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Pakistan's New Fighter Jets Can Change the Balance: The Impact of Pakistan's First...

well....yes i agree somewhat...but the LCA mark II has been anounced and the LCA have been flying and completing their testing hours....and what a lot of people are thinking is that the people higher up...are not satisfied with the current LCA...

We will talk about the mark II when it comes out. Its still 3-5 years away.

Some of those "flying hours" where just going for a ride. 1100hrs is good enough time for a plane to open up its flight envelope.


not because they didn't get what they paid for...but that the air-power dynamics have changed quite rapidly in the last decade....and believe me when it comes to investing millions...we look at what china is keeping in her hangers...the LCa is a good plane...the time and the overruns make the program inefficient i agree...but i believe the LCA that'd show'p on the your RADARs and on the heads-up-displays...would be a derivative of the current LCA you despise...


and please...it doesn't have as many foreign components as has your thunder...don't you agree?
Kaveri is being developed and we are not foolish in trying too many things at once...don't you realize that...it'd not be far when we achieve the required thrust/weight ratio...and we'd have our own supersonic engine...i reckon that it's good to keep your books open when your exams have been postponed indefinitely....
try to look at things like this...the indian army and the airforce...have high standards...national pride is important...but being absolutely sure that you'd have the right tools to waste the other guy is supreme..

There is nothing wrong with developing Kaveri..in fact it will be a tremendous boost to India.

But in my opinion it was foolish project management to link Kaveri to the Tejas and use the present engine as an interim. Seriously, someone was too high with patriotism/self-confidence when he/she made this decision.

Look at China...they are also building engines and not just one kaveri but lots of them. But did J-10 or JF-17 revolved around WS-10 or WS-13? I can very well imagine the fate of these two aircrafts if they had chosen the WS-10 as linked it with J-10.

The outcome is that J-10 is flying nicely while WS-10 is still being tested out. As soon as it becomes available, it can be replaced as the J-10's main engine. Indians realized this a bit too late into the project...in other words, the LCA shouldn't have been looking at another engine apart from kaveri right now.


if i were you i'd understand that the airforce which boasts of trying to create and maintain 42 squadrons in 10 years...is helluvalot serious about it's machines!

no we don't.yes yes...i know i am a troll

Even your own sources have claimed that. I am afraid there isn't much for you to fall back against.

they are increasing the thrust/weight in the mark 2...

By that time, LCA would have already entered its 3rd decade of "development".

My point here is not LCA is a bad move or will turn out to be a bad plane, but the project itself has been grossly mishandled and one factor for that was over confidence/ lack of vision. The engine they are looking now, the help they are looking now could have been sought a decade and half earlier and things would have been in much better shape without compromising the learning curve.
 
mean_bird....
the guys developing the LCA dont lack the vision...
i recently read an article by the guy heading the LCa program...
he talked about how in 1983 india started with all the 2nd gen tech in a quest to develop a 3-4 gen plane..and ended up with a 4.5 gen plane that is the LCA....
the LCa has had problems as has been pointed out by the IAF and thee...but in the process we've learnt to develop digital f-b-w...avionics..the glass cockpit concept...night-day attack capability...massive integration of carbon fibres and other RAMs and are pursuing the crystal blade tech in the development of the engine...heck! here is the article...
domain-b.com : AeroIndia 2009: LCA programme over the hump - 2nd gen to 4+, says ADA director, Dr PS Subramanyam

the whole program has somewhat accustomed us to the 4.5 gen technologies...which is a basis for developing the MCA...
all said the markII i believe is gonna be the LCA with the problems remedied...

about the Jf-17....i am still to be told about the pakistani involvement in the project...in temrs of the technology.
and as far as the missiles and nukes are concerned...i'd care to look at them sources...
 
You want to start it all over again? I think it has been discussed fairly well in this thread and you have been part of it.

Its been discussed to death on that thread and I do not want to convert another thread into that. If you insist, here are a few references

1. Asia Times Online :: South Asia news, business and economy from India and Pakistan

2. India lags behind Pakistan in missiles - India - The Times of India

3. Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - Pakistan surges well ahead of India in missile technology

4.



Again the point is not if LCA is a good plane or its comparison with JF-17, but look at it on its own and from a project point of view.
 
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exactly mean_bird i like this part>>but then again we are told some of its technology is secret so how can we judge what we do not know?
And my conclusion is same as your we do not know the inside out of F-22 exactly so its too early to called this bird a failure by the writer..the F117 operation history if you read had initially gone under troubles after it was reveled officially by US that F117A a stealth exists..on first mission it missed target because of wrong coordinates and media labeled it as first mission failure..US has come long way down from 1978 and on till on working with stealth and its avionics and vise versa..and also thankyou for the useful link u provided.

Luftwaffe,

You and I do not know for sure exactly what technologies go into the F-22 but the writer of that article is the father of the F-16 and has contributed on many aircraft designs. Certainly, we cannot rubbish his arguments because he certainly knows much better than us.

I don't think the writer is saying F-22 is a useless plane but is saying there could have been better alternatives.

Firstly, is the cost-benefit analysis. When F-22 was started, it envisaged 648 plane to bring the cost down and the decision was based on that. But with reduction in orders, the price has shot up. Would DoD have decided in favor of this fighter if it had known the cost would be $350m a copy?

Then he says that less effort was put into considering combat effective agility and sortie rates. For example we know that the stealth is highly maintenance extensive so every few sorties the plane would be back to hanger or risk loosing its stealth which is its primary plus-point.

His third major point is that it has not been sufficiently tested. Like against enemy radars and way too much wishful thinking and over-confidence goes into BVR. What's interesting (and new to me at least) is that ordinary radars have been routinely detecting all of US stealth fighters. Well, we know for sure serbia brought down the F-117.

He also argues that all exercises conducted have rules that "cripple" the enemy and do not represent a realistic scenario of what an enemy can and will do, especially an enemy with a decent airforce where the F-22 will be used ( you dont need it in Iraq or A-tan).

We may assume that like most writers, he too may have some bias since he and his colleagues (Boyd) brought the E-M idea and that changing philosophies is not that easy. But he certainly makes some sense here.
 
You want to start it all over again? I think it has been discussed fairly well in this thread and you have been part of it.

Its been discussed to death on that thread and I do not want to convert another thread into that. If you insist, here are a few references

1. Asia Times Online :: South Asia news, business and economy from India and Pakistan

2. India lags behind Pakistan in missiles - India - The Times of India

3. Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - Pakistan surges well ahead of India in missile technology

4. PBmmCazGDGI[/media] - India accepts that Pakistan's atomic missile technology is superior then India



Again the point is not if LCA is a good plane or its comparison with JF-17, but look at it on its own and from a project point of view.

hey...i am sorry for the late reply...
brother i have read those reports...but i failed to come across a single line that stated that the indian missiles are inferior in quality to their pakistani counters...infact i quote from one of the reported artciles by you...""Unlike Pakistan, our programme is indigenous. "
i read about the delays in testing....the insufficiency of numbers...against your battle ready missiles which one of these reports claimed to be "chinese,north-korean and pakistani in orgin"
 
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JF17 will change the balance from Nil BVR in PAF versis 300 BVR in IAF as we speak today.

Just the fact that the PAF will have BVR SD10 armed missle will give IAF food for thought.

IAF was too far head with SU30MKI Mirage 2000 & mig29s

Even the small fleet of F16s are not yet BVR capable til 2011 with MLU.
 
JF17 will change the balance from Nil BVR in PAF versis 300 BVR in IAF as we speak today.

Just the fact that the PAF will have BVR SD10 armed missle will give IAF food for thought.

IAF was too far head with SU30MKI Mirage 2000 & mig29s

Even the small fleet of F16s are not yet BVR capable til 2011 with MLU.

Dude spouting the same ole crap continuously does not make it right... Even as we stand you can't get into PAK airspace so....you are not as far ahead as you would like to think.
 
The Mirage 2000h and the Mig29A are the oldest (qand still un-upgraded) version in the world. I doubt that they are that dangerous while JF17 is getting operational. Only MKI and even that it is questionable. We have seen tougher and better planes being beaten in Pakistan-India wars... We have seen 5 to 1 difference. With Pakistan getting latest in a year and highly improves other assets we can sleep tight.
 
@ munir...
tell me about the time when inferior paf planes were up against superor IAf planes...i am just curious.
 
@ munir...
tell me about the time when inferior paf planes were up against superor IAf planes...i am just curious.

PAF F-86 Sabre downing InAF Mig-21. Want to ask about the inferior PAF numbers against superior InAF numbers too?
 
I think Kargil in 1999 sums up everything for me.

IAF supported their ground troops with JAGS/MIG27 & Mirage 2000 and BVR cover was provided by Mig29s

The NLI of the Pak Army where left stranded with the PAF staying out completely.

Recent revelations of sanctions leaving hardly any F16s operational and no BVR capable fighters left PAF in no position to challenge.

IAF flew total immune to PAF engagement.

Until F16/52 arrive (if they arrive at all) this scenario will not change much esp now that Phalcon Awacs has arrived and SU30MKI nos are beginning to rise thanks to 5/6 operational sqds.
 
I think Kargil in 1999 sums up everything for me.

IAF supported their ground troops with JAGS/MIG27 & Mirage 2000 and BVR cover was provided by Mig29s

The NLI of the Pak Army where left stranded with the PAF staying out completely.

Recent revelations of sanctions leaving hardly any F16s operational and no BVR capable fighters left PAF in no position to challenge.

IAF flew total immune to PAF engagement.

Until F16/52 arrive (if they arrive at all) this scenario will not change much esp now that Phalcon Awacs has arrived and SU30MKI nos are beginning to rise thanks to 5/6 operational sqds.

HMMM and there I was thinking that the Bofors guns that played the decisive part there.......:rolleyes: that and the politicians on paks side......But hey the casualties were low right? or did you lose aircraft?

But hey lets not let your amateur fanboy ness get in the way of reality!!! I really hope that Aliens can attack and the MKI can show us all how to get through force fields and destroy the alien mothership!
 
PAF F-86 Sabre downing InAF Mig-21. Want to ask about the inferior PAF numbers against superior InAF numbers too?

in the 1965 war...you had the f-86 sabre and we had gnats...
in the 1971 war...you had the f-104 starfighter the best of that time...you've always had the quantitative edge over us in both the wars...and yes numerical superiority does come handy....but it's a trade-off....
 
in the 1965 war...you had the f-86 sabre and we had gnats...
in the 1971 war...you had the f-104 starfighter the best of that time...you've always had the quantitative edge over us in both the wars...and yes numerical superiority does come handy....but it's a trade-off....
Rubbish.
In 1965, F-104 scared InAF but gnats were nicknamed "sabre slayers". It was InAF's fault for thinking F-104 was some kind of wonder plane when it simply was not - it was just very fast. Of course they realised that by 71.
In 1971:
- InAF had Mig-21, superior to F-86 and a far better dogfighter than F-104.
- PAF was under sanctions, did not have enough spares for F-104 and F-86, had to cannibalise some F-86.

PAF needed dogfighters, F-104 was useless at dogfighting. In 65 InAF had the "sabre slayer" and in 71 the Mig-21 too.

PAF being qualitively ahead is BS, a half-truth at best. InAF was ALWAYS numerically superior by far.

I think Kargil in 1999 sums up everything for me.

IAF supported their ground troops with JAGS/MIG27 & Mirage 2000 and BVR cover was provided by Mig29s

The NLI of the Pak Army where left stranded with the PAF staying out completely.

Recent revelations of sanctions leaving hardly any F16s operational and no BVR capable fighters left PAF in no position to challenge.

IAF flew total immune to PAF engagement.

Until F16/52 arrive (if they arrive at all) this scenario will not change much esp now that Phalcon Awacs has arrived and SU30MKI nos are beginning to rise thanks to 5/6 operational sqds.

Maverick's dream: PAF was scared of InAF's invincible BVR capable Migs.

Reality: PAF was stockpiling F-16 spare parts and preparing for a full scale war with the above mentioned BVR capable Migs.
 
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in the 1965 war...you had the f-86 sabre and we had gnats...
in the 1971 war...you had the f-104 starfighter the best of that time...you've always had the quantitative edge over us in both the wars...and yes numerical superiority does come handy....but it's a trade-off....
Nope, Mig21 was in 65 and it was like F22 Raptor at that time but poor Indian pilots got shot down..also PAF shot down 2 migs21 in Pathankot in 65 on ground....What a utter stupiditiy.Imagine if it happens to F22...USAF would fire Base commander and Squardon commander immediately.
17 December 1971[1] PAF F-86F FltLt Maqsood Amir shot down IAF MiG-21FL "C716"
Also, Mig21 was far superior to anything PAF had.
 
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