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The JF-17 is a truly remarkable plane

First , Yes IAF was clearly order not to cross LoC at any cost and for rest i need a link especially a sanction hit F-16 going agressive (I agree both locked on each other ) .. Which was Grounded during war . And F-7 can really do that as it lacked an intercept radar .
F7 has Griffo, a reasonable intercept radar.

After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’, a euphemism for discontinuing it altogether. That an impending war occupied the Air Staff’s minds was evident in the decision by the DCAS (Ops) for F-16 CAPs to be discontinued, unless IAF activity became unbearably provocative or threatening. ( So, F-16 was discontinued after a week of war or they flew those jet and get spares from Heaven ? )

Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force
it does not say grounded, F7 did the CAPs and F16 were scrambled as needed. Preserving resources for a bigger battle is not grounding just smart thinking. Despite all this IAF still took more beating then PAF.
 
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Air combat
provide proof..to back your claim..without that its good story of hot air
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HUD movie
These incidents were verified by independent observers as the HUD movies were made available to them
you means PAF allowed its HUD movies displae to indepndent obervers right ?
just prove this ....
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parliament and Mumbai incident.
The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting( physical war/bullet) . --Sun Tzu
did you ever relasied after 1999 kargil war ... how pakistan is evaluated in world.. ?
sometime you just have to put finger where its hurt most and make damage of magnitude of scale ... than fighitng all the way.. india did just that
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Jf17
how many countiry you exported it ?

Using a quotation does not prove anything. There are quotation are about everything in the world and how did India subdue to Pakistan? As far as how the world sees Pakistan it was few years AFTER Kargil that all of sanctions on Pakistan were lifted. Also by trying to change the topic proves that you lost the argument. Yes independent review of HUD footage proves a lot i.e tell the truth and not some Bollywood myth that Indians believe in.
 
. Yes ind
Using a quotation does not prove anything. There are quotation are about everything in the world and how did India subdue to Pakistan? As far as how the world sees Pakistan it was few years AFTER Kargil that all of sanctions on Pakistan were lifted. Also by trying to change the topic proves that you lost the argument. Yes independent review of HUD footage proves a lot i.e tell the truth and not some Bollywood myth that Indians believe in.
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Yes independent review of HUD footage proves a lot

im asking this...proof
-
ask your diplomt how diffuclt is life after kargill... :-)
need more ?
if you hit us uranimum will process same hit with plutonium.....:-)
(just example dont go nulcear .. as always...:-))

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1450/MR1450.ch2.pdf
The surprise and alienation felt by members of the Pakistani elite are
confirmed by a reading of Pakistan’s English-language press, which
strongly suggests that at the time of the conflict, editorialists and
other opinion shapers did not know that the incursions around
Kargil were
not
a mujahideen operation. The surprise evinced in
such editorials seems to stem from the writers’ beliefs that Kargil was
not Pakistan’s doing and that Islamabad therefore did not deserve
the opprobrium it received.
In the aftermath of the G-8 communiqué,
3
which Pakistanis read as
laying the blame squarely on Pakistan, several articles spoke out
against what was perceived as an unreasonable and unfair interpre-
tation of events by the international community.
4
One article
poignantly narrates Pakistan’s sense of loss, isolation, and surprise:
We have come a long way indeed from the time when the world lis-
tened to our entreaties on Kashmir with a certain amount of re-
spect. We have come a long way from the time that the OIC
[Organization of Islamic Countries] passed a unanimous resolution
on allowing the Kashmiris the right of self-determination. We have
come a long way indeed from the time that our protector and giver
of all, Amreeka Bahadur, was getting ready to mediate between
India and Pakistan. . . .Whatever happened to us? Why do we stand
at the very edge of the diplomatic precipice today?
5
To illuminate Pakistan’s current standing in the comity of nations,
the author of this article critically examined some of Pakistan’s more
alienating policies, such as its ongoing support for the Taliban.

--
T]he United States has proved to be a fair-weather friend. . . .In-
stead of showing greater understanding of Pakistan’s point of view
and impressing upon India the need to discuss the Kashmir prob-
lem . . ., the US is telling Pakistan to effect a withdrawal of the
Mujahideen (or the infiltrators, as the US prefers to call them) from
Kargil. China does not suffer from the same attitude and its under-
standing of the Pakistani position on all important matters of na-
tional security has always been fair and sympathetic.
6
While such writers persisted optimistically in the days immediately
preceding Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s visit to China,
others sought to dampen any expectation that China would enthusi-
astically support Pakistan.
7
These articles typically reaffirmed the
general contours of Sino-Pakistan relations while vitiating any expec-
tation that China would be totally forthcoming in assistance. A
common strategy employed was to contextualize China’s expected
stance on Kargil vis-à-vis China’s other pressing objectives (e.g., eco-
nomic, social, and military development).
8
Of course, the eventual position taken by China did not live up to any
of Pakistan’s highest expectations. In the days and weeks after the
disappointing visits to China by Foreign Minister Sartaj Aziz and then
Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, there was palpable shock at China’s
position and vexation with the Pakistani Foreign Office’s efforts to
spin these visits as fruitful. Abbas Rashid’s opinion piece typifies this
sentiment:
Even China seems to have forsaken its traditional subtlety to get
across the message as plainly as possible that it did not support
Pakistan’s position. . . .Sartaj Aziz dashed off to Beijing and was re-
portedly told by Li Peng . . . that ‘. . . Pakistan should remain cool-
headed and exercise self-control and solve conflicts through peace-
ful means and avoid worsening the situation.’. . .Certainly, this is

----
 
thunder is no doubt a remarkable plane . and will be a game changer for Paf in future
not a game changer...
It's value for money. It will do the work it's chosen to do. But cannot be called game changer!

ec44740bc0079179900a0a8d56f797ad.jpg

What's is that dark color streak and de-coloration inside cock pit. It looks like rust to me.
or I may be wrong, Is it space age EM wave absorbent paint for super stealth? :sarcastic:

On serious note, It also raises the concern of build quality, upkeep and maintenance training and implementation.
 
F7 has Griffo, a reasonable intercept radar.


it does not say grounded, F7 did the CAPs and F16 were scrambled as needed. Preserving resources for a bigger battle is not grounding just smart thinking. Despite all this IAF still took more beating then PAF.

Actually that are the words of "Kaiser" and i guess he was the one testing that grifo radar on F-7 during that time .. And last line is seriously funny if we exclude the first two
Day of war when IAF was not aware
Of Stinger missile .... Then that beating should be opposite ... Now only you say F-16 is scrambled whenever needed and according to PAF .... IAF never crossed the boundary so deep into Pakistan . so , basically F-16 was never scrambled . So, not to hurt u we can c F-16 was kept ready 24-hour without spare so , as to scramble .... But, not grounded .

Case
Closed

Anyway i posted the whole paragraph about F-16 in Kargil that scramble case was one he refer to one week ... So, PAF was but more intelligent they keep F-16 flying till they have stock and one stock finished they grounded it so , as if in worst nightmare full war is what they have to face atleast they can hold on for sometime .... But , u wanna say a 100% ready jet is there to scramble when needed a particular waste of spare if any left .

F-16 CAPs could not have been flown all day long as spares support was limited under the prevailing US sanctions. Random CAPs were resorted to, with a noticeable drop in border violations only as long as the F-16s were on station. There were a few cases of F-16s and Mirage-2000s locking their adversaries with the on-board radars but caution usually prevailed and no close encounters took place. After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’, a euphemism for discontinuing it altogether. That an impending war occupied the Air Staff’s minds was evident in the decision by the DCAS (Ops) for F-16 CAPs to be discontinued, unless IAF activity became unbearably provocative or threatening.
 
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The advent of BVR has even neutralised that to a great extent, during an exercise based on the BVR scenario, the subject , was picking up the larger more manoeuvrable opponent before the smaller JF-17 was detected, by that time, it had launched weapon and broke off. !!

If thats is consideration, will Mig 21 Bison Beat JF17 ? It can Fire BVR , has minute RCS and India will Field Best AWACS.
 
If thats is consideration, will Mig 21 Bison Beat JF17 ? It can Fire BVR , has minute RCS and India will Field Best AWACS.


It could, but MiG-21s are old and prone to falling out of the sky.
 
Guizhou WS-13

Is a turbofan engine designed and manufactured by Guizhou Aircraft Industry Corporation to power the Pakistan-China jointly developed JF-17 Thunder light-weight multi-role fighter, and in the near future the Shenyang J-31 fifth generation stealth fighter currently under development.

China
began development of the Taishan in 2000 to replace the Klimov RD-93 turbofan, which had been selected in the 1990s to power the JF-17 light-weight fighter. It is designed to have a life span of 2,200 hours and an improved version, providing around 100 kN (22,450 lb) of thrust with afterburner, is under development.

The WS-13 Taishan was certified in 2007 and serial production began in 2009. The 18 March 2010 edition of the HKB report stated that a FC-1 equipped with the WS-13 completed its first successful runway taxi test.[2]

Officials at the Farnborough International Airshow in August 2010 stated that a JF-17 development aircraft is flying with a Chinese engine, which is most likely to be the WS-13.

In November 2012, Aviation Week reported that a JF-17 Thunder is flying in China with the Guizhou WS-13 engine.

Guizhou WS-13 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This means that the WS-13 is ready and in mass production (maybe not in enough numbers yet), and that Pakistan will most probably get the J-31 fifth generation stealth fighter instead of the J-10B or C (Patience has its own rewards), this makes sense - maintenance and spare parts wise - since Both the JF-17 and the J-31 will be using the same engines.
Will Pakistan go for a double engine this time as is the case with the J-31.
In my own opinion, yes, for the same reasons of ease of maintenance and spare parts availability, and mainly to counter the Indian double engined SU-MKIs and Mig-29s, plus deep strike and/or air superiority roles.
 
Guizhou WS-13

Is a turbofan engine designed and manufactured by Guizhou Aircraft Industry Corporation to power the Pakistan-China jointly developed JF-17 Thunder light-weight multi-role fighter, and in the near future the Shenyang J-31 fifth generation stealth fighter currently under development.

China
began development of the Taishan in 2000 to replace the Klimov RD-93 turbofan, which had been selected in the 1990s to power the JF-17 light-weight fighter. It is designed to have a life span of 2,200 hours and an improved version, providing around 100 kN (22,450 lb) of thrust with afterburner, is under development.

The WS-13 Taishan was certified in 2007 and serial production began in 2009. The 18 March 2010 edition of the HKB report stated that a FC-1 equipped with the WS-13 completed its first successful runway taxi test.[2]

Officials at the Farnborough International Airshow in August 2010 stated that a JF-17 development aircraft is flying with a Chinese engine, which is most likely to be the WS-13.

In November 2012, Aviation Week reported that a JF-17 Thunder is flying in China with the Guizhou WS-13 engine.

Guizhou WS-13 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This means that the WS-13 is ready and in mass production (maybe not in enough numbers yet), and that Pakistan will most probably get the J-31 fifth generation stealth fighter instead of the J-10B or C (Patience has its own rewards), this makes sense - maintenance and spare parts wise - since Both the JF-17 and the J-31 will be using the same engines.
Will Pakistan go for a double engine this time as is the case with the J-31.
In my own opinion, yes, for the same reasons of ease of maintenance and spare parts availability, and mainly to counter the Indian double engined SU-MKIs and Mig-29s, plus deep strike and/or air superiority roles.
countering MKI ??? why not against F 35...
 
If thats is consideration, will Mig 21 Bison Beat JF17 ? It can Fire BVR , has minute RCS and India will Field Best AWACS.
Depends on how good the radar and the BVR are on the Bison ,AWACS can't always be present for every battle.
 
countering MKI ??? why not against F 35...
Are you getting Rafale or F-35? For the present and foreseeable future, if the J-31 has to counter others fighters, those are going to be the SU-MKIs, MIG-29s and ultimately Rafale -since Pak-fa's induction is farther in time -.
It will face potentially the F-35 in other parts of the world not in the context of Pakistan vs India.
 
Are you getting Rafale or F-35? For the present and foreseeable future, if the J-31 has to counter others fighters, those are going to be the SU-MKIs, MIG-29s and ultimately Rafale -since Pak-fa's induction is farther in time -.
It will face potentially the F-35 in other parts of the world not in the context of Pakistan vs India.
you guys bought jft due to lack of funds and sanctions. .. it is not designed to take on any specific jet... but you guys tagging it as mki killer mig killer etc... lolz
 
countering MKI ??? why not against F 35...

Because MKI and F-35 are two different league planes. But you are too dumb to realize that.

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thanks for reply...
give me one country who made world class jet by own in less than decade..
give me one 3rd world country made jet less than decade ...
compare spects vs role and responsibility of lca tejas and jf 17 ....
---
let me give small example...
why IAF still did not cleared LCA
1. IAF main foucs is Su30mki and not LCA tejas
2. role of LCA tejas was ..
replace mig21...
yes.. LCA failed to achive that .. but for good reason... be better than Mig
3. IAF have and taken option of D. Rafael for mig 21 ..
let me play devil adovate..
those who know how indian bureacry work..it will go like this
Burecrat : IAF, why you want to replace migs .. its flying...
IAF: MOST migs are old and completed their life so need to go.. even it FLYING but Dangeruly..
B: so take LCA .. home made and cos effective ...
IAF: not ready .. still in development
B: so ...
IAF: we selected D. rafael..
B: haaaa... you want to repalce mig with 4th genrartion D.rafel.. see cost
it like asking to replace maruti 800 with mercedez S class ...
NO...
IAF: then give LCA .. Completed one ...
B: call DRDO, ADA, HAL...
they say as per IAF standards .. its still not COMPLETED.....
IAF: so what should i do.. give D. rafael or LCA ..
B: Ok .. take rafael...
-----------------

its called strategy if IAF cleared LCA tejas now.. they will geth that ..
but if it delays it by hooke and crook .. it will get D.Rafel..and then in few yrs they can induct LCA tooo
its called Double game ..
---
LCA is good but not g8
Rafael is close to g8
so first to be g8 than go for good ..
and lets not forget Rafael TOT will help LCA alot .....alot..
---
so all fanboys so say LCA tejas is failure becuase not inducted ...
eihtet you are dumb or IAF top brass is too smart .. too smart even better than our IAS guys in bureaucracy
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children play game for mins
professional play game for hrs
vetertan for yrs
masters own the game...
legend our game itself...
so most PDF guys come on childrena nd professional category
few in veteran class
rare . in Masters...
but
Legends are in top brass of IAF ...
(do include PAF brass too.. as still with small budget and all caos around . they made it happend JF17)
--
quoting again
santa and banta have old vehicle whihc need to be replace.. maruti 800 (mehran in pak)
case 1.
santa ..
owns mehran..
he owns Ford ENDEAVOUR .. but company not reliable and spare parts alos problem ..
mehran is getting old and old... so need to buy new ASAP
so buys new suzuki sx4 ...asap as its avaible with less wiaitng (development ) period

---
Banta
have Toyota land cruser ...its reliable.. no much issue..even upgrading it with company with new tech toys and fundamental body
he own maruti 800.. do odd job but get breakdown many times..
he wanted to replace with sx4 liek stuff but aspire for future genration toyota prius
instead now he say i want both
he book sx4 like stuff and add custom made modification which delyas delived by yrs
so not avaible...NOW..but surely LATER
and
now BOOKED for new prius .. with it TOT. which he will get SOON..
then
he can use that TOT
for land cruiser modification and SX4 develpoment
---
santa : banta you are failure .. my sx4 is running on growund geeting cool breez
banta::-):welcome:


9d768dee58247e543829b1dd98d6d840.jpg
 
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