REPLACEMENT OF Tariq class

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Major word of caution. Not doing something because you are afraid of losing it is a sign of mental weakness and lack of fortitude. Pakistanis over the last 20 yrs have developed a soft spine. You risk losing weaponry in war, thats why you have it. It would be a moral hit to lose anything from a plane, sub, or frigate, but also each soldier. But that cant be the reason not to get a piece of equipment.

This can not be denied, but one has to define priorities. PN is the weakest of all the forces equipment wise, this is because of the budget constraints.

PN at present operate equipment from three suppliers USA, UK and China if we only consider surface ships. It is easier for them to move around these suppliers, unfortunately acquiring latest platforms from the USA is out of question. UK can be considered but they would cost to much. China is the most realistic option.

The Requirement
Short Term
Replacement of Tariq Class.
Enhancement of Maritime petrol towards Gawader.

Medium Term
Enhancement of Maritime boundaries force considering the EEZ.

Long Term
Protection of CPEC.
Protection from Piracy.
Greater over all command and control.

As you are saying one must not completely disregard Destroyers because it might cost too much if that is lost in case of war, however it can be put on hold till you have enough support systems that can tend to minimize losses.

If we consider a realistic approach PN should try to procure decent surface corvettes and frigates that are immediately available to address the short term requirement.

Orders can be placed for Medium Term and long term goals in the next couple of years with an improving budget.
What can these orders comprise of? These orders should increase the number of newer stealth Frigates and Destroyers that would ultimately replace the existing or any secondhand procurement made in the short term.

@Arsalan i agree not puttimg all eggs in one basket...unless its your own basket. Rather than type 054a, PN AND KSEW should work with the chinese to reconfigure the c28A. Remeber, under the reskin, it is the F-22p which itself is based on type 053h3. This allow KSEW to wprk umder a design it os relatively familiar with with a few tweaks. The re-engineering i have outlined above includes moving the c802 missiles and the fm90 launcher and deck. Replace them all with 2 vls systems (24-32 cell in front and 8 cell where the c802 missiles were) if the 8 cell launchwr wont fit (which looking at the space i believe it would), put 2 24 cell fl-3000n there. Keep the type 364 and smart s mk ii and you have a solid air defense for, lets call it flotilla defense (not longe range enough missiles for fleet defense). But that gives around 96-160 missiles if you go for quad packable missiles like CAMM or Umkonto-r in an all vls solution or 96-128 medium range SAM and 48 short range SAM if you go qith the fl300n solution, and it will cost less than type 054a and puts most of the eggs in Pakistan's basket.

The most important factor is OWN CAPABILITY. Pakistan has a decent facility in Karachi but that is no way up to par to fulfill the needs of PN in a very short time. This would only take place if PN develops an other facility at Gawadar, this would take some time to materialize.

Some time back I had a conversation with @Arsalan regarding the F-22P upgraded with the help of Turkey. Do not know what has evolved on this, at that time the Turks has signed some understanding with the Chinese.

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin if PN goes for Type -23 from UK , refurbished and some upgraded how much it will cost ? and how this decision will stand against buying new F-22P's with a VLC 4x8 Cell like you show in about Type 54A pic . ? which will be best option ? cost vise and technology vice .

Regarding availability:

The Royal Navy’s current Type 23 frigates will be replaced by the Global Combat Ship. As of 2012 it is planned that HMS Argyll will be the first Type 23 to retire from the Royal Navy in 2023 while HMS St Albans will be the last, in 2036
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_23_frigate
[Global combat ship] manufacturing planned to begin in 2016 and the first Type 26 to be delivered in 2023.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Combat_Ship

Regarding upgrading: what's needed?

Sonar 2087 was fitted to eight Type 23 frigates in mid-life refits between 2004 and 2012; the five oldest Type 23 frigates, HMS Montrose, Monmouth, Iron Duke, Lancaster and Argyll are not scheduled to receive Sonar 2087 (so only these five might need a sonar refit only).

The Type 23's medium range radar will be replaced by BAE Systems Insyte Type 997 Artisan 3D radar. HMS Iron Duke was the first Type 23 frigate to receive the Type 997 Artisan 3D radar during her refit in 2012–13. It will be fitted to all T23's.

The class are currently going through mid-life refits:

• refurbishment of the mess decks and drive train
• fitting a transom flap which can add up to 1 knot to the top speed and reduce fuel consumption by 13%
• application of Intersleek anti-fouling paint (which added 2 knots to the top speed of Ark Royal )
• Sea Wolf Mid Life Update (SWMLU): improves the sensors and guidance of the missiles
• point defences improved with new remotely operated 30mm guns
• Mod 1 of the Mk8 main gun with an all-electric loading system and a smaller radar cross-section
• communications and command systems upgrade.

A further refit is expected, with HMS Argyll being the first to receive this Life Extension (LIFEX) Upkeep. Amongst the upgrades will be the replacement of the Sea Wolf missiles with the new Sea Ceptor anti-air defence missiles.

The CAMM(M) variant of the Common Anti-Air Modular Missile is intended to replace the current Sea Wolf missile currently equipped on the Type 23 frigates starting from 2016. Up to four CAMM(M) fitting into the space occupied by one Sea Wolf missile and the TRype 23 currently carries 32 Sea Wolf. CAMM(M) has a longer range of 1–25+ km compared to the 1–10 km offered by the Sea Wolf missile. An option exists to give the missile a surface-attack capability. The Royal Navy will not take that option, due to budget reasons, but this might be an option a foreign buyer might wish to exercise.

In due time, an extended range variant of CAMM will become available. The CAMM-ER (extended range variant) shares the same characteristics of the original CAMM with the exception of an additional booster which significantly increases the missiles engagement range, out to 45 km. This might be an option for a foreign buyer to consider.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAMM_(missile_family)

In short, by the time any the Type 23 could become available to PN, I believe the need very little upgrading. Depending on which ships acquired, a sonar refit. Possibly the optional surface attack capability for Sea Ceptor. Maybe swapping out some CAMM for CAMM-ER.

The earliest availability would be 2024 (including some time for refit). If you start building a modified F22P today, you get new ships sooner. F22P is significantly smaller than the 5000 ton fld Type 23, so it's a different class of ship. Superior in ASW as is. It might serve to develop a hi-low mixh of ships e.g. 6 F22P (2 new modified ships, 4 midlife upgrades to same standard, all with CAAM/SeaCeptor) plus 6 Type 23 (Sea Ceptor, in two versions).

Lots of "if's" in this scenario.

Type 23 with Sea Wolf

Type 23 with CAMM/Sea Ceptor

@Penguin, while Sa'ar 5 was designed for barak 1 which is relatively small it currently operates barak 8 which is slighly larger/longer than umkhonto and CAMM. If it can get 16 cells of that sized missile i see no reason china couldn't do the same or better with a much larger ship.

Pls. look at their current SAM and VLS combinations. They currently do not have such a compact missile or compact VLS in use. Do they offer a Barak 1 sized VL missile? If so, what launcher is used for it? If they don't, why do you think that is?

 

[Tank131]

Regarding availability:
Pls. look at their current SAM and VLS combinations. They currently do not have such a compact missile or compact VLS in use. Do they offer a Barak 1 sized VL missile? If so, what launcher is used for it? If they don't, why do you think that is?

Currently Sa'ar 5 and Sa'ar 4.5 ships are undergoing refit for Barak 8 with INS Lahav (Sa'ar 5 corvette) already completed and having undergone live fire trials in November 2015. They will operate with 16 Barak 8 in place of the 32 Barak 1s. As to what laumcher they use... Im looking but haven't found the name yet. http://www.janes.com/article/57950/israeli-navy-to-begin-installing-barak-8-on-sa-ar-4-5-corvettes

As to what the chinese can offer i agree they dont have that compact a launcher/missile combo which is why my suggestion was them to help in the modification of design. For the weapon/launcher i would source out if possible to Sputh Africa or Europe (sylver A50 and CAMM for example). I doubt the Europeans would allow the chinese to do the install so it may be a political nonstarter but i think SA and umkhonto r could be a real possibility, especially if we start seeing denel weapons on JF-17

 

[Penguin]

Currently Sa'ar 5 and Sa'ar 4.5 ships are undergoing refit for Barak 8 with INS Lahav (Sa'ar 5 corvette) already completed and having undergone live fire trials in November 2015. They will operate with 16 Barak 8 in place of the 32 Barak 1s. As to what laumcher they use... Im looking but haven't found the name yet. http://www.janes.com/article/57950/israeli-navy-to-begin-installing-barak-8-on-sa-ar-4-5-corvettes

I'm aware of this.

Barak-8 is 4.5 meters long versus 2.1m for Barak-1. It weighs 275kg versus 98kg
Diameter is 0.22m for the missile (0.54m for the booster) versus 0.17 for Barak-1 missile
Wingspan is 0.94m versus 0.69

So, duh, no surprise that there arew 16 versus 32. Although they would need 2 decks deep instead of just 1 deck.
I'm not interested in the Barak launchers (Barak 1 has it's own, as does Barak-8 but this can also be used in Mk41)

What does this say of the Chinese (which the question was, as Pakistan is highly unlikely to obtain any missiles or launchers from Israel)?

As to what the chinese can offer i agree they dont have that compact a launcher/missile combo which is why my suggestion was them to help in the modification of design. For the weapon/launcher i would source out if possible to Sputh Africa or Europe (sylver A50 and CAMM for example). I doubt the Europeans would allow the chinese to do the install so it may be a political nonstarter but i think SA and umkhonto r could be a real possibility, especially if we start seeing denel weapons on JF-17

Sea Ceptor / CAMM is 3.2m long, diameter 0.166m, weighs 99kg. It can be quad packed in the smallest Sylver launcher A34 (3.5m) or A43 (4.3m). CAMM-ER is 4.0m and would need at least the A43 (4.3m) maybe even A50 (5m), depending on canister length. Shortest Mk41 is 5.2m IIRC.

Umkhonto is 130kg, 3.3m by 18cm and from the looks of it would have a launcher/canister similar to Sea Wolf (or ML Mica, which can use the Sea Wolf canister in naval applications or Sylver launchers).

Meko A-200SAN with Umkhonto

Type 23 with Sea Wolf

Type 23 wih Sea Ceptor

 

[Arsalan]

Some time back I had a conversation with @Arsalan regarding the F-22P upgraded with the help of Turkey. Do not know what has evolved on this, at that time the Turks has signed some understanding with the Chinese.

Well i remember the Turk connection with OHP but not the F22p. Yes there were some people spreading the rumor that Turkey is going to arm F22p with there technology for Pakistan but my argument, even back then was "it do not makes any sense".
I do not see any such thing happening anytime soon. For now, we will be relying on Chinese boats. There was a chance that Pak and Turks will come together in the TF2000 frigate project but that wont be happening anymore for us so that is that!!

 

[The Diplomat]

Talking about our navy; will we be launching or home made nuclear submarine in 2017?
On Wikipedia it says:
Indigenous Nuclear Submarine

Pakistan 1 2017-2020 (Projected) Nuclear marine propulsion (NMP) According to the Navy officials, the project is extremely ambitious, and the first submarine will be locally built in Pakistan. The project is estimated to complete in 5 to 8 years, according to Navy.

 

[monitor]

How about this baby.

will be great if you can add this beast after 2020 along with 6-8 second hand upgraded frigate from turkey Greek and Type 54A to supplement existing F-22P . Ideal fleet after 2020 2~3 type 55 6 Type 54A 4 upgraded F-22P 6-8 secondhand upgraded frigate .

 

[leftfordead]

Regarding availability:

The Royal Navy’s current Type 23 frigates will be replaced by the Global Combat Ship. As of 2012 it is planned that HMS Argyll will be the first Type 23 to retire from the Royal Navy in 2023 while HMS St Albans will be the last, in 2036
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_23_frigate
[Global combat ship] manufacturing planned to begin in 2016 and the first Type 26 to be delivered in 2023.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Combat_Ship

Regarding upgrading: what's needed?

Sonar 2087 was fitted to eight Type 23 frigates in mid-life refits between 2004 and 2012; the five oldest Type 23 frigates, HMS Montrose, Monmouth, Iron Duke, Lancaster and Argyll are not scheduled to receive Sonar 2087 (so only these five might need a sonar refit only).

The Type 23's medium range radar will be replaced by BAE Systems Insyte Type 997 Artisan 3D radar. HMS Iron Duke was the first Type 23 frigate to receive the Type 997 Artisan 3D radar during her refit in 2012–13. It will be fitted to all T23's.

The class are currently going through mid-life refits:

• refurbishment of the mess decks and drive train
• fitting a transom flap which can add up to 1 knot to the top speed and reduce fuel consumption by 13%
• application of Intersleek anti-fouling paint (which added 2 knots to the top speed of Ark Royal )
• Sea Wolf Mid Life Update (SWMLU): improves the sensors and guidance of the missiles
• point defences improved with new remotely operated 30mm guns
• Mod 1 of the Mk8 main gun with an all-electric loading system and a smaller radar cross-section
• communications and command systems upgrade.

A further refit is expected, with HMS Argyll being the first to receive this Life Extension (LIFEX) Upkeep. Amongst the upgrades will be the replacement of the Sea Wolf missiles with the new Sea Ceptor anti-air defence missiles.

The CAMM(M) variant of the Common Anti-Air Modular Missile is intended to replace the current Sea Wolf missile currently equipped on the Type 23 frigates starting from 2016. Up to four CAMM(M) fitting into the space occupied by one Sea Wolf missile and the TRype 23 currently carries 32 Sea Wolf. CAMM(M) has a longer range of 1–25+ km compared to the 1–10 km offered by the Sea Wolf missile. An option exists to give the missile a surface-attack capability. The Royal Navy will not take that option, due to budget reasons, but this might be an option a foreign buyer might wish to exercise.

In due time, an extended range variant of CAMM will become available. The CAMM-ER (extended range variant) shares the same characteristics of the original CAMM with the exception of an additional booster which significantly increases the missiles engagement range, out to 45 km. This might be an option for a foreign buyer to consider.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAMM_(missile_family)

In short, by the time any the Type 23 could become available to PN, I believe the need very little upgrading. Depending on which ships acquired, a sonar refit. Possibly the optional surface attack capability for Sea Ceptor. Maybe swapping out some CAMM for CAMM-ER.

The earliest availability would be 2024 (including some time for refit). If you start building a modified F22P today, you get new ships sooner. F22P is significantly smaller than the 5000 ton fld Type 23, so it's a different class of ship. Superior in ASW as is. It might serve to develop a hi-low mixh of ships e.g. 6 F22P (2 new modified ships, 4 midlife upgrades to same standard, all with CAAM/SeaCeptor) plus 6 Type 23 (Sea Ceptor, in two versions).

Lots of "if's" in this scenario.

Type 23 with Sea Wolf

Type 23 with CAMM/Sea Ceptor

Pls. look at their current SAM and VLS combinations. They currently do not have such a compact missile or compact VLS in use. Do they offer a Barak 1 sized VL missile? If so, what launcher is used for it? If they don't, why do you think that is?

so what I understand from your post as a layman that Type-23 when be fitting with certain electronics become a Credible ship , with very good Battle performance .. but the problem might be that they wont be retiring from the Royal navy anytime soon .. and PN needs to replace their type-21 ASAP cause they already surpass their life time ..

the idea of Upgraded F-22P's with longer life in them is Good , but you really think that Karachi ship Yard is capable of Creating a bigger ship within a year ??? specially after we sign the contract for 8Subs which will soon start building in Karachi ship yard..

 

[leftfordead]

Problem with the type 23 is they will ve i service for the foreseeable future. Certainly too long for PN to wait for. The first Type 26 GCS is to be laid down this year with service expected to start in mid 2020s (another 10 yrs) if there are no delays.

the retirement date is after 2020 .. that is pretty far .. by that PN can finance its own upgraded F-22P's and make around 4 units at least , and later 2020 type 23 will not be much relevant ,if I am not wrong ..

will be great if you can add this beast after 2020 along with 6-8 second hand upgraded frigate from turkey Greek and Type 54A to supplement existing F-22P . Ideal fleet after 2020 2~3 type 55 6 Type 54A 4 upgraded F-22P 6-8 secondhand upgraded frigate .

PN can't operate such diverse type Fleet .. the Budget does not allow us , in fact there is no reason to add kind of similar ships , F-22P's ( modified ) with Type 54A can serve Pakistan Navy till 2030 ..

 

[Penguin]

so what I understand from your post as a layman that Type-23 when be fitting with certain electronics become a Credible ship , with very good Battle performance .. but the problem might be that they wont be retiring from the Royal navy anytime soon .. and PN needs to replace their type-21 ASAP cause they already surpass their life time ..

the idea of Upgraded F-22P's with longer life in them is Good , but you really think that Karachi ship Yard is capable of Creating a bigger ship within a year ??? specially after we sign the contract for 8Subs which will soon start building in Karachi ship yard..

The Type 23 has been, IS and will remain a credible ship, with good battle performance. I don't know if 7 years qualifies as 'not anytime soon', when you consider how much time it would take to produce an F22P in Pakistan if you started with an OK today.

See production table here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22P_Zulfiquar-class_frigate#Ships

Made in China
PNS Zulfiquar: laid down 12-Oct-2006, launched 5-Apr-2008 (540 days later), commissioned 19-Sep-2009 (532 days later, a total of 1072 days - almost 3 years - since launch)
PNS Shamsheer: laid down 13-Jul-2007, launched 31-Oct-2008 (475 days later), commissioned 19-Dec-2009 (414 days later, a total of 889 days - almost 2.5 years - since launch)
PNS Saif: laid down 4-Nov-2008, launched 28-May-2009 (205 days later), commissioned 15-Sep-2010 (475 days later, a total of 680 days - almost 2 years - since launch)

Made in Pakistan
PNS Aslat: laid down 10-Dec-2009, launched 16-Jun-2011 (553 days later), commissioned 17-Apr-2013 (365 days later, a total of 918 days - about 2.5 years years - since launch)

You see the time from laying down to launch deceasing at the Chinese yard. The same period for the ship built in Pakistan is closest to that of the first Chinese built ship. Count on at least 14-15 months with another Pakistan built ship. Another 15-16 months for fitting out. So, total 29-31 months i.e. around 2.5 years. By which time it is mid-2018 at the earliest and the time to a possibly available first Type-23 is just 5.5 years. So, if they start today, PN could add 2 new F22P and then start refitting them (so they are all modernized to a common standard). By the time, the first Type-23 could come online, that might refitting might be underway. At which point it is time to pay off the Alamgir/McInerney.

It's an optimistic scenario that assumes a lot of things go right straight away.

If I'm not mistaken, Karachi shipyard has 2 docks and 1 large and 2 small slipways. PNS Saif was constructed on that large slipway. There is also a floating dock, (which has been used for submarine work).

 

[Arsalan]

Talking about our navy; will we be launching or home made nuclear submarine in 2017?
On Wikipedia it says:
Indigenous Nuclear Submarine

Pakistan 1 2017-2020 (Projected) Nuclear marine propulsion (NMP) According to the Navy officials, the project is extremely ambitious, and the first submarine will be locally built in Pakistan. The project is estimated to complete in 5 to 8 years, according to Navy.

There was some work being done on nuclear propulsion for submarines but that was about 10 12 years ago. the the project was shelved for a number of reasons. For now, as far as i am aware, it have now been revived. We may see work start on this in coming years but there is nothing going on for now. Also for the next decade or so the Pakistan Navy and KSEW are likely to be occupied first with AIP submarines (there are plans to buy 8 subs and 4 or 6 of them are to be made in Pakistan) and then also some frigates. Although expansion work will increase the construction berths, still the planned procurement of subs and frigates in a huge task and will take some years. No indigenous nuclear sub project till then.

If I'm not mistaken, Karachi shipyard has 2 docks and 1 large and 2 small slipways. PNS Saif was constructed on that large slipway. There is also a floating dock, (which has been used for submarine work).

Correct. Two dry docks, one floating dock and three ship building berths. Expansions are planned and mainly involved including the adjacent Pakistan navy Dock yard in KSEW as Navy moves the operation to Ormara.