Pakistan Stealthy Fighter

Discussion in 'Pakistan Air Force' started by Max The Boss, May 17, 2009.

  1. Max The Boss

    Max The Boss FULL MEMBER

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    Is Pakistan Aeronautical Complex capable to launch its 5th generation stealthy fighter aircraft program?

    Pakistan Aeronautical Complex can take assistance from Shenyang Aircraft Industry Corporation and Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation.

    As Pakistan has developed close ties with China's aerospace industry and has license produced and modified many China’s planes, it can be predicted that a future Pakistan 5th generation stealthy fighter would include some, if not many Chinese technologies and designs.

    Pakistan Air force need 5th generation stealthy fighters in 2015, Pakistan Air force should add 5th generation stealthy fighters between 2015 – 2020.
     
  2. gambit

    gambit PROFESSIONAL

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    Neither the Russians nor the Chinese have anything remotely close to the retired F-117. I have already pointed out the while there is no agreed upon Radar Cross Section (RCS) value that would make an aircraft 'stealth' or not, the current crop of US 'stealth' aircrafts are the unofficial standards for low observable aircrafts. So before you ask this question, you should ask if Pakistan is capable of launching an indigenous aviation program that could produce a 'non-stealth' aircraft, let alone one as complex as a low observable design.

    Just to give you a couple examples...

    d8af3d0e3a92e4aa927d75d3fe162369.jpg

    98d2064d76580fbfe01fc1e2dd0a0050.jpg

    The top image is an example of a 'radar range' ground test facility. This type of testing facility is required and its products MUST be independent from other sources, meaning Pakistan cannot accept the Russians or the Chinese claims about a design's RCS value. Pakistan's aviation engineers must perform their own analysis. Notice the pattern in the concrete area. That is to minimize ground reflections. Details like this are crucial and if Pakistan does not have the expertise at this level, Pakistan will not be able to produce any 'stealth' designs.

    The bottom image is a life-size model of the A-12/SR-71 on a pylon. Notice the pylon is round. Radar signals behave differently on a curved surface than on a planar so a round pylon would give minimum returns to the test results. Notice the model is upside down and the vertical stabs are missing. Why are they not installed could be for measurements purposes, or for other reasons.

    Sorry to burst anyone's bubble but Pakistan have a long way to go and be assured that other countries are not resting on what they have. By the time either the Russians or the Chinese can wield something the equal of the retired F-117, a passive RCS reduction scheme, the F-22 and its brethen designs will have active RCS reduction methods. In this technology race, the only way you can catch up to your opponent is if he collapses.
     
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  3. niaz

    niaz PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Agreed. Also there are serious financial constraints. However, one cannot stop people from dreaming and hoping.
     
  4. PAFAce

    PAFAce PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Good reply overall, gambit, not too much I can disagree with. No bubble bursting though, we realize that we're pretty damn far from "stealth", crawl before you walk kind of thing. Only thing I disagree with is the fact that you think every country will have to go through an F-117 type aircraft before becoming a serious contender in the "stealth" field. I don't see any reason for that. I expect most countries to start off with either a stealth bomber, as the B-2, or with a VLO fighter, such as the F-35. I don't expect any "Have Blues" from the Russians or the Chinese anytime soon.

    Edit

    I reread what you wrote. Yes, passive stealth will have to come before active, for any country.
     
  5. gambit

    gambit PROFESSIONAL

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    If you mean that the indigenous design would have the appearance similar to the F-117 then you are correct, I do not expect Pakistan to reinvent the wheel. The F-117 was designed with 1970s technology where only senior engineers have something exotic called a 'personal computer' that can have as much as 512mb or system RAM. Wow...And that the thing took up half the room. The next generation of low observable designs were designed with supercomputers that can calculate nuclear explosions and this level of technology is available now to everyone.

    That said...Tools are no good if the user does not know how to exploit their full potential and when the intended product is supposed to be for national defense, meaning the survival of the nation and the sovereignty of its territory, anything less than 100% proficiency of the available tools and the nation is at the mercy of outsiders. Take a look at US allies for the last half century under The Cold War. Same for the Warsaw Pact. Everyone was utterly dependent upon his sponsor, the US or the Soviet Union, for technical resources, trainings and operations. The more technologically advanced the country, the higher it is on the alliance hierarchy and therefore the more influential it is in terms of protectorate status, economic and military assistance and the list is long. Technology and the proficiency of such can make or break a country's image as 'alliance worthy', meaning everyone, even the most powerful like the US, will want favorable relation with this country.

    But as far as military aviation goes, Pakistan can do much for her image by, through a totally indigenous program, wield something similar to the new F-15SE or the F-18 Super Hornet. Both have some RCS reduction measures installed onto their basic airframes. This design does not have to mimick the highly planar-ed and angular approach of the F-117. Basic radar principles are taught at the university level. The issues now are resources and the necessary experiences to apply those basic principles.
     
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  6. MastanKhan

    MastanKhan PDF VETERAN

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    Hi,

    Thankyou Gambit. One thing is for sure about pak millitary establishment---their engr dept don't believe in re-inventing the wheel. But rather get whatever technolgy they can and move ahead with it.

    But the bottomline is pak has no ability to "produce" any kind of aircraft---warbirds---on their own.

    The only thing the PAF can hope to do is be like the corporation---3M---for the catic. Other than that, they don't have much to offer. Niether there is a solid base of research and engineering---nor there is solid base of engineering manufacturing---nor high quality machine tooling of aircraft quality is available for the next generation type of aircraft. No research in metalurgy----the only thing that we have is our exposure to the F 16's and the mirage type of aircraft----that does not make us capable of coming up with anything substantial.

    Technically, we are way up there to our max---just the partnership in producing whatever we can of JF 17---has stretched our abilities to the extreme---and whatever we are producing does not take us to the stealth level.
     
  7. vizier

    vizier FULL MEMBER

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    While doing 5th gen. fighter research China can share and experiment with frontal aspect rcs reduction techniques like the ones used on F 15 SE on JF 17 and J 10 and since it is an airframe based approach China can share data with Pakistan to be used in Jf 17 production lines.

    Also Iran can produce different types of fighters and fighter radars. Their experience can also be of help with tot from both sides. For example Iran does not have the long range cruise missile technology like Pakistan posesses and perhaps you have come to a degree of multiple reentry vehicle based mrbm designs. Also Iran already produces Kowsar radar guided anti-ship missiles which can be combined with Babur's long range giving you long range anti-ship missile capability. I mean we complement each other in different ways and we can share to develop ourselves overall.
     
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    Last edited: May 18, 2009
  8. Zarbe Momin

    Zarbe Momin FULL MEMBER

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    Very nice idea to share technology but who will do this. Look for example Pakistan is in crisis nobody is giving us moral support. Although we have given moral support to Turkey in every matter, similarlay on Atomic issue india given vote against Iran but Pakistan supported Iran but still Iran is friendly with India doing import-export although we are muslim and neighbour but india is not. Same is with middle east. Now this thinking is coming in Pakistan that nearly 62 pakistan supported all islamic countries but most islamic countries in 62 did'nt supported even morally. But let me say Turkey, Saudi arabia are best friends of Pakistan. Iran just look on its own interest not to any other thing.................!But being a muslim country pakistan always helps Iran. Let see what happens in future.
     
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    Last edited: May 18, 2009
  9. Super Falcon

    Super Falcon ELITE MEMBER

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    no there is no stealth tech pakistan have neither facility to built them
     
  10. Arsalan

    Arsalan PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    it will never be indegenious, we will be having foreign assistance just like we hade in JF17, AlKhalid and many other projects and now we are making them on our own. 15 years back who would have thought that PAC a small facility meant for maintainance of fighter jets would be producing one of the finest jets of its class!
    when there is a will there is a way!
    so when paksiatn will opt for a 5th generation we surely will develop its manufacturing facility by helph and guaidance of our friends and may well be producing those planes at home!
    Inshallah

    regards!