What's new

The Myth of Sedition and its use as a Political Tool

Joe Shearer

PROFESSIONAL
Joined
Apr 19, 2009
Messages
27,493
Reaction score
162
Country
India
Location
India
What is truth, said jesting Pilate, and would not pause for an answer.

This thread is only to ask ourselves why we keep flailing ourselves with this dreadful law, and stoking internal controversies about the loyalty of this or that individual, or of this or that group, using this law as the poker.

I hope that members will leave alone the other, identical thread, and allow those who do not wish the neighbouring country to be reduced to radioactive cinders to have a little space of their own.

Call it sentimental; call it mawkish, call it whatever you will. Please just stay away and take off your prejudices at that door, before entering. Here, carry your own shillelagh; the twinkle in your eye is optional, since many of us are observant and don't drink.

Once again, this thread is for the serious stuff. The other thread is for travelogues.

@Arsalan


#SeditionThis: Why I believe Pakistanis are the most gracious people in the world
by Harsh Mander
Published 5 hours ago. Updated 4 hours ago.
A mother’s wish to see her childhood home led to a journey of a lifetime into what many in India consider to be enemy land.
article-yhlemtycns-1460994522.jpeg



My mother was forced to leave behind the city of her birth, Rawalpindi, when she was just 18 because of the tumultuous ruptures of Partition. She had never returned. When she was to turn 75, I thought the best gift I could give her was to take her, if it was at all possible, to the city and to the home in which she was born.

I emailed my friends in Pakistan tentatively with my plan. They were immediately very welcoming. “Just get her visa, leave the rest to us”, they said. I applied for visas for my parents and the rest of my family. It seemed then a small miracle that we got these easily. I booked our flight tickets, and before long we were on our way.

Warm welcome
Our flight landed at Lahore, and our friends drove us from the airport to their home in Islamabad. I noticed that my mother was initially a little tense. Maybe it was memories of the violence of her exile; maybe it was just the idea that this was now a foreign land, and for many in India the enemy land. I watched my mother gradually relax on the road journey to Islamabad, as she delighted in hearing my friends and the car driver speak the Punjabi of her childhood, and as she watched the altered landscape of her journey. Islamabad of course did not exist when she lived in the Punjab of her days.

In Islamabad, my friends invited to their homes many of their associates with their parents. They organised evenings of Punjabi poetry and music, which my parents relished. Our friends drove us to Murree, the hill-station in which my mother spent many pleasant summers as a child.

My mother had just one more request. Could she go to see the colony in Rawalpindi where she was born and spent her childhood in? My father wanted to also visit his college, the famous Gordon College in Rawalpindi.

A homecoming
My mother recalled that the name of the residential colony in which she lived as a child was called Gawal Mandi. My friends knew it well; it was now an upmarket upper middle-class enclave. When we reached there, my mother tried to locate the house of her childhood. It seemed impossible. Everything was new: most of the old houses had been rebuilt and opulent new structures had come up in their place. She located the building that had housed their gurudwara. It had now been converted into a health centre. But we had almost despaired of actually finding her childhood house. We doubted if it was even standing all these years later.

We were leaving when suddenly my mother pointed to the filigree work on the balconies of one of the old houses. My mother said: “I remember it because my father was very proud of the designs. He said there was none like it in the neighbourhood."

Taking a chance, we knocked tentatively on the door of the house. A middle-aged man opened it, and asked us who we wanted to meet. My mother said apologetically, “We are so sorry to trouble you, and intrude suddenly in this way. But I lived as a child in Gawal Mandi, before Partition, when we had to leave for India. I think this maybe was our home”.

The house owner’s response was spontaneous and immediate. “Mataji, why do you say that this was your home?” he said. “It continues to be your home even today. You are most welcome.” And he led us all in.

Before long, my mother confirmed that this was indeed her childhood home. She went from room to room, and then to the terrace, almost in a trance, recalling all the while fragments of her childhood memories in various corners of this house. For months after we returned to Delhi, she would tell me that recollections of the house returned to her in her dreams.

Half an hour later, we thanked the house-owners and said that we would be on our way. But they would not hear of it. We were told: “You have come to your childhood home, then how can we let you go without you having a meal with us here?” They overruled all our protestations, and lunch was prepared for around eight members of our party, including not just my family but also our Pakistani hosts. Only when they were sure that we had eaten our fill, and more, did they allow us to leave.

Caravan to Pakistan
After we returned to India, news of our adventure spread quickly among family and friends. The next year, my mother-in-law, a wheel-chair user, requested that we take her also to Pakistan to visit her childhood home, this time in Gujranwala. Given the joys of my parents’ successful visit, I was more confident. Then many elderly aunts and an elderly uncle joined the trip, and in the end my wife and I accompanied six older people to Pakistan. Our experience this time was very similar to that of the previous year. The owner of their old ancestral haveli in Gujranwala village took my mother-in-law around the sprawling property on her wheel-chair, and after we had eaten with them asked her, “Would you not like to check outyour farm-lands?”

On both visits, wherever my wife visited shops, for clothes, footwear or handicrafts, if the shopkeepers recognised her to be Indian, they would invariably insist on a hefty concession on the price. “You are our guests," they would say. “How can we make a profit from our guests?”

As news of these visits travelled further, my associates from an NGO Ashagram working in the small town of Barwani in Madhya Pradesh for the care and rights of persons living with leprosy, with which I have had a long association – demanded that I organise a visit to Pakistan for them too.

Once again, the Pakistan High Commission granted them visas. There was only one catch this time: all of them were vegetarian. They enjoyed greatly the week they spent in Pakistan, except for the food. Every night they would set out looking for a wayside shop to buy fruit juice. Each night they found a new shop, and each night without exception, the shopkeeper refused to accept any money for the fruit juice. “We will not charge money from our guests from India”, they would say each time. This happened for a full week.

I have travelled to many countries in the world in the 60 years of my life. I have never encountered a people as gracious as those in Pakistan.

This declaration is my latest act of sedition.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/harsh-mander-commits-sedition.446516/#ixzz4IoBXpQBK
 
What is truth, said jesting Pilate, and would not pause for an answer.

This thread is only to ask ourselves why we keep flailing ourselves with this dreadful law, and stoking internal controversies about the loyalty of this or that individual, or of this or that group, using this law as the poker.

I hope that members will leave alone the other, identical thread, and allow those who do not wish the neighbouring country to be reduced to radioactive cinders to have a little space of their own.

Call it sentimental; call it mawkish, call it whatever you will. Please just stay away and take off your prejudices at that door, before entering. Here, carry your own shillelagh; the twinkle in your eye is optional, since many of us are observant and don't drink.

Once again, this thread is for the serious stuff. The other thread is for travelogues.

@Arsalan


#SeditionThis: Why I believe Pakistanis are the most gracious people in the world
by Harsh Mander
Published 5 hours ago. Updated 4 hours ago.
A mother’s wish to see her childhood home led to a journey of a lifetime into what many in India consider to be enemy land.
article-yhlemtycns-1460994522.jpeg



My mother was forced to leave behind the city of her birth, Rawalpindi, when she was just 18 because of the tumultuous ruptures of Partition. She had never returned. When she was to turn 75, I thought the best gift I could give her was to take her, if it was at all possible, to the city and to the home in which she was born.

I emailed my friends in Pakistan tentatively with my plan. They were immediately very welcoming. “Just get her visa, leave the rest to us”, they said. I applied for visas for my parents and the rest of my family. It seemed then a small miracle that we got these easily. I booked our flight tickets, and before long we were on our way.

Warm welcome
Our flight landed at Lahore, and our friends drove us from the airport to their home in Islamabad. I noticed that my mother was initially a little tense. Maybe it was memories of the violence of her exile; maybe it was just the idea that this was now a foreign land, and for many in India the enemy land. I watched my mother gradually relax on the road journey to Islamabad, as she delighted in hearing my friends and the car driver speak the Punjabi of her childhood, and as she watched the altered landscape of her journey. Islamabad of course did not exist when she lived in the Punjab of her days.

In Islamabad, my friends invited to their homes many of their associates with their parents. They organised evenings of Punjabi poetry and music, which my parents relished. Our friends drove us to Murree, the hill-station in which my mother spent many pleasant summers as a child.

My mother had just one more request. Could she go to see the colony in Rawalpindi where she was born and spent her childhood in? My father wanted to also visit his college, the famous Gordon College in Rawalpindi.

A homecoming
My mother recalled that the name of the residential colony in which she lived as a child was called Gawal Mandi. My friends knew it well; it was now an upmarket upper middle-class enclave. When we reached there, my mother tried to locate the house of her childhood. It seemed impossible. Everything was new: most of the old houses had been rebuilt and opulent new structures had come up in their place. She located the building that had housed their gurudwara. It had now been converted into a health centre. But we had almost despaired of actually finding her childhood house. We doubted if it was even standing all these years later.

We were leaving when suddenly my mother pointed to the filigree work on the balconies of one of the old houses. My mother said: “I remember it because my father was very proud of the designs. He said there was none like it in the neighbourhood."

Taking a chance, we knocked tentatively on the door of the house. A middle-aged man opened it, and asked us who we wanted to meet. My mother said apologetically, “We are so sorry to trouble you, and intrude suddenly in this way. But I lived as a child in Gawal Mandi, before Partition, when we had to leave for India. I think this maybe was our home”.

The house owner’s response was spontaneous and immediate. “Mataji, why do you say that this was your home?” he said. “It continues to be your home even today. You are most welcome.” And he led us all in.

Before long, my mother confirmed that this was indeed her childhood home. She went from room to room, and then to the terrace, almost in a trance, recalling all the while fragments of her childhood memories in various corners of this house. For months after we returned to Delhi, she would tell me that recollections of the house returned to her in her dreams.

Half an hour later, we thanked the house-owners and said that we would be on our way. But they would not hear of it. We were told: “You have come to your childhood home, then how can we let you go without you having a meal with us here?” They overruled all our protestations, and lunch was prepared for around eight members of our party, including not just my family but also our Pakistani hosts. Only when they were sure that we had eaten our fill, and more, did they allow us to leave.

Caravan to Pakistan
After we returned to India, news of our adventure spread quickly among family and friends. The next year, my mother-in-law, a wheel-chair user, requested that we take her also to Pakistan to visit her childhood home, this time in Gujranwala. Given the joys of my parents’ successful visit, I was more confident. Then many elderly aunts and an elderly uncle joined the trip, and in the end my wife and I accompanied six older people to Pakistan. Our experience this time was very similar to that of the previous year. The owner of their old ancestral haveli in Gujranwala village took my mother-in-law around the sprawling property on her wheel-chair, and after we had eaten with them asked her, “Would you not like to check outyour farm-lands?”

On both visits, wherever my wife visited shops, for clothes, footwear or handicrafts, if the shopkeepers recognised her to be Indian, they would invariably insist on a hefty concession on the price. “You are our guests," they would say. “How can we make a profit from our guests?”

As news of these visits travelled further, my associates from an NGO Ashagram working in the small town of Barwani in Madhya Pradesh for the care and rights of persons living with leprosy, with which I have had a long association – demanded that I organise a visit to Pakistan for them too.

Once again, the Pakistan High Commission granted them visas. There was only one catch this time: all of them were vegetarian. They enjoyed greatly the week they spent in Pakistan, except for the food. Every night they would set out looking for a wayside shop to buy fruit juice. Each night they found a new shop, and each night without exception, the shopkeeper refused to accept any money for the fruit juice. “We will not charge money from our guests from India”, they would say each time. This happened for a full week.

I have travelled to many countries in the world in the 60 years of my life. I have never encountered a people as gracious as those in Pakistan.

This declaration is my latest act of sedition.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/harsh-mander-commits-sedition.446516/#ixzz4IoBXpQBK


If one can use Race, Language, Economic Class, Caste/Profession & Religion as political tools what is wrong in using Nationalism, Patriotism and Security as political tools?


Everything is fair game in War and Politics.

upload_2016-8-30_6-49-33.png
 
Sedition as per the dictionary is " incitement of resistance against a lawful authority"

It does not nor ever will it include the genuine liking or friendships between individual members of enemy states in their personal capacity so long as that friendship is not misused to harm the country's interests.

I cannot imagine why this lady would think that acknowledging that the Pakistanis she met in her individual capacity were gracious is an act of sedition!

The Indian government has an issue with the Pakistani government policies not with individual Pakistanis.
 
Sedition as per the dictionary is " incitement of resistance against a lawful authority"

It does not nor ever will it include the genuine liking or friendships between individual members of enemy states in their personal capacity so long as that friendship is not misused to harm the country's interests.

I cannot imagine why this lady would think that acknowledging that the Pakistanis she met in her individual capacity were gracious is an act of sedition!

The Indian government has an issue with the Pakistani government policies not with individual Pakistanis.

And which lady might that be?
 
I think we should scrap the sedition law and bring a law for Anti national activities. There is a space for dissent in a democracy but it should be within the 4 walls of the constitution

I know that many left liberals consider Directive Principles of State Policy as bumkum because they dont agree with concepts like UCC, Cow Protection etc. Even if we leave those out (I dont agree with that but just to be accomodative of the leftists) we should not leave out fundamental duties which are required for every citizen

So Anti National activities will include those who are not following fundamental duties of the citizen of this country. Fundamental duties like

  • To abide by the Constitution and respect its ideals and institutions, the National Flag and the National Anthem- No more banning of the singing of the national anthem because it hurts your "religious sentiments". Show proper respect to the flag and anthem. Salute the flag, stand when anthem is played. Dont say falg is just a piece of cloth (like Arundhati Roy)
  • To cherish and follow the noble ideals which inspired our national struggle for freedom - No mocking of freedom fighters
  • To uphold and protect the sovereignty, unity and integrity of India - no Bharat tere tukde honge inshaallah, no crying crocodile tears for terrorists and seperatists
  • To defend the country and render national service when called upon to do so No mocking of the armed forces and refusing to join the Army when called upon to do so
  • To promote harmony and the spirit of common brotherhood amongst all the people of India transcending religious, linguistic and regional or sectional diversities; to renounce practices derogatory to the dignity of women No mocking of the beliefs of minorities (AND MAJORITIES)Right now leftitists can denegrate hindus and get away with it.
  • To value and preserve the rich heritage of our composite culture No mocking our cultural heritage (see the point above)
  • To protect and improve the natural environment including forests, lakes, rivers and wild life, and to have compassion for living creatures
  • To develop the scientific temper, humanism and the spirit of inquiry and reform - no blocking the progress of scienc and technology because of your sentiments
  • To safeguard public property and to abjure violence
  • To strive towards excellence in all spheres of individual and collective activity so that the nation constantly rises to higher levels of endeavour and achievement
    • Who is a parent or guardian to provide opportunities for education to his child or ward, as the case may be, between the age of six to fourteen years

IF such an Anti Nationalism law is brought then a lot of people can and rightfully so be booked under it. Recent examples include Kanhaiya Kumar, Umar Khalid, Arundhati roy, whole host of leftitists politicians and media persons
 
Sedition as per the dictionary is " incitement of resistance against a lawful authority"

It does not nor ever will it include the genuine liking or friendships between individual members of enemy states in their personal capacity so long as that friendship is not misused to harm the country's interests.

I cannot imagine why this lady would think that acknowledging that the Pakistanis she met in her individual capacity were gracious is an act of sedition!

The Indian government has an issue with the Pakistani government policies not with individual Pakistanis.

Said it? Now listen, they were given the permission to visit Pakistan every single time. Visa is never issued by one individual but authorities. No?
Secondly, why would Indian government have issues with Pakistan polices? Accept it or not, it is Indian government sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan. And can NOT simply see Pakistan moving forward and progressing.
Pakistan was considered the best hosts wordwide for a long time and even today. Hospitality of Pakistanis is mentioned by every individual who visits Pakistan.
Sir, not necessarily everything should be criticized. Nothing wrong in appreciating good words and a country who gives you warm welcome. :)

Have a good day!

------

@Joe Shearer. Good share. :tup: :)
 
Last edited:
It is usualy the other way round. Anyone who has an opinion other than his @Joe Shearer shuts them down. He is a quint essential left liberal


You have an opinion too:enjoy:

About him, and things in general!

You will find me leftist, he finds me suspect bhakt ask @Joe Shearer if he does not suspect me as such!

But why are we so busy trying to label pertinent questions and views as belonging to an ideology?

But you only see the facade, look deeper. He is neither a left nor a right. He defends India yet criticises it, equally passionate in both. Is that not, what India is about? Accepting your shortfalls and not hiding behind it, yet standing by your country where required? Or is nationalism and patriotism merely a charade to say yes to everything in the name of nation which may be contrary to the nation itself? How is one not a citizen if (s)he can not criticise the country for it's policy but at the same time stands to defend the nation every other time? I have, a lot to say on that. But not now. Later.:big_boss:

Anyways merely passing by .. will keep looking at this thread ... would love to see people engage him on this one :D:D

Oh by the ways, Arundhati Roy? Why did the government of the day, BJP, not revoke the passport when she publicly stated that she renounces her citizenship of India in the aftermath of the Nuclear Test? Why, indeed, did she not surrender her passport and still uses it? Why Geelani uses it? Or why, indeed, every member of Congress and CPI which sent delegations to China and South Africa to condemn Nuclear Tests and show that they are not part of it subsequent to Pokhran-2? Why indeed, not the BJP hierarchy till date, which failed to act against these 'anti-national' acts?

Think!
 
Oh by the ways, Arundhati Roy? Why did the government of the day, BJP, not revoke the passport when she publicly stated that she renounces her citizenship of India in the aftermath of the Nuclear Test? Why, indeed, did she not surrender her passport and still uses it? Why Geelani uses it? Or why, indeed, every member of Congress and CPI which sent delegations to China and South Africa to condemn Nuclear Tests and show that they are not part of it subsequent to Pokhran-2? Why indeed, not the BJP hierarchy till date, which failed to act against these 'anti-national' acts?
Dont know about that but in my view she is a prime candidate for Anti Nationlism. She should be locked up and the key thrown away
 
Dont know about that but in my view she is a prime candidate for Anti Nationlism. She should be locked up and the key thrown away

Yet she roams the street, right? Why?

Is India, as a nation state, so weak that it can not accept criticism? What do you think? I am seriously surprised at the amount of attention which people receive for being 'anti-national' and 'seditious'. Why can't one ignore them? Why give them the bandwidth?

If you do not agree with someone, is it necessary to react to them? Won't it be better to ignore them and let the security agencies do the necessary work?

You deny them the bandwidth and the sound bytes they desire, allow them a 'free hand' wherein their supporters and fellow compatriots come under scanner automatically due to the 'free hand' and maintain the sanity of the mainstream.

I posed those questions not at @Soumitra but to every 'patriot' Indian who feels an 'assault' to their nationalism and patriotism just because the views do not fall in line with the general perception they hold.
 
@Joe Shearer

Apt for your situation now



108f222c18c7d6a4a957927dabc8a9fc.jpg



:woot::flame:

You are going to be busy now ..... All the best.:enjoy:

@dadeechi senti kar diya ....:flood:
wont leave him all on his own, even though i know he wont need any support but lets say what is right and say it together shall we? :)

Edit: just that i might not be able to be very active for the rest of the day. Having some fever (hope not that congo one :P)
 
Yet she roams the street, right? Why?

Is India, as a nation state, so weak that it can not accept criticism? What do you think? I am seriously surprised at the amount of attention which people receive for being 'anti-national' and 'seditious'. Why can't one ignore them? Why give them the bandwidth?

If you do not agree with someone, is it necessary to react to them? Won't it be better to ignore them and let the security agencies do the necessary work?

You deny them the bandwidth and the sound bytes they desire, allow them a 'free hand' wherein their supporters and fellow compatriots come under scanner automatically due to the 'free hand' and maintain the sanity of the mainstream.

I posed those questions not at @Soumitra but to every 'patriot' Indian who feels an 'assault' to their nationalism and patriotism just because the views do not fall in line with the general perception they hold.
The NDTVs and Hindus of the media make these Anti Nationals main stream. You have heard about cancerous growth? it starts small and then rapidly spreads. It starts with one or two statements they are ignored by the govt and lauded in the name of free speech by the pliant media. Some govts actively encourage these statements as they fit their narratives and vote bank politics. It is later their followers and supporters grow that creates a problem.If and when the security personnel take action the leftists media denounces it as attack on free speech.

A prime example is Zakir Naik. For years he has been allowed to spew his venom. Now when his followers are caught doing terrorist activities is the scum coming under scrutiny and he is conviniently hiding in saudi Arabia to avoid being brought under book

I am happy that govt was strict in taking action against Kanhaiya Kumar and Umar Khalid. We should nip the problem in the bud before it becomes a big issue

So to answer your question YES it is neccesary to react to them and NO it wont be better to ignore them and let the security personnel do their job because by the time security personnel act it media portrays them as some proponent of free speech

A terrorist becomes a son of a headmaster. the family members of the terrorists are glorified and the security forces are treated like demons. We cant let that happen
 

Back
Top Bottom