Pakistan's Noncampaign Against the Taliban

[Patriot]

Hopefully the US will invest in building a better Pakistan; with a vibrant economy, great education, great health services, and an ideology based on moderate enlightenment.

Hopefully the US will rid our country of Islamic extremist way of life; and help butcher all those who sport beards and waste time in mosques.

Hopefully the US forces will help transform Pakistan into a Tourist and R&R paradise; like they did in Thailand, Philippines and Korea. Our females are no less than anybody in carnal charms and beauty. This industry will surpass cotton garments export target of US$ 25 b / year by a wide margin.

US won't do anything like that.It's you who have to build your country not US.US Needs to get the **** out of our country before whole pakistan turns into anti america.

 

[waraich66]

Hopefully the US will invest in building a better Pakistan; with a vibrant economy, great education, great health services, and an ideology based on moderate enlightenment.

Hopefully the US will rid our country of Islamic extremist way of life; and help butcher all those who sport beards and waste time in mosques.

Hopefully the US forces will help transform Pakistan into a Tourist and R&R paradise; like they did in Thailand, Philippines and Korea. Our females are no less than anybody in carnal charms and beauty. This industry will surpass cotton garments export target of US$ 25 b / year by a wide margin.

Your analysis is right upto some extend

I think still 5% of 160Million are still practicing islam completely in Pakistan , i am not hope less with present satuation , darkness is due to absence of light.

What ever targets of US are , there are few Wali Allah still living inside Pakistan enough to destroy their plans .

Negahi Marde momin se badal jateen hain taqderain.

The most important thing is "Amir Bil Marouf and Nahi munkir" is continued in Pakistan so we dont have any danger from US direct aggression but yes their evil agenda will continue uptill majority of Pakistanis start practicing Islam.

1500 tableegi Jamats are doing Amir Bill Marouf and Nahi Munkir from Indian boarder to Afghanistan and vice versa .

Amir bil Marouf Nahi munkir is main protection wall againt all attacking evil forces .

 

[Patriot]

Your analysis is right upto some extend .95% of Pakistanis are inferior Kafirs.We need to learn and kiss superior saudi ***.

 

[graphican]

If you wish to pursue a particular political objective, Shariah, end of support for the US occupation of Afghanistan etc, the Pakistani constitution allows for a peaceful means for you to advance your objectives through the political system.

I am sorry sir, you are not considering what kind of democracy and importantly what kind of leadership we are supposed to listen. People who would want to sell their countrymen for 2000 dollars each, who do not find a need to clarify allegations of corruptions and who swear before public and later deny calling it a "political statement" are the people to rely on? Do you see these people even capable of dreaming freely?

We do not support actions of any organization who is fighting with our soldiers and countrymen but what good alternative is there to convince them and offer a better and indeed better alternative? I am not even in favor of sparing those people who brainwash to do suicide attacks but for God sake stop putting the same limp, powerless and unproductive system of governance as the solution either. If we cannot improve our part of system, we cannot expect the others to follow ours and give up theirs.

 

[graphican]

I am right and rest of the world is wrong, NOU, I am right and rest of the Muslims are wrong, False, you two are wrong and I am right, He is Kafir, No not him, the other one is Kafir, No.. the one who calls him Kafir is actually himself Kahir, Tch.. what did you say? Muslim? who? I am Muslim, No Not you, He is muslim... He is bad muslim but I am the good one... Naa he is enlightened moderate..?


My dear friends, Holy Prophet Muhammad in his last address of Haj said.
I am leaving a thing among that if you follow would not let you astray.. it is Quraan and Sunnah.

Lets read Quraan in the language we understand. Lets Read Sahi Bukhari and Sahi Muslim that are uncontroversial books of Sunnah and learn what is Islam indeed and what are we asked to do and what not!

Please stop believing that any one of us is a better Muslim and others are kafir or munkir. No one is the judge except Book of God and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad PBUH and we are not answerable to any one else except God for our believes and practices. Do we have some disagreement on that?

 

[waraich66]

Your analysis is right upto some extend .95% of Pakistanis are inferior Kafirs.We need to learn and kiss superior saudi ***.

Do you have any constructive idea in your mind other cursing saudi ,wahabi ?

You need rest because with your state of mind no body like to discuss with you.

 

[Conscientious objector]

Continuing support, indirect or direct, of violent Islamist radicals, or those who support those radicals, will result in a ban.

Why were those who declared their support for extra judicial killings and those who advocated the murder of a human rights activist not warned or threatened with a ban in the same manner? Why the double standards?

I do find this exclusivist claim extremely offensive

Which "exclusivist" claim? He tried to define what the term Wahabi means, how/why is this "exclusivist"?

it is no mortal being's place to pass judgment on who is and who is not a Muslim

No actually you are wrong about this, if someone denies the fundamentals of Islam like the qadianis for example I will not hesitate to declare him/them disbelievers.

nor on whose Islam is the true Islam.

Again, those who promote deviant beliefs will be declared heretics.

On this count as well, the forum cannot allow people to promote hate in this guise - exclusivist claims such as these are offensive to those who may not belong or agree with that particular ideology.

Will the same hold true for the rabid secularists who's hatred for the Muslims is constantly been expressed on this forum? Will those who throw accusations of Wahabi at anyone who expresses any Islamic leanings also be warned to desist?

Members must refrain from such claims and posts

Is it only the Muslims that are being addressed here? Or do you include the secularists as well?

and hopefully Graphican and others will heed this warning as well or risk having their posting rights removed.

Hopefully you will apply your rules equally on those who share your beliefs as well as those who are against your ideology.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I am sorry sir, you are not considering what kind of democracy and importantly what kind of leadership we are supposed to listen. People who would want to sell their countrymen for 2000 dollars each, who do not find a need to clarify allegations of corruptions and who swear before public and later deny calling it a "political statement" are the people to rely on? Do you see these people even capable of dreaming freely?

We do not support actions of any organization who is fighting with our soldiers and countrymen but what good alternative is there to convince them and offer a better and indeed better alternative? I am not even in favor of sparing those people who brainwash to do suicide attacks but for God sake stop putting the same limp, powerless and unproductive system of governance as the solution either.

Changing the system, and convincing the people of Pakistan to change the system is something that is up to Pakistanis like yourself - as I said before, the Pakistani constitution allows for a means to peacefully bring about change by participating in the political process. If your ideas are viable and valid, then you should be able to convince enough Pakistanis to support your positions and your vehicle (political party or movement) at the ballot box.

If we cannot improve our part of system, we cannot expect the others to follow ours and give up theirs.

The Taliban are forcefully imposing their system upon FATA and Swat, and intending to forcefully impose it on the rest of Pakistan - they are not fighting against a change, they are violently bringing about their own medieval and barbaric change. To that end they have murdered hundreds of Tribal maliks and rendered inconsequential the traditional tribal system through brute force and terror.

We are not expecting or forcing the people of FATA to give up their system, the Taliban are. Whatever 'system' the people of FATA want can only be determined by allowing them free and fair elections, without the threat of being killed by the Taliban.

The Taliban here are the criminals and usurpers of tradition and the rights of the people of FATA and the NWFP, not the GoP.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Please stop believing that any one of us is a better Muslim and others are kafir or munkir.

Agreed.

No one is the judge except Book of God and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad PBUH and we are not answerable to any one else except God for our believes and practices. Do we have some disagreement on that?

Yes we do have a disagreement - no one is the judge except for Allah - a book, even Quran, cannot be a judge and is not a judge, and neither is a set of practices recorded by mortal beings (Sunnah).

They are merely guides, and as guides, are open to different interpretations. The only judge of who is right and wrong will be Allah at the end of days.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Why were those who declared their support for extra judicial killings and those who advocated the murder of a human rights activist not warned or threatened with a ban in the same manner? Why the double standards?

What extra-judicial killings? Who supported them?

If you are referring to the extrajudicial killings of the Taliban criminals who raped, murdered and tortured the innocent people of Swat, did you not see the mods intervene there as well and call for calm and point out that extra-judicial killings, even of Taliban criminals, were wrong and should not be condoned?

No actually you are wrong about this, if someone denies the fundamentals of Islam like the qadianis for example I will not hesitate to declare him/them disbelievers.

Again, those who promote deviant beliefs will be declared heretics.

It is not your job to declare any one a non-believer, only Allah's.

Next some rabble rousing hate filled Mullah will declare that the Fundamentals of Islam should be XYZ+W, and therefore the Shia or Ismailis are Kaafir. That is pretty much how that particular incident worked out as well.

Allah is not so weak as to require pathetic human beings to determine who is Muslim and who is not, that after all is what judgment day is suppose to be about.

Will the same hold true for the rabid secularists who's hatred for the Muslims is constantly been expressed on this forum? Will those who throw accusations of Wahabi at anyone who expresses any Islamic leanings also be warned to desist?

Is it only the Muslims that are being addressed here? Or do you include the secularists as well?

People like Tallman have been banned for expressing rather hateful opinions from the secular extreme, and those who throw accusations of Wahabi at anyone who expresses an Islamic leanings have been warned publicly and issued infractions privately.

Hopefully you will apply your rules equally on those who share your beliefs as well as those who are against your ideology.

As best as any man can - no one is perfect, and I will not claim that my own biases do not filter through and effect my moderation, but I do try to keep them at bay.

 

[Conscientious objector]

What extra-judicial killings? Who supported them?

Im sure your aware of the thread Im referring to

If you are referring to the extrajudicial killings of the Taliban criminals who raped, murdered and tortured the innocent people of Swat

To date not a single person who has been proven to belong to the Taiban has been tried and convicted of the oft repeated allegations your making.So much for the rule of law and not parroting unsubstantiated claims.

did you not see the mods intervene there as well and call for calm and point out that extra-judicial killings, even of Taliban criminals, were wrong and should not be condoned?

I didn't see any threats of a ban or the stern warnings we are so used to witnessing every time someone makes Islamic statements.

It is not your job to declare any one a non-believer, only Allah's.

Its not your job to talk about Allah's deen without knowledge.

Next some rabble rousing hate filled Mullah will declare that the Fundamentals of Islam should be XYZ+W, and therefore the Shia or Ismailis are Kaafir. That is pretty much how that particular incident worked out as well.

On the other hand we'll get a rabid secularist foaming at the mouth declaring bush and obama to be Muslims and amir ul mumineen that should be obeyed no matter what.

Allah is not so weak as to require pathetic human beings to determine who is Muslim and who is not

Without doubt Allah azza wa jal is not weak and he subhana wa ta ala is well aware of who is a Muslim and who a kafir not to mention the MUNAFIQEEN.

Having said that there is a need for the Muslims to be aware of what constitutes being a Muslim and what constitutes being a Kafir.Every Muslim must be safeguarded against the false claimants to Islam and that is why the Muslims have the right to declare those who have disbelieved as disbelievers.Not only is it a right but its an obligation.

that after all is what judgment day is suppose to be about.

As always when it comes to matters related to Islam you get it WRONG again, Judgment day is for the akhira (hereafter) not
al hayat u dunya (worldly life).

People like Tallman have been banned for expressing rather hateful opinions from the secular extreme, and those who throw accusations of Wahabi at anyone who expresses an Islamic leanings have been warned publicly and issued infractions privately.

I haven't seen "MUSE" being warned publicly for his anti Islamic, rabid, mouth frothing, lunacy, hatred etc.

As best as any man can - no one is perfect, and I will not claim that my own biases do not filter through and effect my moderation, but I do try to keep them at bay.

I will do my best to point out when your biases overwhelm your judgment.

 

[waraich66]

Changing the system, and convincing the people of Pakistan to change the system is something that is up to Pakistanis like yourself - as I said before, the Pakistani constitution allows for a means to peacefully bring about change by participating in the political process. If your ideas are viable and valid, then you should be able to convince enough Pakistanis to support your positions and your vehicle (political party or movement) at the ballot box.

The Taliban are forcefully imposing their system upon FATA and Swat, and intending to forcefully impose it on the rest of Pakistan - they are not fighting against a change, they are violently bringing about their own medieval and barbaric change. To that end they have murdered hundreds of Tribal maliks and rendered inconsequential the traditional tribal system through brute force and terror.

We are not expecting or forcing the people of FATA to give up their system, the Taliban are. Whatever 'system' the people of FATA want can only be determined by allowing them free and fair elections, without the threat of being killed by the Taliban.

The Taliban here are the criminals and usurpers of tradition and the rights of the people of FATA and the NWFP, not the GoP.

The general public wanted Shariah law but western implanted rulers and supreme court dont , for example shariah bill passed by NWFP assembly but rejected by supreme court.

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Pakistan 'Taleban law' rejected

In that case what is other peace full method to change the law as per public aspirations?

 

[Slides]

The general public wanted Shariah law but western implanted rulers and supreme court dont , for example shariah bill passed by NWFP assembly but rejected by supreme court.

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Pakistan 'Taleban law' rejected

In that case what is other peace full method to change the law as per public aspirations?

That was taliban law, not shariah and thus rejected. Do you get it? Anything that comes out of taliabn and mullahs mouths does not automatically become islam and shairah. These same people also support suicide bombings and beheading pakistanis, so their words do not mean much to me.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Im sure your aware of the thread Im referring to

As should you of the response from the moderators on that issue, as in the case of calls for the killings of Blackwater employees in Pakistan.

To date not a single person who has been proven to belong to the Taiban has been tried and convicted of the oft repeated allegations your making.So much for the rule of law and not parroting unsubstantiated claims.

Most of them have been killed trying to fight the troops deployed to restore order and the rule of law by the Government of Pakistan, and their leadership continues to proudly claim the suicide bombings and threatens to continue the rape of Pakistan under the excuse of spreading "Shariah'.

I didn't see any threats of a ban or the stern warnings we are so used to witnessing every time someone makes Islamic statements.

No one has been threatened with a ban for making Islamic statements - people have been threatened with bans for supporting anarchists and terrorists, and trying to disguise such support for terrorism and anarchism under 'Jihad' will not cut it either.

We have a government and a constitution that governs our country - that alone must be followed. If you do not think it is Islamic enough, peacefully convince people to put your guys into power and change the system.

Its not your job to talk about Allah's deen without knowledge.

It is my job to talk about my faith as I see it - and that is a useless argument on your part, I could merely retort that it is you and people like you going around branding so and so Muslim and non-Muslim on the basis of your own personal narrow interpretation of Islam as being a case of 'talking about Allah's deen without knowledge'.

Allah is the only judge and his authority has not been delegated to any mortal, so do not commit blasphemy and act like Allah.

On the other hand we'll get a rabid secularist foaming at the mouth declaring bush and obama to be Muslims and amir ul mumineen that should be obeyed no matter what.

Rather contradictory argument - why would a rabid secularist be declaring Bush and Obama Muslims and Amir-ul-Momineen who should be obeyed first of all?

I am not sure how your hypothetical case fits here.

If Bush or Obama declare themselves Muslims, then great, so they are, as far as we know, since we cannot look into their hearts. Allah will be the judge in the hereafter.

Without doubt Allah azza wa jal is not weak and he subhana wa ta ala is well aware of who is a Muslim and who a kafir not to mention the MUNAFIQEEN.

Wonderful, then since only he can look into peoples hearts, he will decide in the hereafter.

Having said that there is a need for the Muslims to be aware of what constitutes being a Muslim and what constitutes being a Kafir.Every Muslim must be safeguarded against the false claimants to Islam and that is why the Muslims have the right to declare those who have disbelieved as disbelievers.Not only is it a right but its an obligation.

Muslims are not children who have to be 'safeguarded'. Are we genetically inferior to people of other faiths that we need the protection of some two bit Mullah declaring who amongst us is pure and not?

What nonsense - I have a mind, I can discern truth and validity for myself, I do not need 'protection', nor is there any need for the self appointed 'Guardians of Islam' to run protection rackets.

There are many interpretations of verses in the Quran and the Sunnah, and many disagreements - promote your version as best you can, provided you are not promoting hate and violence and illegality, and people will choose what seems true to their hearts.

As always when it comes to matters related to Islam you get it WRONG again, Judgment day is for the akhira (hereafter) not
al hayat u dunya (worldly life).

And I could once more merely retort that it is you who are wrong - judgment day is for the passing of 'judgment on our worldly lives'.

I haven't seen "MUSE" being warned publicly for his anti Islamic, rabid, mouth frothing, lunacy, hatred etc.

He has not advocated killing anyone, or forcibly imposing (outside of the constitutional bounds of a democratic State) on anyone a particular ideology. He has argued vehemently against any inclusion of religion in the affairs of State, and we have allowed others to vehemently argue in favor of a Shariah State.

However, too often those who argue in favor of a Shariah State, end up exhibiting support for the Taliban and other criminals of their ilk - that is not acceptable.

Pakistan today is neither a purely secular country nor is it a pure 'Shariah' based nation (according to some Islamists) - we have nothing against both sides arguing out their positions and advocating change peacefully - we do have issue with people supporting any sort of violence or anarchist behavior to achieve those goals.

This should be a simple enough rule to follow.

I will do my best to point out when your biases overwhelm your judgment.

Thank you, and while it may not seem like it now, sometimes I do accept fault and back down, but it takes convincing.

 

[waraich66]

That was taliban law, not shariah and thus rejected. Do you get it? Anything that comes out of taliabn and mullahs mouths does not automatically become islam and shairah. These same people also support suicide bombings and beheading pakistanis, so their words do not mean much to me.

You misunderstood , misbah shariah bill was passed by NWFP assembly but rejected by supreme court ?

Justice delayed is justice denied