Pakistan’s emphatic no to Afghanistan

[Bang Galore]

Pakistan would be clearing the last hurdle in India's rise to great power status? To be fair India cannot rise as a great power without Pakistan's acquiesce. What more do you want? A friend Pakistan on your west -

Have heard this from Pakistan but I'm not sure how that will happen. Second, the asking price of Pakistan for "friendship" is Kashmir, a price that will remain unpaid. Pakistanis have made a fetish of this "bania mentality" thing & assume that India will somehow be forced to compromise on territorial issues for trade. That will never happen.

The question was -- we did't see India say -- in return for Afghan access we will give you this -- it was this access is good for Pakistan, good for Afghanistan -- you will become a toll collector -- thank you very much -- no

That is Pakistan's call, Pakistan then says goodbye to other SAARC states and will eventually be sidelined from this grouping. India will use Iran, a slightly costlier but far more viable transit route. Pakistan would have gained how?

No the comment was sarcasm -- it had nothing to do wit wallowing in he past -- the point was -- let's be honest. True India has granted Pakistan an MFN but my expectation form Indian Intellectual (and pseudo Intellectuals) who be to beat their chests with Intellectual honesty -- When our Indian Friends cry fouls they should at least in fine print say: by they way there are numerous hurdles for Pakistanis to use that MFN -- that was the only point being made.

I got your sarcasm but referred only to the point germane to the discussion. As I said, we can all have different complaints about the past but are we going to hold the present & future hostage to it?

If there are hurdles in the MFN, the best way to resolve it is to press for action. Unfortunately given Pakistan's own lack of action in the matter. there is little to persuade Indian officials to work for better access. No such thing as a free lunch. BD has similar problems but it has used its influence to get India to work with it on standards & certification to allow BD products better access. Pakistan can't do the same because it offers nothing in return.

Here's a link on this subject matter from a Pakistani source that I meant to put in my previous post.
Pakistan vs rest of South Asia | Pakistan Today

As one of the most decent Indian Prime ministers (not this thug that the Indian people have sadly elected) said: the sky is the limit -- Man Mohan Singh

Referring to the Indian PM as a "thug" is pointless & simply detracts from a sensible discussion.

Manmohan Singh's sky is the limit still underlined the fact that there will be no territorial changes. Come with an actual position that you wish us to consider and we can discuss it.

 

[Spectre]

Come seriously??

Seriously!

India will give up Arunachal Pradesh -- sure I guess Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai -- keep his holiness

Kashmir pay be zara ghaur kar lain -- Pak Hindi Bhai Bhai -- Lal topi wala lay lain.

I am saying no India would never part with its strategic territories which both AP and Kashmir qualify as. I have just said these are the only things (Dalai Lama and Arunachal Pradesh) India has and China wants. Made no comments about offering them to China. It would be a political Hara Kiri if any politician even dreams about it.

Yar this comment is disingenuous -- come on this not a school yard brawl

Maybe a little but then quid quo pro is the nature of the game. No country would give something away w/o getting something in return.

Bhaijan that exactly what I'm saying -- we are in agreement -- that when our Indian brothers (intellectual brothers not 56-inch ki chatti wala) cite the MFN they are being dishonest, lack of full disclosure -- the MFN is a joke in it's current form.

Bhaijan Pakistani companies want to invent in India -- as I said -- India cannot realize it's big power status without
normalizing it's relationship with Pakistan. As a huge economy the concession doesn't cost India much for the gains.

I agree. But its not the matter of how little it is costing India but what India is getting in return.

Not sure if i agree with this policy. It would be better if India thinks strategically ahead like China instead of indulging in petty transactional relationships and tit for tat squabbles but unfortunately most politicians in democracy don't think further than 3 or 4 years.

As one of the most decent Indian Prime ministers (not this thug that the Indian people have sadly elected) the sky is the limit -- Man Mohan Singh

I am not a huge fan of Modi but common Manmohan Singh was a poor joke best forgotten. Poor guy had infinite no of strings attached to him.

 

[Green Angel]

Pakistan won't allow India to export terrorist to Afghanistan ....................through so called trade....

 

[pakistani342]

Have heard this from Pakistan but I'm not sure how that will happen. Second, the asking price of Pakistan for "friendship" is Kashmir, a price that will remain unpaid. Pakistanis have made a fetish of this "bania mentality" thing & assume that India will somehow be forced to compromise on territorial issues for trade. That will never happen.

Oh bhai -- we Pakistan are crooked -- let's talk about enlightened Indian thinking.

If I remember you along with our Indian brothers lecture us scoundrels.

No we're talking friendship here -- India/Pakistan trade would lead to normalization of ties which would accelerate India's rise and would be very beneficial for Pakistan. Offering tariff concessions for India does't cost it much. It also balances China out.

As I said -- Pakistan close mind backward peoples -- Magar aap to Ahimsay kay farzandy arjumand hain.

Some formulation of Kashmir would be to take the relationship to different level -- but right now we were talking just made.

Yar chalo Banya bura ya Terrorist bura -- Appa Banya hum Terrorist -- 56-inch ki chatti wala bhi acha -- khush?

That is Pakistan's call, Pakistan then says goodbye to other SAARC states and will eventually be sidelined from this grouping. India will use Iran, a slightly costlier but far more viable transit route. Pakistan would have gained how?

Bahijan Iran aur app jitni meethi batain karian -- batain hi rahain gi.

The only country that can offer India a quantum leap is Pakistan. Normalization of relations with Pakistan can propel India is ways all other other SAARC countries put together cannot in 50 years. Koshis kar lain.

I got your sarcasm but referred only to the point germane to the discussion. As I said, we can all have different complaints about the past but are we going to hold the present & future hostage to it?

Again no one is complain about the past -- I'm just point out:
1. Intellectual dishonesty -- which is sad -- I mean come on even Pakistani intellectual have dropped that -- and lal topi wala is not a Pakistani intellectual
2. Pakistan are ok backward, blah, blah, close minded -- so now let's look at the forward thinking people

If there are hurdles in the MFN, the best way to resolve it is to press for action. Unfortunately given Pakistan's own lack of action in the matter. there is little to persuade Indian officials to work for better access. No such thing as a fee lunch. BD has similar problems but it has used its influence to get India to work with it on standards & certification to allow BD products better access. Pakistan can't do the same because it offers nothing in return.

Here's a link on this subject matter from a Pakistani source that I meant to put in my previous post.
Pakistan vs rest of South Asia | Pakistan Today

Look I will read that -- right now I'm having fun -- one article does not capture reality.

As I said Pakistan bad -- Pakistanis backward -- now lets see what forward thinking visionary leadership India is providing -- sadly and I say this sincerely -- it even does not even display intellectual honesty.

Put all SARC, Iran ... bla bla bla in one basket -- it is Pakistan that like it or not is India's king maker.

 

[Spectre]

Pakistan won't allow India to export terrorist to Afghanistan ....................through so called trade....

Ok, so i guess you have drank the Kool Aid

 

[Green Angel]

Ok, so i guess you have drank the Kool Aid

 

[pakistani342]

Seriously!

Baray mahar bani Mars probe kay sath aap bhi Mars chaly jain

I am saying no India would never part with its strategic territories which both AP and Kashmir qualify as. I have just said these are the only things (Dalai Lama and Arunachal Pradesh) India has and China wants. Made no comments about offering them to China. It would be a political Hara Kiri if any politician even dreams about it.

Bahi agar daina nahin to moun kyun khola -- holiness ko bhi apnay paas rakhian

Maybe a little but then quid quo pro is the nature of the game. No country would give something away w/o getting something in return.

Bhai kaun kah raha hay itnay mehraban ho jain?

I agree. But its not the matter of how little it is costing India but what India is getting in return.

Not sure if i agree with this policy. It would be better if India thinks strategically ahead like China instead of indulging in petty transactional relationships and tit for tat squabbles but unfortunately most politicians in democracy don't think further than 3 or 4 years.

Are you familiar with marginal cost theory?

I give up -- aap jeet gay -- main Mars chala jata houn -- Pak Cheen Bhai Bhai -- aap say kutti

I am not a huge fan of Modi but common Manmohan Singh was a poor joke best forgotten. Poor guy had infinite no of strings attached to him.

Muck Fodi!!!! (bhai bura nah mañana)

 

[Spectre]

Baray mahar bani Mars probe kay sath aap bhi Mars chaly jain




Bahi agar daina nahin to moun kyun khola -- holiness ko bhi apnay paas rakhian



Bhai kaun kah raha hay itnay mehraban ho jain?



Are you familiar with marginal cost theory?

I give up -- aap jeet gay -- main Mars chala jata houn -- Pak Cheen Bhai Bhai -- aap say kutti



Muck Fodi!!!!

Yes being a finance professional i am very aware marginal cost theory and economics of scale what's your point? The curve is U shaped which means cost initially decreases for each additional unit produced then increases.

Weather in Mars is rough these days, major duststorm approaching, courtsey MoM

 

[pakistani342]

Yes being a finance professional i am very aware marginal cost theory and economics of scale what's your point? The curve is U shaped which means cost initially decreases for each additional unit produced then increases.

Weather in Mars is rough these days, major duststorm approaching, courtsey MoM

Bhaijan -- main jaa raha houn Mars par -- kyun naraz hain

aap ko app ka modi mubarak -- hamain hamara jarnal mubarak ho

Par dad ka nam shayad Ram Gopal tha -- potay ka nam Abdul hai hi ho ga -- kaya pata Den Xio Peng hi nah ho -- Vande Maataram!

 

[Bang Galore]

No we're talking friendship here -- India/Pakistan trade would lead to normalization of ties which would accelerate India's rise and would be very beneficial for Pakistan. Offering tariff concessions for India does't cost it much. It also balances China out.

So what's stopping Pakistan.

Some formulation of Kashmir would be to take the relationship to different level -- but right now we were talking just made.

Hear this from Pakistanis a lot but everyone shies away from mentioning specifics. Offer a formulation that you see as a win-win situation & we will discuss it.

Bahijan Iran aur app jitni meethi batain karian -- batain hi rahain gi.

The only country that can offer India a quantum leap is Pakistan. Normalization of relations with Pakistan can propel India is ways all other other SAARC countries put together cannot in 50 years. Koshis kar lain.

I don't buy quantum jump etc but trade with Pakistan would be a good thing. Nothing more than that.

Put all SARC, Iran ... bla bla bla in one basket -- it is Pakistan that like it or not is India's king maker.

It's where i believe you are wrong. Pakistan's importance to India is very much overstated. As long as you believe that , you will continue on your course & wonder why India is not appreciating your importance.

 

[pakistani342]

So what's stopping Pakistan.

Oh bhai -- Pakistan bura -- Par aap step lain -- you're one lecturing on how Pakistan is close minded, etc. etc. -- the MFN we agree is just symbolic in the India case - it doesn't do much. Unilaterally ease trade -- otherwise what's the difference between Pakistan and India. Once lectures the other listens?

Hear this from Pakistanis a lot but everyone shies away from mentioning specifics. Offer a formulation that you see as a win-win situation & we will discuss it.

It is in India's strategic interest to de-toxify it's relationship with Pakistan -- being the larger power it can afford to make the initial concession. Like the US did with China.

I don't buy quantum jump etc but trade with Pakistan would be a good thing. Nothing more than that.

Phir baythain rahain -- aik dusaray ko daikh tay rahtain hain.

It's where i believe you are wrong. Pakistan's importance to India is very much overstated. As long as you believe that , you will continue on your course & wonder why India is not appreciating your importance.

Well then we agree to differ -- an India Pakistan grand bargain would be immensely beneficial.

What you forget is that:

1. The Indian civilization is the only great great civilization that is hemmed in -- it neither has the land mass, geographic distribution of the other civilizations, natural resources. Turkey a country of just 80 mil people has almost half of India's scientific publications per year, 1/4 the land mass
a. Consider the West -- Both hemispheres, East and West -- Land mass / population -- Wealth population and 2/3rds the GPD of India a country of 1.2 billion people
b. China the same -- huge land mass -- no existential threats -- resources
c. Muslims -- contagious from Morocco to Pakistan + Malay, Indonesia, Bangladesh / Resources / Diversity / etc.
2. The Indian civilization is largely confined to South Asia -- Pakistanis have already de-orbited -- Bangladesh the jury is out. Indian/Pakistan have nuclear weapons pointed at each other -- running out of water / growing population / resource contention

India civilization-ally -- IMHO -- has to address this open wound.

From an Indian perspective: Pakistanis may delusionaly thinking they have arabified but it doesn't change India's reality -- I think India has to think in the perspective of the next 50-100 years

I wrote this above -- mostly in sarcasm -- but try to understand it -- let's assume Pakistanis are suicidal -- does it mean India should nickel and dime its future.

Par dad ka nam shayad Ram Gopal tha -- potay ka nam Abdul hai hi ho ga -- kaya pata Den Xio Peng hi nah ho -- Vande Maataram!

 

[lightoftruth]

In a long term it is good ,Pakistan in future could have used blocking of that trade corridor in an event of tension.It could have been a bargaining chip,now its refusal has forced the govt to accelerate work on alternatives.we may be paying a short term cost but whose ultimate loss is it when Pakistan itself is denying the economic and strategic transit location it boast of with getting economically isolated.

 

[Bang Galore]

. Unilaterally ease trade -- otherwise what's the difference between Pakistan and India. Once lectures the other listens?

No such luck.

It is in India's strategic interest to de-toxify it's relationship with Pakistan -- being the larger power it can afford to make the initial concession. Like the US did with China.

The US did what with China?In any case what sort of concession were you suggesting?

Well then we agree to differ -- an India Pakistan grand bargain would be immensely beneficial.

To both but not earth shatteringly important.

What you forget is that:

1. The Indian civilization is the hemmed in great civilization -- it neither has the land mass, geographic distribution of the other civilizations:
a. Consider the West -- Both hemispheres, East and West -- Land mass / population -- Wealth population
b. China the same -- huge land mass -- no existential threats -- resources
c. Muslims -- contagious from Morocco to Pakistan + Malay, Indonesia, Bangladesh / Resources / Diversity / etc.
2. The Indian civilization is largely confined to South Asia -- Pakistanis have already de-orbited -- Bangladesh the jury is out. Indian/Pakistan have nuclear weapons pointed at each other -- running out of water / growing population / resource contention

India civilization-ally -- IMHO -- has to address this open wound.

This conversation is at risk of reaching the loony orbit......

 

[pakistani342]

No such luck.




The US did what with China?In any case what sort of concession were you suggesting?

Trade -- that's it -- it's only a matter of time before Pakistan would reciprocate -- any interim cost would be recovered may times over by India.

No such luck.
To both but not earth shatteringly important.

No such luck.
This conversation is at risk of reaching the loony orbit......

Well I've only skimmed Samuel Huntington's thesis and I'm not an expert in this area -- but he didn't think it was in the realm of the looney orbit to consider civilizations instead of just nation states -- intact one of his most ardent critics: Foud Ajami retracted his criticism recently. Anyhow -- I think it myopic to think otherwise if you're not thinking in the civilization timeframes.

To think of India is simply a nation state does it injustice.

Btw, here is Samuel Huntington's civilization map -- copied it from Wikipedia

And, as example, The US China opening can probably be one of the main reasons for the continuing dominance of the US. The economic cycle that has worked between both countries for the past 4+ decades has generated the wealth that allowed China to proper and the US to dominate.

On the No such luck -- I agree -- that is where things will stay.

 

[coffee_cup]

Have the people here, raving about Pakistan blocking Indian trade to CAR heard of International North-South Transport Corridor?

Unlike the much vaunted CPEC, this is almost done and will not only connect the Indians to CAR but all the way to Russia.

It is not a land route or should we ignore "only a thousand or so km" of the sea?

Have heard this from Pakistan but I'm not sure how that will happen. Second, the asking price of Pakistan for "friendship" is Kashmir, a price that will remain unpaid. ..

Wrong, the asking price from Pakistan is Kashmir AND the end to Indian cross-border terrorism.