and final Peace Eagle Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) aircraft to the Turkish Air Force at Konya Air Base today, completing the Turkish AEW&C fleet and enhancing Turkey’s airspace surveillance and battle management capabilities.

This final aircraft includes upgraded software for the platform and the final element of the ground support segment, the Software Support Center (SSC). Previously delivered Peace Eagles will receive the upgraded software soon.

Boeing worked with Turkish industry partners Turkish Aerospace Industries, Turkish Airlines, HAVELSAN and ASELSAN to complete the delivery of the final aircraft as well as establish technology capabilities like the Software Support Center, updated mission simulator software and mission support center software.

“Turkey is currently the only nation in this region with the AEW&C capability. By combining Boeing’s innovative engineering with the expertise provided by local Turkish industry partners, we’ve delivered an advanced world-class airborne surveillance system to our customer,” said Aysem Sargin Isil, managing director, Boeing Turkey.

Turkey, Australia and South Korea operate AEW&C platforms.

Based on Boeing’s 737-700 commercial airplane, the 737 AEW&C aircraft’s advanced radar and 10 state-of-the-art mission crew consoles can track airborne and maritime targets simultaneously. The battle management capabilities allow mission crew to direct offensive and defensive forces while maintaining continuous surveillance of the operational area.

Boeing Delivers Final Peace Eagle AEW&C Aircraft to Turkey

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