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Solar plant

Dubious

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So I was reading about the Moroccan solar plant (attached below for those who have not heard of it):

Moroccan solar plant to bring energy to a million people
By Roger Harrabin
BBC environment analyst
_86823481_de33.jpg

Image captionRows of curved mirrors capture solar energy
A giant plant using energy from the Sun to power a Moroccan city at night will open next month.

The solar thermal plant at Ouarzazate will harness the Sun's warmth to melt salt, which will hold its heat to power a steam turbine in the evening.

The first phase will generate for three hours after dark; the last stage aims to supply power 20 hours a day.

It is part of Morocco's pledge to get 42% of its electricity generation from renewables by 2020.

The UN has praised Morocco for the level of its ambition. The UK, a much richer country, is aiming for 30% by the same date.

The Saudi-built Ouarzazate solar thermal plant will be one of the world's biggest when it is complete. The mirrors will cover the same area as the country's capital, Rabat.

Futuristic complex
Paddy Padmanathan of Saudi-owned ACWA Power, which is running the thermal project, said: "Whether you are an engineer or not, any passer-by is simply stunned by it.

"You have 35 soccer fields of huge parabolic mirrors pointed to the sky which are moveable so they will track the Sun throughout the day."

The developers say phase one of the futuristic complex will bring energy to a million people.

The complex stands on the edge of a gritty, flat, rust-red desert, with the snow-clad Atlas mountains towering to the North.

It is part of a vision from Morocco's King Mohammed VI to turn his country into a renewable energy powerhouse.

_86800883_de12.jpg

Image captionMelted salt inside this tank holds heat into the evening
The country has been 98% dependent on imported fossil fuels, but the king was persuaded of the vast capacity of Atlantic wind, mountain hydro power and scorching Saharan sun.

The king's plans are being enacted by environment minister Hakima el Haite.

She told me: "We are convinced that climate change is an opportunity for our country."

As part of its national commitment to the Paris climate conference, Morocco has pledged to decrease CO2 emissions 32% below business-as-usual by 2030, conditional on aid to reach the renewables target.

Currently Morocco imports electricity from Spain, but engineers hope that will not last long.

Paddy Padmanathan predicted: "If Morocco is able to generate electricity at seven, eight cents per kilowatt - very possible - it will have thousands of megawatts excess.

"It's obvious this country should be able to export into Europe and it will. And it will not need to do anything at all… it needs to do is just sit there because Europe will start to need it."

'True revolution'
Morocco's previously useless slice of the Sahara is proving a blessing for solar power. Solar thermal technology only works in hot sunny countries. The price is falling, and its growing capacity to store energy is arousing interest.

The cost of solar photovoltaic (PV) panels is falling much faster but the International Energy Agency expects them both to play a part in an energy revolution which is likely to see solar as the dominant source of electricity globally by 2050.

Everywhere solar prices are tumbling. Thierry Lepercq, CEO of the Paris-based Solaire Direct, said (controversially) that large-scale ground-mounted solar could already be built without subsidy even in a country like in the UK.

"Solar is a true revolution - that's the way we define it," he said. "The $50 mark (per megawatt hour) is now being crossed and prices are going down.

"The long-term decision-making that is prevalent in the energy world is being disrupted; so you are certainly going to see some coal projects coming to fruition in the next couple of years based on previous decisions but what is certain today is that in all the boards of directors of energy companies, those things are being fundamentally reassessed."

It is, he said, a moment in history.

Roger Harrabin visited Morocco for his series Changing Climate on Radio 4 on Monday at 8pm - then on BBC iPlayer. Full interviews for the series are on the Open University's website www.creativeclimate.org.

Moroccan solar plant to bring energy to a million people - BBC News

So according to this it will cost 7-8 cents/ kWatt while Pakistan is going to charge more (14 cents/ unit), why is that so? Dont talk about crap to justify corruption!

QASP claims it is selling solar power to the grid at $0.14 per unit. Sources within the National Transmission and Dispatch Company (NTDC) say they have signed a deal to buy electricity at $0.24 per unit, which will drop later to perhaps $0.17 per unit after a period of seven years when loans are paid off. In either case, this price is far higher than the $0.07 for hydropower, $0.11 for fuel oil and $0.12 for imported LNG.


World's largest solar park to light up Pakistan's future - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
 
So according to this it will cost 7-8 cents/ kWatt while Pakistan is going to charge more (14 cents/ unit), why is that so? Dont talk about crap to justify corruption!

Dont belive what the Morrocan say...the country has a history of scamming investors by showing falsified low cost and over blown profits...by the time this project is complete..the cost will inflate to $0.30....One my cousin is a chief financial analyst at the parent company ACWA Holdings tasked with this project..

In a windy and sandy area..there are going to be massive cost to clean up the concentrators...SPAIN has thrown a lot of money into solar thermal..secondly storing molten salt..is easier said than done..the technology is not mature yet..
 
So I was reading about the Moroccan solar plant (attached below for those who have not heard of it):

Moroccan solar plant to bring energy to a million people
By Roger Harrabin
BBC environment analyst
_86823481_de33.jpg

Image captionRows of curved mirrors capture solar energy
A giant plant using energy from the Sun to power a Moroccan city at night will open next month.

The solar thermal plant at Ouarzazate will harness the Sun's warmth to melt salt, which will hold its heat to power a steam turbine in the evening.

The first phase will generate for three hours after dark; the last stage aims to supply power 20 hours a day.

It is part of Morocco's pledge to get 42% of its electricity generation from renewables by 2020.

The UN has praised Morocco for the level of its ambition. The UK, a much richer country, is aiming for 30% by the same date.

The Saudi-built Ouarzazate solar thermal plant will be one of the world's biggest when it is complete. The mirrors will cover the same area as the country's capital, Rabat.

Futuristic complex
Paddy Padmanathan of Saudi-owned ACWA Power, which is running the thermal project, said: "Whether you are an engineer or not, any passer-by is simply stunned by it.

"You have 35 soccer fields of huge parabolic mirrors pointed to the sky which are moveable so they will track the Sun throughout the day."

The developers say phase one of the futuristic complex will bring energy to a million people.

The complex stands on the edge of a gritty, flat, rust-red desert, with the snow-clad Atlas mountains towering to the North.

It is part of a vision from Morocco's King Mohammed VI to turn his country into a renewable energy powerhouse.

_86800883_de12.jpg

Image captionMelted salt inside this tank holds heat into the evening
The country has been 98% dependent on imported fossil fuels, but the king was persuaded of the vast capacity of Atlantic wind, mountain hydro power and scorching Saharan sun.

The king's plans are being enacted by environment minister Hakima el Haite.

She told me: "We are convinced that climate change is an opportunity for our country."

As part of its national commitment to the Paris climate conference, Morocco has pledged to decrease CO2 emissions 32% below business-as-usual by 2030, conditional on aid to reach the renewables target.

Currently Morocco imports electricity from Spain, but engineers hope that will not last long.

Paddy Padmanathan predicted: "If Morocco is able to generate electricity at seven, eight cents per kilowatt - very possible - it will have thousands of megawatts excess.

"It's obvious this country should be able to export into Europe and it will. And it will not need to do anything at all… it needs to do is just sit there because Europe will start to need it."

'True revolution'
Morocco's previously useless slice of the Sahara is proving a blessing for solar power. Solar thermal technology only works in hot sunny countries. The price is falling, and its growing capacity to store energy is arousing interest.

The cost of solar photovoltaic (PV) panels is falling much faster but the International Energy Agency expects them both to play a part in an energy revolution which is likely to see solar as the dominant source of electricity globally by 2050.

Everywhere solar prices are tumbling. Thierry Lepercq, CEO of the Paris-based Solaire Direct, said (controversially) that large-scale ground-mounted solar could already be built without subsidy even in a country like in the UK.

"Solar is a true revolution - that's the way we define it," he said. "The $50 mark (per megawatt hour) is now being crossed and prices are going down.

"The long-term decision-making that is prevalent in the energy world is being disrupted; so you are certainly going to see some coal projects coming to fruition in the next couple of years based on previous decisions but what is certain today is that in all the boards of directors of energy companies, those things are being fundamentally reassessed."

It is, he said, a moment in history.

Roger Harrabin visited Morocco for his series Changing Climate on Radio 4 on Monday at 8pm - then on BBC iPlayer. Full interviews for the series are on the Open University's website www.creativeclimate.org.

Moroccan solar plant to bring energy to a million people - BBC News

So according to this it will cost 7-8 cents/ kWatt while Pakistan is going to charge more (14 cents/ unit), why is that so? Dont talk about crap to justify corruption!

QASP claims it is selling solar power to the grid at $0.14 per unit. Sources within the National Transmission and Dispatch Company (NTDC) say they have signed a deal to buy electricity at $0.24 per unit, which will drop later to perhaps $0.17 per unit after a period of seven years when loans are paid off. In either case, this price is far higher than the $0.07 for hydropower, $0.11 for fuel oil and $0.12 for imported LNG.


World's largest solar park to light up Pakistan's future - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

It is a hoax. Solar energy is much expensive than other sources. Big companies would have you believe anything for their business.
 
University of Oregon research on energy production cost from different sources is below. Make judgement of what sources require fuel to be imported versus those who are abundantly available in Pakistan.

LCOE2018.png
 
University of Oregon research on energy production cost from different sources is below. Make judgement of what sources require fuel to be imported versus those who are abundantly available in Pakistan.

View attachment 292109
The chart seems to show biomass as the best option why hasnt any of the egg headed rulers entered that field?

It is a hoax. Solar energy is much expensive than other sources. Big companies would have you believe anything for their business.
Honestly speaking I dont believe it is a hoax...

the amount of people going for it as the govts give subsidies....why would govts do that?

And also how quickly the world is moving towards solar makes one question all these charts and how updated they are!

Esp when LNG isnt exactly falling in our laps ....and also esp when we are still at shortage despite the cheap LNG and the "improvements" bragged about!
 
The chart seems to show biomass as the best option why hasnt any of the egg headed rulers entered that field?


Honestly speaking I dont believe it is a hoax...

the amount of people going for it as the govts give subsidies....why would govts do that?

And also how quickly the world is moving towards solar makes one question all these charts and how updated they are!

Esp when LNG isnt exactly falling in our laps ....and also esp when we are still at shortage despite the cheap LNG and the "improvements" bragged about!

Good to see you again ma'am.

Well, you have examine the chart taking each components into account, that is installation, maintenance, fuel and transmission costs. Then compare it to Pakistan's conditions and resources abundantly available to us. If you already have what is required to run that type of power plant, then that's the one for you. What do we have in Pakistan? Plenty of rivers from highest mountains till sea (that's a lot of potential for dams), we have coal (means free fuel for coal plants), we have windy regions with sustained high winds, plenty of sun and deserts (good places to set up solar plants without compromising agricultural lands) and we have nuclear technology but not the technology to build nuclear power plants. We don't have plenty of oil or natural gas or technology to produce solar panels or wind turbines etc.

Given the installation and energy production cost, best options for Pakistan are (in order of priority)

1. Hydroelectric = cheapest electricity production cost, environmental friendly, perpetual running, no fuel required
2. Coal fired = Fuel readily available in Pakistan, cheap to set up, good sustained production rate
3. Wind = Can be quickly set up, minimal maintenance cost, no fuel required, however needs a backup power source

And look no further than this! Do you know these three sources provide for our energy requirement for a millenia and yet we would export electricity to our neighbours.

As far bio-mass, yes it is cheaper and we have few resources to fuel it like village folks keep cattle stock and have crop plants after harvest. However this needs a very disciplined collection effort and I don't think our society is up for that.

Solar energy needs precious mineral resources to manufacture panels and batteries to store charge. We don't have those minerals. Then there is no way to safely dispose batteries and panels without harming nature. While normal folks think since we have sun so we can keep converting it to electricity, reality is not so simple. You need massive batteries to hold that charge and those very very expensive batteries need to be replaced every few years. We can neither produce panels nor batteries. Even if we did, still the total cost of operation is huge making it amongst one of most expensive way to produce electricity. Why on earth are we building huge solar plant? I don't know.

Why are we importing gas, be it Qatar LNG, Iran pipeline or TAPI, I don't know. Why the nuclear plants? I don't know. Why we have IPPs running on oil? I don't know. May be you can figure it out for me.
 
Given the installation and energy production cost, best options for Pakistan are (in order of priority)

1. Hydroelectric = cheapest electricity production cost, environmental friendly, perpetual running, no fuel required
2. Coal fired = Fuel readily available in Pakistan, cheap to set up, good sustained production rate
3. Wind = Can be quickly set up, minimal maintenance cost, no fuel required, however needs a backup power source
Yet some tinday are getting us a solar park (claimed to be the largest - many countries are picking up such claims) on loan :unsure:

Did we get something wrong?

Do you know these three sources provide for our energy requirement for a millenia and yet we would export electricity to our neighbours.
YET it is us who dont even have "enough" energy for this month let alone a millennium!

As far bio-mass, yes it is cheaper and we have few resources to fuel it like village folks keep cattle stock and have crop plants after harvest. However this needs a very disciplined collection effort and I don't think our society is up for that.
THAT is the thing you see...A leader is one who thinks outside the box and does something for a sustainable future of those HE SERVES not one who pockets and repeats the same jargon everyone else is doing!

Why are we importing gas, be it Qatar LNG, Iran pipeline or TAPI, I don't know.
I think the answer is somewhere along the lines of I scratch your back you scratch mine......Qatar has tons of oil to sell esp when many European countries have pledged to do better for climate change....and are moving research to focus on renewable energy and actually marketing it to enforce the giant companies to chim in like electric cars....

But siny tind cant think that far ....takes someone interested in moving the country forward to think that far! Let alone one who takes education as seriously not hiding "fake degree" people as his right hand and promoting simple people to important positions!

Why on earth are we building huge solar plant? I don't know.

Why are we importing gas, be it Qatar LNG, Iran pipeline or TAPI, I don't know. Why the nuclear plants? I don't know. Why we have IPPs running on oil? I don't know. May be you can figure it out for me.
:raise: World record govt :tsk:

Pakistan's Parliament First in the World to Go 100% Solar

Construction on the first phase, a 100-megawatt, 400,000-panel pilot project, was completed last year in just three months.
 
easiest way of free electricity generation is magnetic or perpetual gravitational wheel method no maintainence, all weather service, plus no fuel need need in this method of electricity production.
 
It is a hoax. Solar energy is much expensive than other sources. Big companies would have you believe anything for their business.

Buddy, if you know Moroccan business culture..it is extremely corrupt..and destination of scam...
A cousin of mine works at ACWA Power in Saudi Arabia the chief group behind this project..he came in a complete team of auditors and financial experts to replace the Morrocans who were handling this project...It is rife with mismanagement and corruption..and a lot of money has been lost..now ACWA is keeping the positive PR face because they already campaigned hard behind the project..

easiest way of free electricity generation is magnetic or perpetual gravitational wheel method no maintainence, all weather service, plus no fuel need need in this method of electricity production.

There is no such thing as perpetual motion to produce energy from..these are just youtube hoaxes..

Given the installation and energy production cost, best options for Pakistan are (in order of priority)

1. Hydroelectric = cheapest electricity production cost, environmental friendly, perpetual running, no fuel required
2. Coal fired = Fuel readily available in Pakistan, cheap to set up, good sustained production rate
3. Wind = Can be quickly set up, minimal maintenance cost, no fuel required, however needs a backup power source

Hydroelectric does not function year round
Coal has serious pollution issues and after years of trying we could not find a feasible solution to underground coal gassification..
Wind is highly unpredictable and intermittent...

SOlar is the most reliable form of alternate energy!
And also provides long term savings of foreign reserve...unlike fuel oil and imported LNG/LPG
 
Yet some tinday are getting us a solar park (claimed to be the largest - many countries are picking up such claims) on loan :unsure:

Did we get something wrong?

We voted them in. Isn't that wrong enough?

But siny tind cant think that far ....takes someone interested in moving the country forward to think that far! Let alone one who takes education as seriously not hiding "fake degree" people as his right hand and promoting simple people to important positions!

They are far more forward looking and excellent planners than you would give them credit for. But they do it for their own family interests. Education means more aware voters. That's death to family politics. Energy to industry means death to family business (their own factories have uninterrupted power supply). They are quite smart and successful if you ask me.
:raise: World record govt :tsk:

Pakistan's Parliament First in the World to Go 100% Solar

Construction on the first phase, a 100-megawatt, 400,000-panel pilot project, was completed last year in just three months.

Import is the key word here. Import deals give better opportunities to make money and keep it outside Pakistan. They never told running cost of solar which is 3 times higher than Hydroelectric.

Hydroelectric does not function year round

In Pakistan they don't dry out entirely either. Rivers start very high and maintain reduced flow in winters. Dams need to be constructed all the way down. They will have to be supplemented by other sources. More so in winters. So would you like imported gas and oil all year round or in winters only? It's a no brained. Pakistan's Hydroelectric potential exceeds 150,000 MW, of which 50,000 MW is viable economically. Our total demand peaks at 20,000 MW in worst case which is summers. You have maximum flow of rivers in summers. Not too hard to figure out.

Coal has serious pollution issues and after years of trying we could not find a feasible solution to underground coal gassification..

40% of world's electricity is produced by coal. 35% of US power is produced by coal. EU which has toughest emission standards in the world produces 25% of its energy from coal. Either the world is too stupid or we have some divine standards of emissions. Can you explain me this graph? How on earth we sit on one of the largest coal deposits and yet produce only 0.1% of energy from it?

images (6).jpg


And no, it isn't about the coal quality. We never tried to allow technology investment that could make it work. Thar is in Sindh where PPP rules. Rings any bells?

SOlar is the most reliable form of alternate energy!
And also provides long term savings of foreign reserve...unlike fuel oil and imported LNG/LPG

How? Did you look at the graph in initial posts? Pray tell us how it saves us foreign exchange when

1. It shuts down after sunset
2. Pakistan can neither manufacture panels nor the exhobriently priced batteries needed to store electricity
3. How will you pay for frequent replacement of massive batteries needed to store charge? No, they can't be manufactured in Pakistan. And, no they just like solar panels require precious earth minerals and metals and we don't have them or don't have the technology to mine them. And there is absolutely no environmental friendly way to dispose these batteries and panels off without destroying the soil. Or you want another plant imported for that too?
4. Photovoltaic panels are 3 times expensive than Hydroelectric and solar thermal is 4 times more expensive. Almost everything for it needs to be imported and those imports never stop to keep it running.

Best way is to establish a mix of Power plants which have least dependence on foreign imports. Giving your energy security in the hands of foreign nations is just plane suicide.
 
more forward looking and excellent planners
kindly do tell me te definition for each of those words...Coz in my books forward looking doesnt only include fly overs and roads...The future of the nation isnt relying on roads...It relies on people power, education and research....NONE of the fields are being "managed" ...Despite boasting about having a large working class...One still needs to know someone or be related to someone to get into fields they actually can make a difference! NOT VERY FORWARD LOOKING AT ALL!

We have SOOO many PhD graduates but not one is employed at minister level! Instead fake degree holders pass bills! :o:

Forward looking would weed out such forward road blocks before boasting of the existence of a brain in the heads! :)

excellent planners dont exactly "forget" to plan drainage when building metros nor do they have the Queen of Netherlands meeting them and not ask her to collaborate on solving annual flooding of Punjab ...I recall not too long ago, some govt workers (not sure which level and what qualification) had done some tour/ study in some country to study drainage....fast forward to now....we still dont have drainage included in the "excellent planners brain cells!" :o: The shocker!

But they do it for their own family interests
That just makes them crooks if we keep calling all crooks forward looking and "excellent planners" than those words become an insult to those who actually do something in those fields!

That's death to family politics. Energy to industry means death to family business (their own factories have uninterrupted power supply). They are quite smart and successful if you ask me.
Add x and y and you get Africa in the making where small families have drilled enough fear/ blind loyalty to enslave their own!

They are quite smart and successful if you ask me.
Cheating and eating another's right is no sign of success nor intelligence....Whats the point of buying yourself hell fire to abide therein for eternity?

They never told running cost of solar which is 3 times higher than Hydroelectric.
Exactly yet we have their blind followers coughing up imaginative numbers :unsure:
 
kindly do tell me te definition for each of those words...Coz in my books forward looking doesnt only include fly overs and roads...The future of the nation isnt relying on roads...It relies on people power, education and research....NONE of the fields are being "managed" ...Despite boasting about having a large working class...One still needs to know someone or be related to someone to get into fields they actually can make a difference! NOT VERY FORWARD LOOKING AT ALL!

We have SOOO many PhD graduates but not one is employed at minister level! Instead fake degree holders pass bills! :o:

Forward looking would weed out such forward road blocks before boasting of the existence of a brain in the heads! :)

excellent planners dont exactly "forget" to plan drainage when building metros nor do they have the Queen of Netherlands meeting them and not ask her to collaborate on solving annual flooding of Punjab ...I recall not too long ago, some govt workers (not sure which level and what qualification) had done some tour/ study in some country to study drainage....fast forward to now....we still dont have drainage included in the "excellent planners brain cells!" :o: The shocker!


That just makes them crooks if we keep calling all crooks forward looking and "excellent planners" than those words become an insult to those who actually do something in those fields!


Add x and y and you get Africa in the making where small families have drilled enough fear/ blind loyalty to enslave their own!


Cheating and eating another's right is no sign of success nor intelligence....Whats the point of buying yourself hell fire to abide therein for eternity?

Exactly yet we have their blind followers coughing up imaginative numbers :unsure:

They are achieving their objectives successfully hence they are smart. We, the people of Pakistan are suffering hence we are not smart. You have any idea of the power of 190 million people?! Till that time however this will continue to happen.....
 
So finally Pakistan understood the meaning of prosperity and now taking its ride toward it. Progressive project and going to help Pakistan's economy. InshAllah!
But Pakistan should guard this project with open eyes and see if all the machinery or plants are valued and feasible to carry out this project. And also understand and study the project well. Also all the equipments going to be used in this project. So we know China is not taking Pakistan as experimenting site.

Pakistan<3
 

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