Rafale May Not be the Best Choice for the IAF

[Ultima Thule]

The ideal JFblk3 would be carrying European AESA (vixen-500e /Raven ES-05/IRST) ... expensive solution but definite punch.

Not going to happen,Chinese KLJ-7A AESA is confirmed for block-3 @NA71

 

[Fledgingwings]

I wonder when these rafales roll into IAF?? They are itching for it....

 

[nahtanbob]

Rafales integrated with Meteor and SCALP missiles are extremely potent platform. I never understand the dithering by the Indian government. It is not like they have other choices

 

[The Accountant]

Who on earth writes such crap?

Someone funded by Russia

The radar is more sophisticated than the one on the F-35 and has detection and engagement ranges comparable to the F-22.

You must be kidding. It shows that you are just making baseless claims ... Do you know even knows that radar of F35 APG81 is an improved version of APG77 (the radar hosted by F22) and has much advanced features than F22 incorporated after learning from performance of F22 ... You can say that F35 radar is designed to overcome shortcomings of F22

It has enough thrust, and is also an 11G fighter design. Rafale can supercruise with its current engine.

Correct

Too much brochure specs.

Yes and broucher gives the highest possible capabilities of aircraft in ideal condition so yes this is the limitation of the platform. Fly slow and lower than MKI ... Rafael is an attack optimized multi-role aircraft whereas MKI is an air superiority optimized multi-role platform ...

So the IAF that operates MKI doesn't know that the Rafale is better or worse than the MKI?

Article is financed by RUssia so what else do you expect?

The Meteor is fully integrated onto the Rafale and is better than all the missiles named above.

Not fully but with one way communication only. Meteor full capability of two-way data link is not available with Rafael ... So it has a range advantage over AIM 120D but not having 2 way data link means it will not be able to act as a true fire and forget missile with Rafael (in comparision to AIM120D and Meteor with Typhoon or Grippen)


If the MKI is equipped with the K-100, then why is there a need for R-37M? Both missiles were developed for the same program, like the YF-22 and YF-23. The Russians chose R-37, India chose K-100.

The Rafale will be getting the more advanced Brahmos-M. If LCA Mk1A can be equipped with Brahmos-M, so can Rafale. Naturally, whatever weapons are being developed for MKI will become a natural fit for Rafale also, including hypersonic capabilities.

Don't quote future capabilities . Future capabilities of Rafael can be integrated in any future aircraft for example may be in future meteor gets integrated into F16s or MKI ...

Obviously not. Apples to apples, the MKI is much more expensive.

RUssian's knows the art of milking the cow regularly through life cycle cost

The French are willing to transfer 100% of the airframe and engine production to India. In fact they want to make India an export hub for Rafales and Falcons.

not yet finalized so ...

What crap. Rafale is being integrated with the Indian AAW and HSLD, along with the Israeli SPICE as of today. Naturally Astra, Nirbhay and Brahmos will join the mix over the next few years.

again doesn't count.

We will have the right to integrate whatever weapons we want.

The Rafale will also be equipped with the Israeli Litening and TARGO HMDS.

Only if integration was such a simple process ... Furthermore, you are saying that russians and french will share source code os rafael and brahmos with each other ... lolz best of luck doing that ...

There are none. We actually had a proper tender to verify it. And the same parameters will be used in MMRCA 2.0 as well.

THis is the reality Rafael is not the best fighter in it class but choices depends on priorities and Indian priority was to get a strategic fighter than can deliver nuclear payload and only Rafael was willing to provide that capability otherwise Typhoon is much better air superiority an overall fighter but Indians needed strike aircraft as they already had MKI for air superiority role ....

If only the author could convince the American govt about participating. But considering the amount of work the author has put into this piece, I find his/her ability to convince the Americans a tad more difficult.



They should ask the Koreans then. The Koreans found that they could buy 60 Typhoons (52+8) for the price of 40 F-35As. And we found through MMRCA the Rafale to be 25% cheaper than the Typhoon.

Agreed

 

[randomradio]

You must be kidding. It shows that you are just making baseless claims ... Do you know even knows that radar of F35 APG81 is an improved version of APG77 (the radar hosted by F22) and has much advanced features than F22 incorporated after learning from performance of F22 ... You can say that F35 radar is designed to overcome shortcomings of F22

It's simple. The French have managed to put in over 1100 T/R modules on a very, very small aperture while the F-35 has 1400-1600 on a very large aperture, twice as big. The quality of radar depends on how many T/R modules you manage to fit in. So the Americans have not done such a good job there compared to the French. The F-35 should have 2200 T/R modules to be the equivalent of the Rafale.

The reason for this is the Rafale's T/R module design is at least 10 years ahead. The F-35's radar design is much older, since it is simply a modification of the F-22's radar, which was designed back in the 80s.

The Americans have since developed a new radar as an interim radar for the F-22 which is the equivalent of the Rafale's radar, but they are now working on an even more advanced one for the F-22 MLU.

As it stands today, the F-22 and Rafale have pretty much the same detection range, just 10 or 20 Km short on Rafale. So, even though the F-22's radar is 2.5 times bigger than Rafale's, both radars have more or less the same detection range because the Rafale's T/R modules are much more closely packed.

Quality of software comes next, and this can go either way. But the French claim their software is better. I don't know if it's true, but the Rafale's radar is obviously developed 20 years later than the F-22's radar, so the benefit of the doubt should obviously go to the French.

Yes and broucher gives the highest possible capabilities of aircraft in ideal condition so yes this is the limitation of the platform. Fly slow and lower than MKI ... Rafael is an attack optimized multi-role aircraft whereas MKI is an air superiority optimized multi-role platform ...

Completely wrong. The Rafale is as capable at high altitudes as any other air superiority aircraft, with the exception of the F-22.

Not fully but with one way communication only. Meteor full capability of two-way data link is not available with Rafael ... So it has a range advantage over AIM 120D but not having 2 way data link means it will not be able to act as a true fire and forget missile with Rafael (in comparision to AIM120D and Meteor with Typhoon or Grippen)

Due to the way the Meteor functions, the Rafale has no need for a two way link. The downlink only confirms radar lock, which the Rafale doesn't need since the final leg of the flight after radar lock is just 10 seconds. But a two way link can be added upon customer's request. Due to the above reason, the French didn't bother with one. Meteor functions the same way on the Rafale as it does on the Gripen and Typhoon. Meaning, its ability to kill is not compromised in anyway.

The quality of sensors on Rafale is far superior to Gripen and Typhoon anyway. Rafale has AESA radar while Gripen and Typhoon have old gen MS radars.

Don't quote future capabilities . Future capabilities of Rafael can be integrated in any future aircraft for example may be in future meteor gets integrated into F16s or MKI ...

Don't see the point of not bringing it up. We will have Brahmos-M by the time the 36 Rafales are inducted. All the India specific customisations will become active only after 2022 anyway.

not yet finalized so ...

There is no need to "finalise". Construction of facilities have already begun. The first Indian made Falcon will fly out of India in 2022. The same facility will be extended to Rafale also. Dassault plans to produce the next batch of 36 Rafales in India. And they will be clubbing a lot of other export orders to it. DRAL has discovered that producing Rafale in India is 20% cheaper than in France. So the French will make a 20% higher profit for the same order if they make export orders also in India.

Construction of all the facilities necessary have begun months ago.

That hangar in the distance has already started producing Falcon and Rafale parts.

again doesn't count.

Why doesn't it count? The capability will be added alongside deliveries. Once delivery is complete, capability will become active.

Only if integration was such a simple process ... Furthermore, you are saying that russians and french will share source code os rafael and brahmos with each other ... lolz best of luck doing that ...

All the software needed for Brahmos is entirely Indian, including seeker. No Russian help is required. And the French will be transferring all the source codes needed for integration of weapons, it's part of the contract.

THis is the reality Rafael is not the best fighter in it class but choices depends on priorities and Indian priority was to get a strategic fighter than can deliver nuclear payload and only Rafael was willing to provide that capability otherwise Typhoon is much better air superiority an overall fighter but Indians needed strike aircraft as they already had MKI for air superiority role ....

IAF MMRCA tender decided Rafale is the best fighter in class. That's why it was shortlisted. And no, the main criteria for selection of Rafale was air superiority capability. That's where all the points were centered around. That's also why only Typhoon and Rafale made the shortlist. Typhoon has very limited strike capability even today, so why does that make you think IAF was interested in strike?

Nuclear delivery capability was a separate process. It wasn't part of MMRCA or else the Americans and Swedes wouldn't have participated. It just worked out for us that Rafale does it. Had the Typhoon won, we would still have bought Rafales later on for the nuke mission, separate from the MMRCA process. The Rafale GTG had nothing to do with MMRCA, it was a parallel process initiated by the PMO and later hijacked by Parrikar, which Parrikar used as an excuse to shut down MMRCA.

As for the new MMRCA program, no shortlist, no soup.

Rafales integrated with Meteor and SCALP missiles are extremely potent platform. I never understand the dithering by the Indian government. It is not like they have other choices

Rafale induction is a high priority project.

 

[The Accountant]

It's simple. The French have managed to put in over 1100 T/R modules on a very, very small aperture while the F-35 has 1400-1600 on a very large aperture, twice as big. The quality of radar depends on how many T/R modules you manage to fit in. So the Americans have not done such a good job there compared to the French. The F-35 should have 2200 T/R modules to be the equivalent of the Rafale.

The reason for this is the Rafale's T/R module design is at least 10 years ahead. The F-35's radar design is much older, since it is simply a modification of the F-22's radar, which was designed back in the 80s.

The Americans have since developed a new radar as an interim radar for the F-22 which is the equivalent of the Rafale's radar, but they are now working on an even more advanced one for the F-22 MLU.

As it stands today, the F-22 and Rafale have pretty much the same detection range, just 10 or 20 Km short on Rafale. So, even though the F-22's radar is 2.5 times bigger than Rafale's, both radars have more or less the same detection range because the Rafale's T/R modules are much more closely packed.

Quality of software comes next, and this can go either way. But the French claim their software is better. I don't know if it's true, but the Rafale's radar is obviously developed 20 years later than the F-22's radar, so the benefit of the doubt should obviously go to the French.

Self contradictory statements ... Rafael radar is similar to F22 but it is better than F35 despite the fact F35 radar is advanced version of F35 ...

Completely wrong. The Rafale is as capable at high altitudes as any other air superiority aircraft, with the exception of the F-22.

Reference please.

Due to the way the Meteor functions, the Rafale has no need for a two way link. The downlink only confirms radar lock, which the Rafale doesn't need since the final leg of the flight after radar lock is just 10 seconds.

Incorrect statement reference please along with justification of claim of 10 seconds.
Furthermore, two way link as essential as after lock confirmation the attacking aircraft can change the direction and there is no need of further guidance but if you dont have two way link you are blind and which will significantly degrade the chances of hit whereas all of the other competitor missiles like AIM120D has 2 way link

But a two way link can be added upon customer's request. Due to the above reason, the French didn't bother with one. Meteor functions the same way on the Rafale as it does on the Gripen and Typhoon. Meaning, its ability to kill is not compromised in anyway.

Again incorrect statement. Rafael is not integrated as Rafael radar and mission computer will require major changes and that will be very costly before MLU program. Kindly dont quote on stuff you dont know.

The quality of sensors on Rafale is far superior to Gripen and Typhoon anyway. Rafale has AESA radar while Gripen and Typhoon have old gen MS radars.

If you delayed the purchase of Rafael it doesn't means others are also stuck both Grippen and Typhoon are now being fielded with AESA radar ...
And quality of sensors of Rafael is better than others is a self proclaiming statement which has no substance ...

Don't see the point of not bringing it up. We will have Brahmos-M by the time the 36 Rafales are inducted. All the India specific customisations will become active only after 2022 anyway.

What will happen in future is not the topic ... what you have in hand is the topic ... In hand no such upgrades are available ...

There is no need to "finalise". Construction of facilities have already begun. The first Indian made Falcon will fly out of India in 2022. The same facility will be extended to Rafale also. Dassault plans to produce the next batch of 36 Rafales in India. And they will be clubbing a lot of other export orders to it. DRAL has discovered that producing Rafale in India is 20% cheaper than in France. So the French will make a 20% higher profit for the same order if they make export orders also in India.

Construction of all the facilities necessary have begun months ago.

That hangar in the distance has already started producing Falcon and Rafale parts.

Again will do this and that ... Kindly present hard core documentary fact ... Hard core documentary fact is you tried to move manufacturing of your 36 fighters to India and you were denied ... As of date no production of Rafael in India is agreed ...

Why doesn't it count? The capability will be added alongside deliveries. Once delivery is complete, capability will become active.

Current capabilities counts not future programs ... In future Pakistan is planning to manufacture 5th generation so we should start saying that Pakistan is having 5th generation fighter is ahead of India ?

All the software needed for Brahmos is entirely Indian, including seeker. No Russian help is required. And the French will be transferring all the source codes needed for integration of weapons, it's part of the contract.

I didn't know that ... But are these codes compatible? Both are of entirely different origin ... plus would hard point will be able to support it considering MKI needed modification despite being heavy fighter ,,, integration is not as simple as you are claiming ...

IAF MMRCA tender decided Rafale is the best fighter in class. That's why it was shortlisted. And no, the main criteria for selection of Rafale was air superiority capability. That's where all the points were centered around. That's also why only Typhoon and Rafale made the shortlist. Typhoon has very limited strike capability even today, so why does that make you think IAF was interested in strike?

Apparently you didn't follow the whole process of induction

Nuclear delivery capability was a separate process. It wasn't part of MMRCA or else the Americans and Swedes wouldn't have participated. It just worked out for us that Rafale does it. Had the Typhoon won, we would still have bought Rafales later on for the nuke mission, separate from the MMRCA process. The Rafale GTG had nothing to do with MMRCA, it was a parallel process initiated by the PMO and later hijacked by Parrikar, which Parrikar used as an excuse to shut down MMRCA.

Is air superiority was the requirement then compare it with typhoon and typhoon will be on the top on any day ... You are actually things which you didn't followed or checked ...

You don't even understand the fact not a single aircraft is best over other unless it is change of generation ... Each weapon system has its strength and weaknesses and airforces chose them based on priorities ...

 

[nahtanbob]

Rafale induction is a high priority project.

The amount of dithering makes one wonder about the priority

 

[randomradio]

Self contradictory statements ... Rafael radar is similar to F22 but it is better than F35 despite the fact F35 radar is advanced version of F35 ...

You've gone wrong somewhere to get your point across there.

Reference please.

The Rafale can supercruise at high speeds with payload. Neither the F-15 nor the MKI can do that. What more do you want?

Incorrect statement reference please along with justification of claim of 10 seconds.
Furthermore, two way link as essential as after lock confirmation the attacking aircraft can change the direction and there is no need of further guidance but if you dont have two way link you are blind and which will significantly degrade the chances of hit whereas all of the other competitor missiles like AIM120D has 2 way link

Meteor's kill speed at high altitude is 5000Km/hr and the seeker kicks in during the last 15Km. So the time spent with the seeker on is only 10 seconds.

Anyway you haven't understood what the two way link is for. It's irrelevant because the Rafale's sensors are far superior and can see more than the seeker can.

Again incorrect statement. Rafael is not integrated as Rafael radar and mission computer will require major changes and that will be very costly before MLU program. Kindly dont quote on stuff you dont know.

That's a dumb statement. A one way link is easily upgradeable to a two way link. There is no need to perform an MLU for it. Your argument can come in if there was no link at all, but then such an aircraft wouldn't have BVR capability.

The guidance process for Meteor is the same on Gripen, Typhoon and Rafale.

If you delayed the purchase of Rafael it doesn't means others are also stuck both Grippen and Typhoon are now being fielded with AESA radar ...
And quality of sensors of Rafael is better than others is a self proclaiming statement which has no substance ...

Neither the Typhoon nor Gripen are operating the Meteor with AESA radars. Both are operating with MS scan.

What will happen in future is not the topic ... what you have in hand is the topic ... In hand no such upgrades are available ...

So? We don't have the aircraft either. So it's all moot anyway.

Again will do this and that ... Kindly present hard core documentary fact ... Hard core documentary fact is you tried to move manufacturing of your 36 fighters to India and you were denied ... As of date no production of Rafael in India is agreed ...

Dassault is doing it on their own initiative, nothing to do with the govt.

Current capabilities counts not future programs ... In future Pakistan is planning to manufacture 5th generation so we should start saying that Pakistan is having 5th generation fighter is ahead of India ?

If that's the case, then Rafale has AESA currently, while AESA on MKI is a future program.

I didn't know that ... But are these codes compatible? Both are of entirely different origin ... plus would hard point will be able to support it considering MKI needed modification despite being heavy fighter ,,, integration is not as simple as you are claiming ...

It's all NATO standard.

Apparently you didn't follow the whole process of induction

I know more than what's in open source.

Is air superiority was the requirement then compare it with typhoon and typhoon will be on the top on any day ... You are actually things which you didn't followed or checked ...

Okay.

You don't even understand the fact not a single aircraft is best over other unless it is change of generation ... Each weapon system has its strength and weaknesses and airforces chose them based on priorities ...

Well, the French do call Rafale 5th generation.

Also, the IAF said the Rafale is a 5th generation aircraft in the Supreme Court.
https://www.telegraphindia.com/india/5g-fighters-like-rafale-needed-iaf-tells-sc/cid/1675310
5G fighters like Rafale needed, IAF tells SC

The amount of dithering makes one wonder about the priority

There was no dithering. MMRCA tender had become unworkable so it was cancelled. And the current controversy is all about opposition parties trying to catch their shadow because they have nothing to attack the govt with. Our national auditor and also the Supreme Court quashed all opposition claims.

A new contract for 36 more Rafales will happen soon. This will take the numbers to the minimum amount of Rafale the IAF wants. The rest will come in through a new tender.

 

[The Accountant]

You've gone wrong somewhere to get your point across there.



The Rafale can supercruise at high speeds with payload. Neither the F-15 nor the MKI can do that. What more do you want?



Meteor's kill speed at high altitude is 5000Km/hr and the seeker kicks in during the last 15Km. So the time spent with the seeker on is only 10 seconds.

Anyway you haven't understood what the two way link is for. It's irrelevant because the Rafale's sensors are far superior and can see more than the seeker can.



That's a dumb statement. A one way link is easily upgradeable to a two way link. There is no need to perform an MLU for it. Your argument can come in if there was no link at all, but then such an aircraft wouldn't have BVR capability.

The guidance process for Meteor is the same on Gripen, Typhoon and Rafale.



Neither the Typhoon nor Gripen are operating the Meteor with AESA radars. Both are operating with MS scan.



So? We don't have the aircraft either. So it's all moot anyway.



Dassault is doing it on their own initiative, nothing to do with the govt.



If that's the case, then Rafale has AESA currently, while AESA on MKI is a future program.



It's all NATO standard.



I know more than what's in open source.



Okay.



Well, the French do call Rafale 5th generation.

Also, the IAF said the Rafale is a 5th generation aircraft in the Supreme Court.
https://www.telegraphindia.com/india/5g-fighters-like-rafale-needed-iaf-tells-sc/cid/1675310
5G fighters like Rafale needed, IAF tells SC



There was no dithering. MMRCA tender had become unworkable so it was cancelled. And the current controversy is all about opposition parties trying to catch their shadow because they have nothing to attack the govt with. Our national auditor and also the Supreme Court quashed all opposition claims.

A new contract for 36 more Rafales will happen soon. This will take the numbers to the minimum amount of Rafale the IAF wants. The rest will come in through a new tender.

I was about to reply you back point to point but your last comment proved that you r just a troll who knows shit about aviation technology ... even wikipedia fan boys r better ... so keep on dreaming whatever u want ...

 

[randomradio]

I was about to reply you back point to point but your last comment proved that you r just a troll who knows shit about aviation technology ... even wikipedia fan boys r better ... so keep on dreaming whatever u want ...

What, the follow on order for 36 more?

Then all you have to do is watch and be awed.

 

[The Accountant]

What, the follow on order for 36 more?

Then all you have to do is watch and be awed.

Yes exactly like 27th feb

 

[Ultima Thule]

What, the follow on order for 36 more?

Then all you have to do is watch and be awed.

Lets wait and see you jester, most of indian senior/professional members in Indian defense section, there will be no follow on order then 36 other than for may be for IN @randomradio sick:

 

[randomradio]

Lets wait and see you jester, most of indian senior/professional members in Indian defense section, there will be no follow on order then 36 other than for may be for IN @randomradio sick:

Then we must be very smart people to buy infrastructure for 4 squadrons.

 

[LeGenD]

It's simple. The French have managed to put in over 1100 T/R modules on a very, very small aperture while the F-35 has 1400-1600 on a very large aperture, twice as big. The quality of radar depends on how many T/R modules you manage to fit in. So the Americans have not done such a good job there compared to the French. The F-35 should have 2200 T/R modules to be the equivalent of the Rafale.

The reason for this is the Rafale's T/R module design is at least 10 years ahead. The F-35's radar design is much older, since it is simply a modification of the F-22's radar, which was designed back in the 80s.

The Americans have since developed a new radar as an interim radar for the F-22 which is the equivalent of the Rafale's radar, but they are now working on an even more advanced one for the F-22 MLU.

As it stands today, the F-22 and Rafale have pretty much the same detection range, just 10 or 20 Km short on Rafale. So, even though the F-22's radar is 2.5 times bigger than Rafale's, both radars have more or less the same detection range because the Rafale's T/R modules are much more closely packed.

Quality of software comes next, and this can go either way. But the French claim their software is better. I don't know if it's true, but the Rafale's radar is obviously developed 20 years later than the F-22's radar, so the benefit of the doubt should obviously go to the French.



Completely wrong. The Rafale is as capable at high altitudes as any other air superiority aircraft, with the exception of the F-22.



Due to the way the Meteor functions, the Rafale has no need for a two way link. The downlink only confirms radar lock, which the Rafale doesn't need since the final leg of the flight after radar lock is just 10 seconds. But a two way link can be added upon customer's request. Due to the above reason, the French didn't bother with one. Meteor functions the same way on the Rafale as it does on the Gripen and Typhoon. Meaning, its ability to kill is not compromised in anyway.

The quality of sensors on Rafale is far superior to Gripen and Typhoon anyway. Rafale has AESA radar while Gripen and Typhoon have old gen MS radars.



Don't see the point of not bringing it up. We will have Brahmos-M by the time the 36 Rafales are inducted. All the India specific customisations will become active only after 2022 anyway.



There is no need to "finalise". Construction of facilities have already begun. The first Indian made Falcon will fly out of India in 2022. The same facility will be extended to Rafale also. Dassault plans to produce the next batch of 36 Rafales in India. And they will be clubbing a lot of other export orders to it. DRAL has discovered that producing Rafale in India is 20% cheaper than in France. So the French will make a 20% higher profit for the same order if they make export orders also in India.

Construction of all the facilities necessary have begun months ago.

That hangar in the distance has already started producing Falcon and Rafale parts.



Why doesn't it count? The capability will be added alongside deliveries. Once delivery is complete, capability will become active.



All the software needed for Brahmos is entirely Indian, including seeker. No Russian help is required. And the French will be transferring all the source codes needed for integration of weapons, it's part of the contract.



IAF MMRCA tender decided Rafale is the best fighter in class. That's why it was shortlisted. And no, the main criteria for selection of Rafale was air superiority capability. That's where all the points were centered around. That's also why only Typhoon and Rafale made the shortlist. Typhoon has very limited strike capability even today, so why does that make you think IAF was interested in strike?

Nuclear delivery capability was a separate process. It wasn't part of MMRCA or else the Americans and Swedes wouldn't have participated. It just worked out for us that Rafale does it. Had the Typhoon won, we would still have bought Rafales later on for the nuke mission, separate from the MMRCA process. The Rafale GTG had nothing to do with MMRCA, it was a parallel process initiated by the PMO and later hijacked by Parrikar, which Parrikar used as an excuse to shut down MMRCA.

As for the new MMRCA program, no shortlist, no soup.



Rafale induction is a high priority project.

So much comedy in a single post, brought to you by an Indian troll...

That gibberish you wrote about the radar systems, oh dear. But I realized that you are a complete joker when you tried to compare MF-STAR to AMDR in another discussion.

 

[randomradio]

So much comedy in a single post, brought to you by an Indian troll...

That gibberish you wrote about the radar systems, oh dear. But I realized that you are a complete joker when you tried to compare MF-STAR to AMDR in another discussion.

How about your lack of knowledge is the reason why you think I'm the troll?

Speak to the Israelis. They believe the MFSTAR is far superior to the AEGIS. AMDR is simply the American MFSTAR meant for a bigger ship.

If you actually know what radars do, you wouldn't be making stupid posts.