REPLACEMENT OF Tariq class

[Muhammad Omar]

PN need simple and cost effective solution

type-054 or other next gen frigates are costly

it is better to go for 2nd hand ships
and modernize them
with low cost

New Ships will last More Years then the Second Hand ones.... We can always buy new one on Soft Loans ..... by doing this we can pay easily....

 

[Penguin]

South Korea is heavily invested in American equipment for their naval fleet, out of the question.

Most electronics are Thales....

Sir,
What do you think if some one wants to get all the 8 then they would cost less or the same price? And how much would the upgrades cost?

See edit to post 22

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

If Pakistan Navy is looking for 2nd hand options, then there are a lot of them.
-Ulsan Class
-Thetis Class
- OHP class
-MEKO 200 class
- Karel Doorman-class frigate
-Hydra Class
- Halifax class
-Georges Leygues class
-Floréal class
-Elli-class
-Type 23
- Cassard-class frigate
-Bremen-class frigate
-AnZac Class
- Chinese Type 053H3/054 class

 

[Penguin]

The units do not meet our requirements

> Age is old , rust / sea salt based problems on Ships
> Out of date Systems
> Radars that might not be top of line
> Missiles might be of lower quality

7 or the 8 ships are currently in service with the Marina Militare, and meet NATO standards as they are.

Missiles:

Teseo Otomat Mk2 (with data-link, 180 km range at an average speed of 1,000–1,100 kilometres per hour, first over-the-horizon launch in 1978, attacks in dive mode or in a sea-skimming mode at an altitude of 2 m, 210 kg (460 lb) warhead capable piercing up to 80 millimetres of steel. The warhead is designed to explode inside the ship with the force of the explosion directed to the bottom of the target ship. Guidance: Inertial guidance, active radar homing and - as of mk3 - GPS)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otomat#Submodels

Aspide : medium range air-to-air and surface-to-air missile produced by Selenia (now part of the Alenia consortium). It is provided with semi-active radar homing seeker. It is very similar to the American AIM-7 Sparrow, using the same airframe, but at the moment of its introduction, the Aspide was provided with monopulse guide instead of the conic scan, which made it more resistant to ECM and more precise. This innovation appeared on the Sparrows only with the late AIM-7M version. Closed-loop hydraulics were also substituted for Sparrow's open-loop type, which gave Aspide better downrange maneuverability. Pakistan Army air defence units use the Aspide-2000 variant with the landbased Spada 2000 system.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

See edit to post 22

Then this is a bargain...

There are also reports that the Italians have also re-offered the U-212 A submarines.

If Pakistan Navy is looking for 2nd hand options, then there are a lot of them.
-Ulsan Class
-Thetis Class
- OHP class
-MEKO 200 class
- Karel Doorman-class frigate
-Hydra Class
- Halifax class
-Georges Leygues class
-Floréal class
-Elli-class
-Type 23
- Cassard-class frigate
-Bremen-class frigate
-AnZac Class
- Chinese Type 053H3/054 class

Most of the platforms that have been mentioned are going to be available, how ever it all depends on which fulfills the requirements and is the best of the best would be chosen.

US made ships or those powered by US engines are out because getting them would be a problem under they are cleared by the Congress.

The Chinese ships are available but PN is not going to rely too much on China.

Germany may also be looking forward in providing some submarines to Pakistan Navy.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

We need Top of line
Life span 17 years

 

[Penguin]

Then this is a bargain...

Well, you got a hot transfer of the refurbished McInerney for 65 million dollars. And a new F-22P costed 175 million dollars.

Then this is a bargain...

There are also reports that the Italians have also re-offered the U-212 A submarines.[/quote]
It was developed in part on the basis of Italian need, and the Italians have built their own. I'm not sure though that their cooperation with Germany entails that they can independently market and sell them. No chance the navy is selling theirs. And I also doubt Germany will be exporting subs like 212A or 214 to Pakistan at the present time.

http://www.naval-technology.com/new...ian-navys-last-todaro-class-submarine-4616024
http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/italy-submarine-import-and-export-behavior/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S1000-class_submarines

 

[nomi007]

New Ships will last More Years then the Second Hand ones.... We can always buy new one on Soft Loans ..... by doing this we can pay easily....

already taking loan of 5billion $ from china for subs

 

[Muhammad Omar]

already taking loan of 5billion $ from china for subs

but we will pay for it... and 8 subs gonna take some years

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Here is why we need top of line not 20 year old Junk and not to disrespect anyone's views
Military purchase is about having a tool that you can actually use to defend yourself in the worse of times

The 20 year old ships have designs that have been exposed by Military missile developers , what that means is a single hit can result in sinking of ship due to discovery of flaws in old designs.

Also , having a stealth ship means you can sneak in close to a unsuspecting old design ship and get first strike

Now a 20 year old ship will also have tremendously slow computers , in fact the computer systems were size of a truck
and they produced output quality of a 1980's Pong game (search for pong on internet)

The Lack of size and Air defense, again same old problems these ships don't have systems to protect against Enemy airplanes


All about

a) Multi Role (Air- Surface - Under surface)
b) Longevity (17-20 years)
c) Current Missiles / Radars with huge range



Italian auction is just a junk sale while introducing latest ships in its own navy

Having 20 outdated ships is not same as having 4 Top of line ships

 

[MKC]

From this, Avante seems best option as it has almost same capacity as 3250 tonnes Incheon class but AIK Incheon class is cheaper than Avante.
For Philippines Avante didn't qualify(maybe cost a reason) but HHI offered Incheon for less than 180m dollar ship however, Kamorta class is front runner in that project but Pakistan can get a good Incheon class with SAM from RSA in less than 300m dollars.

 

[Quwa]

For the short-term, the Pakistan Navy will have to find some used frigates from somewhere. The Type 21s need to go.

In the medium and long-term, the PN would need new frigates that are properly designed for its naval warfare needs. In other words, it'd be inexcusable at this point for our ships not to be designed with VLS.

We could see one of two things happening.

First option would be a further development of the F-22P and C28A-line, a 3000 ton frigate with even lower RCS and with enough VLS to carry 32 MR-SAM such as the NORINCO DK-10.

The second option would be picking up a fresh design, such as the larger CSOC 'High Performance Frigate' (3500-4000 ton). This design carries 32 VLS cells, enabling the PN to potentially use the cells for MR-SAM and possibly even VL-ASROC.

Around 6-8 new fully capable frigates need to be put in the pipeline. I'd prefer just sticking to the newer CSOC design - get a large design with lots of room for upgrades. I'd get CSOC to develop a larger variant of the 'High Performance Frigate' - 4500-5000 tons. Get them equipped with LR-SAM and Babur LACM too.

 

[Tank131]

I just want to mention a few things. Firstly the cost to the Philippines to refurbish these ships without getting any improvement in their capabilities was $128M. The major consideration here should be whether it is cost effective given that to improve their capabilities one would need to put minimum $50million into them for new systems. Not to mention PN doesnt operate Otomat or Aspide (though PA/PAF operate Aspide 2000), adding further logistical costs. That puts these vessels in the same price range exactly as F-22P ($175M) which is a newer, larger, more capable ship. If you really want used ships then I would focus all the attention on getting Australia's Adelaides given PN operates OHP already and with some upgrades could get the Alamghir up to adelaide level capabilities. They will be being retired over the next 2-4 years as Hobarts come online.

Now, some are advocating for Type 054A which would cost something like $285-300M per ship. Others want western vessels (Valor class for example is ~$337M/ship). I argue that developing upon F-22P (using C-28A as a jumping off point) you could develop a very potent (maybe more than Type 054A) frigate for as cheap as Type 054A if not cheaper while keeping much of the work in Pakistan given the fact that PN and KSEW have built F-22P before.

Using C-28A design, move the C-802 boxes into the space previously occupied by the smoke stacks on F-22P, just infront of the hangar, hidden behind doors. That adds to the stealth of the ship. Where they were previously housed, put an 8 cell vls (if not able to do that, then 2 FL-3000N launchers with 24 cells each). Where the current FM-90 launcher sits, get rid of the launcher and the deck it sits on and place 24-32 cell VLS, which will definitely fit in that location. As the VLS missiles, rather than going for Chinese systems like DK-10 or HHQ-16, I would go with CAMM or Umkhonto-R which can be quad packed (that is unless DK-10 can be quad packed). This would give the vessel 96 - 160 medium range SAMs (if you can get only 24 cells in front and cant place a VLS in the current location of the C-802 would give you still 96 Quad Packed SAM in 24 cells. If you get 40 VLS cells (32 in front and 8 more in the current C-802 location) it would give you 160 SAMs. These are all 60km range fire and forget. IF the 8cell VLS isnt possible in the C-802 location (which i think given the space there it would fit, mostly above deck) the FL3000N system would still give you 48 short range (9km (6km for supersonic targets)). SAMs, coupled with 96-128 medium range SAMs from the forward VLS system (24-32 cells)

Keeping the Type 364 and the Thales Smart S Mk2 radars these frigates would probably range in price from $225-280M which is a bargain considering that they have as much firepower against surface ships and far more firepower against aerial threats than the Type 054A.

To put this in perspective one such "F-23P" could bring 125,664 km^2 under radar surveillance and cover 11,300 km^2 with its SAMs. While it wouldnt have long range SAMs, with 96-160 medium range sams in additons to the 2 CIWS and any potential Fl-3000N, it would be able to overcome most saturation attacks and still defend a small-medium sized flotilla (though it is not fleet level defense).

 

[_NOBODY_]

@Penguin Sir what are the main differences between F-22P and Type54A ?

 

[Wolf]

Buy some Chinese Type 054

OR

Just go for IVER HUITFELDT-CLASS Frigate From Denmark..... $325 Million/ship

Armament:

• 32 Mk 41 VLS cells for a total of 32 SM-2 IIIA surface-to-air missiles (100+ km range)
• Mk 56 VLS cells for 24 RIM-162 ESSM ( 50 km range)
• 2 quad launchers for 8 Harpoon anti-ship missiles
• 1 × Oerlikon Millennium 35 mm CIWS. This a highly advanced revolver gun with a 1000 rpm rate of fire. It uses special air-burst ammunition to destroy incoming threats.
• 2 × OTO Melara 76 mm guns ( Will be replaced by 127 mm and 35 mm guns)
• 2 × Dual MU90 ASW torpedo launchers

I know Budget is the Issue for Navy......

what is the requirement or number of frigates required by Pakistan Navy. Say if it is 10 frigates that are required then arranging 3 billion dollars over a period of 3 years for say 10 fremm frigates should not be an issue. However, another factor which must be kept into account is that if Chinese offer the same capabilities like that are being offered by Danish in their FREMM frigates then we should go for Chinese frigate procurement.