Pakistan's Noncampaign Against the Taliban

[graphican]

It is not freedom of speech to come on the forum and spew Islamist rubbish -- why do you guysw have such a hard time understabnding that freedoms are conditioned by responsibilities???

How is mentioning of Quraan and Ahadith as the base "an Islamist Rubbish"?

In order to get the US to return to Israel and venture no further than Israel, it is imperative for Muslim majority countries to bring the mad dog Islamist to heel, even more important is to change the politics from personal acrimony to one directed towards policies.

If as a region Muslim majority countries are not able to do this in a short amount of time, US policy will ensure that these countries will exist as landfills.

There are 99.9% Muslims who are so working for Islam and its development that we see Islamic countries full of libraries, factories, production houses and technology centers. These are the Muslims who will tell you we need to do this and we need to do that but will not move their finger in any practical direction. These are the Muslims who's spirit is not merely a matter of concern for the US or Israel. And why should it be? Now consider the other side.

There are some 0.1% Muslims who are not accepting Israel and USA or the Western or Country's Lobby as their mere God! They are hyper, active and motivated people who can do anything to get out of this slavery and they can even give up their best thing, life for the "cause". This is the last burning spark in Muslim Ummah, the only left concern for the US and friends of Zion. Instead of utilizing this fire positively, we are attempting to extinguish it. Wise! Council them, convince them whatever they are doing is harmful for the cause, for the country and Ummah. Do not let them spill into the wrong hands and everybody has seen what happens when RAW or CIA starts using them to their advantage.

You know it is difficult, want to know the reason? Its not that TTP is impossible to convince, It is impossible to give up slavery who 99.9% Muslims enjoy with pride. Its impossible to quit laziness and follow the hard path of our Prophet and Caliphs. It is impossible to read Quraan and understand what is the message of God to the Last Ummah of his beloved Prophet. Finding all that insane? Let me make things easier here. Just ask yourself and answer to yourself

"who was the exemplary person on the face of Earth?

Holy Prophet Muhamamd PBUH

or

(-----------------------)
Feel the luxury of putting any name here.


If later is the guide and best example of human on earth, thank you, enjoy your life and don't read on.

If you subscribe to Prophet Muhammad as the Model, my friend you are asking for a trouble to yourself.

Yeh shahaadat gahe ulfat mein qadam rakhna hay
Loag samajhte hain asan hay Musalman hona

Now lets start calling Iqbal a Fundamentalist, should we?

People who think fundamentalists are wrong, good thinking but this is your opportunity and responsibility to prove that. Do something great and let everybody see what is the path of Wise Muslims who think towards Nation Building and consolidating Ummah as a unit. Show us what is the path that Paksitan needs to counter Israel, India, USA and the rest. If it is difficult, then please stop criticizing people who have taken this stop before you. Even if they are on the wrong path, they were not scum and had enough energy and spirit to do something at least! These are the people who are likely to bring the positive change, not in the mountains but in all walks of Life!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Wahabism is not a sect, absence of sect is called Wahabiasm. They only take their guidance from Quraan and Ahadith and PERIOD, nothing after Quraan and Ahadith.

Yet Another Islamist, Takfiri apologist - one wonder what is it the mods on the forum actually do?

It is not freedom of speech to come on the forum and spew Islamist rubbish -- why do you guysw have such a hard time understabnding that freedoms are conditioned by responsibilities???

I do not see anything wrong with what he said - he is not in the above quoted post condoning the actions of the Taliban, merely defending a particular sect in Islam and its ideology.

Where the moderator team have drawn the line is that we will not tolerate any voicing of support, direct or indirect, for the use of violence to pursue political objectives within Pakistan by non-state entities.

The Tehrike-Taliban (FATA & Swat) Wahabis, Deobandis, Baluch Nationalists and Rebels, Jiyalas, Punjabi militants - whatever. If they choose to use illegal means, especially violence, to achieve political objectives, despite the existence of a democratic political system, they are terrorists and anarchists, and should not be supported by members of this forum, and hopefully by most Pakistanis.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

People who think fundamentalists are wrong, good thinking but this is your opportunity and responsibility to prove that.

Being a fundamentalist is fine, so long as your fundamentalism does not translate into advocacy, support or execution of acts that are violent and/or illegal per the laws of Pakistan.

If you wish to pursue a particular political objective, Shariah, end of support for the US occupation of Afghanistan etc, the Pakistani constitution allows for a peaceful means for you to advance your objectives through the political system.

That is what all Pakistanis need to understand - you have the right to express dissent with State policy, you can criticize it from here to Kingdom Come, but you must do so peacefully, without disrupting the lives of others, and also give those opposing your POV a chance to voice and promote their ideology and objectives, whether it be an 'interpretation of Islam' or pure secularism.

 

[muse]

And I suppose neither the graphician has voiced support when he talks of the 0.1 percent???

 

[muse]

Here's to you Quran quoting, chest thumping supporters of Islamist radicals - this is what you are about?:

Organised crime in Karachi feeding Taliban

* Karachi Citizens Police Liaison Committee director says Taliban not concerned with faith, only money and power
* Police say ransom generated by Taliban kidnappings more than all other abduction cases combined

Daily Times Monitor

LAHORE: The Taliban have started working with criminal groups in Karachi to make fast money through Mafia-style networks that kidnap, rob banks and extort, generating millions of dollars for their insurgency, the New York Times has reported.

“There is overwhelming evidence that it’s an organised policy,” said Dost Ali Baloch, assistant inspector general of Karachi police. Some officials have claimed that the lack of bombings in the metropolis is part of the calculated strategy. “This is where they come to hide, where they raise their finances,” said a counter-terrorism official in Karachi. “They don’t want to disturb that.”

Eighty percent of bank heists are now thought to be linked to the insurgency, authorities say. “The Taliban are a group of thieves,” said a currency exchange owner who was robbed of nearly $2 million last year. “If it was God, they’d steal from Him, too,” he added. Pakistani counter-terrorism officials say they believe that kidnapping for ransom may have been the single largest revenue source for Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan commander Baitullah Mehsud before he was killed.

Not religion: Last year, Mehsud’s network might have held as many as 70 hostages, said a counter-terrorism official on condition of anonymity. Control over these criminal networks might have been responsible for the succession struggle following Mehsud’s death, some analysts have claimed. “The world thinks this is about religion, but that’s a mistake,” said Sharfuddin Memon, director in Karachi of the Citizens Police Liaison Committee. “It’s about money and power. Faith has nothing to do with it.”

Maximum income: Though just 10 percent of kidnappings are connected to the Taliban, according to the police, the ransoms they generate — generally $60,000 to $250,000 each — collect more money than all the other cases combined.

The same goes for bank robberies. Raja Umer Khattab, a senior police officer in Karachi’s Special Investigations Unit, noticed that most robbers had beards and bigger than usual guns, and, unlike ordinary thieves, they tended to kill the security guards. They were taking the banks’ surveillance systems, along with the cash.

“We started seeing a different kind of crime — more professional, more aggressive,” he said. “We realized these criminals were linked to jihadis.”

A recent influx of people into Karachi after being displaced by the military’s offensive in the northwest has expanded opportunities for the Taliban. Many are Pashtuns, the ethnic group most closely associated with the Taliban. Fanned by local politicians, ethnic tensions erupted in clashes that killed dozens this spring in Karachi. The authorities say Taliban-related crime has dropped greatly since then, with the arrests of the crime leaders breaking networks. However, many of the networks are still in place.

In many ways, it is the Pashtuns who suffer most, the report added. Taliban extort money from the biggest oil traders to the smallest house servants, and Pashtuns can do little to resist, because their families remain in areas the Taliban control

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

And I suppose neither the graphician has voiced support when he talks of the 0.1 percent???

I did read that post, and I addressed it in my last post. However, my comments to you above were specifically with respect to Graphican's comments you chose to highlight in your post above.

Back to the other comments by Graphican that, like you, I have issue with in terms of what they imply - I hope that I have made clear to Graphican and others who might be tempted to agree with him what the limits of freedom of speech are, and where we see those limits being broached and crossing into support for terrorism and anarchism.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Its not that TTP is impossible to convince

The TTP has been asked to lay down arms and accept the writ of the state - they could then pursue their objectives peacefully. They have so far refused, instead only recently carrying out a suicide bombing of border guards (Khasadars) and killing over 20 of them.

They have also killed hundreds of tribal elders, and slaughtered hundreds of innocent men women and children in their depraved pursuit of a barbaric and medieval form of Islam. The joy of the majority of the people of Swat, and the revenge killings against suspected Taliban members, bear testimony to the cruelty and barbarity of Taliban rule.

Nizam-e-Adl was imposed in Swat - the Taliban instead chose to expand even further and forcibly occupied Buner and Shangla. The Taliban have shown themselves to be incapable of 'listening'. Your suggestion has been tried and has failed comprehensively. But the GoP is still offering the Taliban a chance to surrender.

The ball is in the Taliban court now - they can continue to be enemies of the State and enemies of enlightenment and progress, or they can lay down their arms and peacefully work through the political system to achieve their objectives.

 

[muse]

Where the moderator team have drawn the line is that we will not tolerate any voicing of support, direct or indirect, for the use of violence to pursue political objectives within Pakistan by non-state entities

And therfore you will want to act in which way about the following:

Its not that TTP is impossible to convince, It is impossible to give up slavery who 99.9% Muslims enjoy with pride. Its impossible to quit laziness and follow the hard path of our Prophet and Caliphs. It is impossible to read Quraan and understand what is the message of God to the Last Ummah of his beloved Prophet. Finding all that insane?

And this :

Wahabism is not a sect, absence of sect is called Wahabiasm.

This exclusivist claim is not offensive? Is this not in spirit the talib or AQ's excusivist claim?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

And therfore you will want to act in which way about the following:

Continuing support, indirect or direct, of violent Islamist radicals, or those who support those radicals, will result in a ban. I will however give him a chance to respond to my posts to see what position he decides to take.

This exclusivist claim is not offensive? Is this not in spirit the talib or AQ's excusivist claim?

I do find this exclusivist claim extremely offensive - it is no mortal being's place to pass judgment on who is and who is not a Muslim, nor on whose Islam is the true Islam.

And I will admit that I overlooked it while responding to the more specific Taliban related issue.

On this count as well, the forum cannot allow people to promote hate in this guise - exclusivist claims such as these are offensive to those who may not belong or agree with that particular ideology.

Members must refrain from such claims and posts, and hopefully Graphican and others will heed this warning as well or risk having their posting rights removed.

 

[Awesome]

Coming back to the topic... How credible are international magazine articles when the anti-Pakistani commentary comes off from an Indian origin guy?

I don't know how he got to the determination that Operation Rah-e-Nijat has been abandoned, or Pakistan likes to keep the TTP around (sort of like the argument that America likes to keep the Osama monster alive)... It's pretty ridiculous how the Indians are allowed to insert their propaganda in otherwise respectable publications.

 

[muse]

Indian, US or Martians can be countered -- quoting verses of Quran out of context, what about these? When we begin by counteriung them, what kind of door are we opening??? And what do we do to any topic when the beginning and end is religion on the terms of Islamist radicals?

Iqbal's major work was "Reconstruction of Religious thought in Islam" and in the first two pages he begin with a defense of the idea of FAITH, but our Islam as a political ideology crew will never speak of faith - instead verses out of context to support war on the state, war on the infidel, war on other muslims -- and we give them an opportunity to do so by tolerating this in the name of discussion forum - a huge disservice to forum members and to the forum -- past experience shows what happens to forums such as ours when the Islamist are allowed to spread their poison.

 

[Awesome]

Just to add to Muse's argument about Iqbal's words vs the Mullahs:

I too was present there and could not hold my tongue
When the Lord ordered the mullah to Paradise!
Said I, "Lord! Forgive my boldness but
He will not like the houris and the flasks of wine
Paradise is not the place of 'He said' and 'They said'
Argument and disputation is this pious man's trade!
To bring disunity to the nation and the people is his work
And Paradise contains neither mosque, nor church, nor temple!"

Original:

ملااور بہشت

ميں بھي حاضر تھا وہاں ، ضبط سخن کر نہ سکا
حق سے جب حضرت ملا کو ملا حکم بہشت
عرض کي ميں نے ، الہي! مري تقصير معاف
خوش نہ آئيں گے اسے حور و شراب و لب کشت
نہيں فردوس مقام جدل و قال و اقول
بحث و تکرار اس اللہ کے بندے کي سرشت
ہے بد آموزي اقوام و ملل کام اس کا
اور جنت ميں نہ مسجد ، نہ کليسا ، نہ کنشت​

 

[Patriot]

By the way graphican the people who you call western minded people are the reason Pakistan is still here.It is those highly educated individuals who have saved us and made us nuclear capable and mad our armed forces extremely professional unlike tin pot arab armed forces.You are mixing anti americanism with development of your OWN country.So think about it.I am no fan of USA either you need to read my previous posts.

 

[Spring Onion]

Yet Another Islamist, Takfiri apologist - one wonder what is it the mods on the forum actually do?

It is not freedom of speech to come on the forum and spew Islamist rubbish -- why do you guysw have such a hard time understabnding that freedoms are conditioned by responsibilities???

.

I would differe with you Muse atleast on this. Why you should be allowed to come on forum and Spwe Rubish against Islam while others should be banned for doing otherwise?

It is also not freedom that anyone should be stopped from airing views which are opposit to neo-liberals.

And indeed freedoms are conditioned with responsibilities for both sides why one should be allowed to misuse is while the others should be discriminated.

@ Mods/Admins: There is big difference between supporting Islam and defending and supporting the militants. Radicalism is again a term which could be twisted to suit one's point of view.

My only argument is that if i Oppose Drone attacks, if i oppose killing of people in Frontier and if i oopose making NWFP people foder for interests of US and our elite would i be called Islamists?? Radical? if we are claiming to support freedom of expression then lets agree that if we differe with views of Muse that doesnt make us terrorists or supporters of terrorists.

Almost 99% members here are against TTP and al-Qaeda and other terrorist organisation. But if Muse calls our support for Islam as Islamic Rubish then indeed very unfortunate.

Thanks

 

[Javed3]

Hopefully the US will invest in building a better Pakistan; with a vibrant economy, great education, great health services, and an ideology based on moderate enlightenment.

Hopefully the US will rid our country of Islamic extremist way of life; and help butcher all those who sport beards and waste time in mosques.

Hopefully the US forces will help transform Pakistan into a Tourist and R&R paradise; like they did in Thailand, Philippines and Korea. Our females are no less than anybody in carnal charms and beauty. This industry will surpass cotton garments export target of US$ 25 b / year by a wide margin.