Pakistan May Speed AF Procurements Despite Economy

[Salman Ahmad]

The increase in defense spending under Pakistan’s new defense budget is largely consumed by wages and the cost of anti-insurgency operations, analysts say, providing little real increase for the military

so its quite hard for AF to procure any new jets or keep itself on track for their 2025 AFDP

The defense budget does not usually include procurement. It mainly consists of wages and operational costs with increases fueled by ongoing counterinsurgency efforts

 

[shanixee]

What exactly is 'game maker'?

It will not give a walkover to IAF..

 

[Zarvan]

ISLAMABAD — Despite its crippling economic situation, Pakistan may be forced to fund its Air Force’s most important procurement programs on an emergency basis, or at least ensure sufficient finances for their regular progress.

Salma Malik, assistant professor in the Department of Defence & Strategic Studies, at Quaid-i-Azam University, Islamabad, said the “linkage between economic progress, energy sufficiency and security as well as physical security” has never before been so deeply felt in Pakistan.

This is highlighted by the predicament facing the Air Force, which has not received any finances for its modernization efforts since 2007 under the Armed Forces Development Plan 2025 (AFDP2025).

Also, it has received only a portion of its allocated share of the general defense budget under the recently ousted Pakistan People’s Party government.

In addition to the financial woes, Malik highlights the “qualitative” and “quantitative edge” of the India Air Force developed through “upgrades or procurements.”

Though not dismissing the myriad problems facing the Indians, she particularly highlighted the potential purchase of the French Rafale as the “most concerning for Pakistan.”

However, though she acknowledged that Air Force equipment is very expensive, the length of time between ordering a weapon such as a fighter aircraft and having it enter front-line service, dictates a “sense of urgency.”

Malik says this was most likely impressed upon Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, by the head of the Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, during a June 13 meeting, and therefore “some allocation might happen straightaway.”

This emergency funding, Malik believes, could be injected into programs formulated in response to Indian developments, like the AFDP2025, to get them back on track and funded regularly.

If this does come about then the main focus, according to analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, will be the building of more JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft, “and inducting them into service fast to replace old Mirages and F-7 Fishbeds.”

He notes that pre-2007 programs have given the Air Force some breathing space.

“The air defense system has been upgraded with new radars and [command and control nodes, refuelers are in service, AEW&C are inducted, [beyond visual range] capability is acquired, Crotale SAM replacement is inducted.”

However, in the medium to long term, there are still concerns as the planned number of JF-17s has been slashed from 275 or 250 down to 150, which will not replace the current obsolete Mirages and F-7s on a one-for-one basis.

The J-10B/FC-20 program will also need to start progressing, and there is still a need for long-range SAMs, plus more Il-76 transport aircraft.

The FC-20 was supposed to enter service in the middle of the decade to form a high tech “spear tip” for Pakistani air power, but there appears to have been no progress with procurement.

Economic revival will dictate most action.

Among other economic woes, Pakistan is gripped by a crippling circular debt problem where the government and independent power producers owe each other huge amounts of money, hampering electricity generation to kick-start the economy.

The new government pledged to end this situation within 60 days of coming to power.

Analyst and former Army officer Ikram Sehgal is optimistic this will happen now that the previous government has been ousted from power.

“I have confidence that the economy will be turned around,” he said.

“The Pakistan economy is the most resilient in the world. If the [government of the PPP] could not bring it to its knees, then nothing can. It’s a question of management.”


Pakistan May Speed AF Procurements Despite Economy | Defense News | defensenews.com

Pakistan can only make these procurements with Saudi help if we can get money from Saudi Arabia and other middle eastern countries we can get 200 JF-17 and 100 J-10 B planes and I think nawaz would try to get it because IMF is suicide and we need money to turn around our economy and fulfil our defence needs

 

[Slayer786]

Analyst and former Army officer Ikram Sehgal is optimistic this will happen now that the previous government has been ousted from power.

“I have confidence that the economy will be turned around,” he said.

“The Pakistan economy is the most resilient in the world. If the [government of the PPP] could not bring it to its knees, then nothing can. It’s a question of management.”


Pakistan May Speed AF Procurements Despite Economy | Defense News | defensenews.com[/QUOTE]

I dont know if we should feel sad or laugh at his statement.

 

[Jungibaaz]

I dont know if we should feel sad or laugh at his statement.

We should be crying.

How long can we go on saying, 'we've lasted this long', 'we are resilient'...?
Everything has a limit and it seems that we ourselves are out to test our limits instead of fixing up.

 

[senkakudefender]

via nabil-
WMD-7 has performed better than expected in all weather, foggy, day night conditions in China and Pakistan. It has replaced Chinese legacy pods and is now the standard targeting pod in PLAAF service. In PAF, it falls between the SNIPER, ATLIS, slightly inferior than former, much enhanced than latter. Should be on par with Litenning 2 at least.
requires One hardpoint for now, should be on chin pylon from second blk onwards...

klj-7 currently has 550 watt output power and is powerful enough, but plans are in place for locally produced radar to have 600 watt (yes folks, 600) watt which will give it as much power as in APG-68 v9 ! but its radar antenna size will remain same. ISAR will be introduced, other modes will remain same but range will be increased. Overall, i expect it to be as capable as V9 in general capability but less in range. MTBF is around 300 hours. AESA is being worked out in China and is going through final trials. Blk 3 will have AESA but it will be tested on a prototype in China and then in Pakistan......

The more powerful transmitter, more options available such as more range, functions, processing speed, cooling, etc, although range greatly counts on antenna size too...Also, ESA antenna can be enabled on current klj-7 too !

How much do you want from a light fighter? Its radar can guide four, not two sd-10s simultaneously, search range is 150 kms, MTBF 230 hours, 30 modes of functions, this all gives it a good cost to performance ratio, is being improved and built in house, better than the rest of our radar inventory except the APG 68 V9 but than V9 is better than most pulse dopplers in the world anyway

----
the 5-6 kw is the peak power my friend and this is not in use usually as the aircraft engine can only give a certain amount of power. APG-68v9 has a usual power of 500- 600 watts at best with current f-16 configuration, same as the KLJ-7 with current jf-17 configuration, both radars have a reserve power capacity but this does not mean they are always operated at peak power output, no radar can as per my info. Hence they both have similar ranges and working modes. At the moment, the maximum output power of KLJ-7 as per my info is somewhere around 4-5kw, similar to v9. There are reasons why Italian radar was rejected, first, it had no multi target tracking capability, a small nominal power output of just 400 watts as compared to 600 watt asked by PAF and incompatibility to fire its main weapon, the sd-10 which italians promised to rectify. They improved the radar repeatedly but it still suffered with anomalies and hence got rejected

JFT radar has publicized detection range of 105 km against 5m2 target and Su-30 even if, has RCS of 10m2, will be detected at around 200-210 kms!! I bet BARS cannot detect a 3m2 target even at 150 kms and JFT is much less than 3m2 so MKI will have a hard time detecting the JFT at advertised range. Reality is, it will most likely be the other way around. yes the JFT will see the MKI first!

----
a-5 retired, next in line are early mirages (non rose models), f-7s (only p, not pg), this should be completed as new batches of jft are inducted, within next 5 -7 years at best. Grifo-S is not exactly same as old Grifo-S 7 and I give u the reason why. After fiar presented s-7 to paf, it seem impressive as it had high power and excellent anti jamming, decent range, robust architecture but it lacked in multiple engagements and track range, it also had inherited flaw of unable to communicate with indigenous, chinese weapons. What was presented by fiar as the Grifo-2000/16 was any day, a better option as it had more range, better features. this was discussed with fiar and they came up with and unified version having different antenna, range, processors, features in a customized variant known today as Grifo-S, this can also be observed in the brochure. It was defeated by a more capable radar in all dimensions that is known as klj-7......

---



F-7= Grifo-7=200-250 watt

f-16 blk 15= 300-350 watt

Rose Mirage= Grifo M3= 400-450 watt

Grifo-S (JFT earlier) =500-560 watt

http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/68207-jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-4-a-74.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/94948-radar-ranges-different-fighters-3.html#post1900693

Pakistan
Mirage III (Grifo-M)
F-7 Airguard (Grifo 7)
Peak Power
P2801 100kW
Grifo Radar series



The range for the present Chinese radar is very likely to be more than 100 kms; considering that the PAF chief was comparing with PAF F-16s. The PAF F-16s underwent OCU which increased their range and made it close to MLU (see this)

"The Pakistan Air Force currently has the Block 15 F-16A/B model in operation, which has an upgraded APG-66 radar that brings it close to the MLU (Mid-life Update) radar technology. The main advantage is the ability to use the AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles if they were ever to be released to the PAF. Furthermore, the radar is capable of sorting out tight formations of aircraft and has a 15%-20% range increase over previous models. All the earlier F-16s were brought up to OCU standards and have received the Falcon UP structural modification package."

Consider this bit of information, and also that the APG-66 later modification values are against 1m^2 targets which will be further increased against a significantly greater RCS for the MKI.

Now consider statements made by the PAF Chief about the KLJ-7: is *much better* than their APGs (and these are the upgraded OCU APGs).

Secondly if you visit SOC's old post on FC-1 and see the exchange of comments, one poster pointed out that KLJ-7 beat the Grifo- S and PAF did not lowered their requirements (this includes a link that PAF did not lower it's requirement, and on that is by none other than Richard Fischer ). SOC in fact commented that it is a very potent radar looking at some mentioned features.

Clearly, the KLJ-7 was chosen over this "very potent radar" and clearly the PAF Chief mentions that the KLJ-7 is "much better" than the present APGs.


One would also want to ask what is the detection range by JET modulation when intakes are hidden and treated with RAM. Why does one poster think it is more important and potent than detection by using returns from the airframe when clearly returns from airframe of a non-stealthy aircraft will be in abundance.

Another assertion made is that the MKI has phased array and JF-17 has Pulse doppler and MKI can avoid JF-17 lock by using doppler notch where as MKI will have no problems with locking on as it's radar is not PD.

This is what is common knowledge at various forums:
1)Doppler notch has been known since time ancient and tactics against Doppler notch were known by USAF even back in Vietnam Era.
2) According to one of the viper pilots at the F-16 forum, they have way more modes on their radars and just by switching to different mode of detection and maneuvering your aircraft so that there is no 90 degrees between both aircrafts this dopler notch could be taken care of.
3)Another aviator said "no modern AI radar is worth it's salt if it can't resist doppler notch"

All of the above should be on F-16 forums if you search "doppler notch"

Grande Strategy


I dont give a crap if members dont agree with these values --- they can have mutual brain masturbation sessions on other fora

This is a thread regarding paf and its not about iaf--- such further posts will be regarded as offtopic trolling and will be rewarded with a pink saree

THe frontal RCS of SU-30MKI is 10m2 (old estimate) while that of F-16 is 1.2m2. There have been recent measure taken to reduce the massive RCS of Su-30MKI by the use of RAM coating etc. Current RCS is seem to be reduced to 3m2 without any load.

BTW Here's Radar detection table :

N-011M BARS

140km detection range for 5m2 target. Hence:
For 8.5m2, BARS detection range is 160km
For 3m2, BARS detection range is 123km
For 1.5m2, BARS detection range is 104km
For 1m2, BARS detection range is 94km

KLJ-7

KLJ-7 has a 75km detection range for 3m2 Target. Hence:
For 20m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 121km
For 15m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 112km
For 12.5m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 107km
For 10m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 101km
For 8.5m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 97km
For 5m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 85km
For 1m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 57km
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...plane-no-1-indian-subcontinent-bvr-arena.html
JF-17's TWR isn't very high, and adding RAM would mean increasing the weight. So we can expect little or no RAM on JF-17. Also, JF-17 isn't very planform in construction but has DSI and is a smaller aircraft. So lets consider a favorable assumption that the RCS of a clean JF-17 is as low as 2.5m2

 

[araz]

there should also be a factor of trust and using chineese engine will create ease in having upgradation and overhaul facality at home…

In business there should be competition and if the red bear wants its goodies to sell in Pakistan it will have to offer enough incentives for the PAF to take the plunge. Idont deny the utility of a chinese but should we go for it if we have anassured supply line plus in house overhauling and minor assembly setup. This in my view is the real issue at hand. My contention is that the russians would not want to let go of the business they have from PAF and a direct offer to PAF would go a long way inalleviating the fear of sanctions.
Araz

 

[alimobin memon]

THe frontal RCS of SU-30MKI is 10m2 (old estimate) while that of F-16 is 1.2m2. There have been recent measure taken to reduce the massive RCS of Su-30MKI by the use of RAM coating etc. Current RCS is seem to be reduced to 3m2 without any load.

BTW Here's Radar detection table :

N-011M BARS

140km detection range for 5m2 target. Hence:
For 8.5m2, BARS detection range is 160km
For 3m2, BARS detection range is 123km
For 1.5m2, BARS detection range is 104km
For 1m2, BARS detection range is 94km

KLJ-7

KLJ-7 has a 75km detection range for 3m2 Target. Hence:
For 20m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 121km
For 15m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 112km
For 12.5m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 107km
For 10m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 101km
For 8.5m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 97km
For 5m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 85km
For 1m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 57km

JF-17's TWR isn't very high, and adding RAM would mean increasing the weight. So we can expect little or no RAM on JF-17. Also, JF-17 isn't very planform in construction but has DSI and is a smaller aircraft. So lets consider a favorable assumption that the RCS of a clean JF-17 is as low as 2.5m2

How are you think tank ? Have you had coffee or something That Wakes ur mind ?

klj 7 range for 5m^2 is now 120km and before when it was not updated it was 105 km hence The 10m^2 target is purely more than 125 km and ur so called bar radar has no more than 125km for 5m^2 Dont make ur own fantasy based assumptions! 3.5m^2 target is "Greater" than 75 not 75.

ur bar cant detect jf17 even if u say is 2.5m^2 bar cant detect it beyond 110 km !

 

[senkakudefender]

How are you think tank ? Have you had coffee or something That Wakes ur mind ?

klj 7 range for 5m^2 is now 120km and before when it was not updated it was 105 km hence The 10m^2 target is purely more than 125 km and ur so called bar radar has no more than 125km for 5m^2 Dont make ur own fantasy based assumptions! 3.5m^2 target is "Greater" than 75 not 75.

ur bar cant detect jf17 even if u say is 2.5m^2 bar cant detect it beyond 110 km !

Ajeeb admi hai! Figures deta hoon tabh bhi rota hain! When an R 77 humps your JF 17's hind tab samjhega kya? JF-17 is equipped with KLJ-7 airborne pulse Doppler radar with maximum detection range of 130 km ( Again BLK 2)

Here's BARS N1011M OR MK2

As you can see N011M MK-2 can pick up a 1m^2 target at 117.5nm...you must learn to
believe in tech of today buddy or 220 KM as per Aus Air Power. Invoking the Radar-Range-RCS equation the calculated range for 5m2 target is 85km which is far less than comments made.

Your KLJ 10 (blk 2 JF 17) radar was the inferior PESA Chinese were trying for J10B (now delayed) and still lacks in range!

 

[Gentelman]

Ajeeb admi hai! Figures deta hoon tabh bhi rota hain! When an R 77 humps your JF 17's hind tab samjhega kya? JF-17 is equipped with KLJ-7 airborne pulse Doppler radar with maximum detection range of 130 km.

Here's BARS N1011M OR MK2

As you can see N011M MK-2 can pick up a 1m^2 target at 117.5nm...you must learn to
believe in tech of today buddy or 220 KM as per Aus Air Power. Invoking the Radar-Range-RCS equation the calculated range for 5m2 target is 85km which is far less than comments made.

Your KLJ 10 (blk 2 JF 17) radar was the inferior PESA Chinese were trying for J10B (now delayed) and still lacks in range!

KLJ-10 is not ours soo stay low bud……
I hav nothing to do with SU-30 but KLJ-7 is upgraded for block 2 with higher frequencies and extended range and lesser weight while the use of composites will also decrease the weight and RCS of plane with wellmanaged use of avionics and less weight and drag its RCS will be lowered with high speed upto mach 2.0 atleast and its capacity to carry weight would increase by 0.5 tons+ …
It is still not compareable to SU-30 as they are of different roles but in air to air combat the chances are 50-50 if the altitude is neglected……

 

[senkakudefender]

KLJ-10 is not ours soo stay low bud……
I hav nothing to do with SU-30 but KLJ-7 is upgraded for block 2 with higher frequencies and extended range and lesser weight while the use of composites will also decrease the weight and RCS of plane with wellmanaged use of avionics and less weight and drag its RCS will be lowered with high speed upto mach 2.0 atleast and its capacity to carry weight would increase by 0.5 tons+ …
It is still not compareable to SU-30 as they are of different roles but in air to air combat the chances are 50-50 if the altitude is neglected……

Bhaisaab yeh AusAirPower ki vaani hai, mera nahi! JF 17 only brownie point is low cost and great attrition aircraft meaning for making 1 su 30 mki = 10 jf 17. Think of it as Tiger 2 vs Sherman tank.

1. "high speed upto mach 2.0 atleast"
DSI alone will limit it a mach 1.6 like j20,f 35, j31

2. "wellmanaged use of avionics and less weight"
TWR wing loading still not satisfactory. Thus agility and stability affected like Mig 29 which bleeds energy like hell. Avionics not upto world standard.

3."50-50 if the altitude is neglected"
In close combat Gun 2 Gun Su 30MKI Win Probability.
In BVR Su 30MKI at long range due to missiles and radar range. Using RAM coatings you'll see su 30 MKI as 3ms^2 target that is JF 17 catches it as per radar coverage eqn at 75 km and for blk 2 radar ( doubtful if ever completed ) at 85 km. Su 30MKI sees JF 17 2.5ms^2 at 150km.

In short JF 17 is going to act as bogey till nukes attack us or UN intervenes.

 

[Su-11]

Radar ranges are sketchy.

Baseline BARS radar.. I repeat.. BASELINE!!! has a range of 140km for 5m2. This radar has an peak power of 4000 to 5000 watts and an Average power output of 1200 watts. The AVERAGE power output that the most advanced variant of BARS can handle is 5000watts. No one knows the range of this 5000 watts radar. NO one knows!! It is a closely guarded secret.
IAF refused to reveal some variant of BARS during Red Flag exercises, and the exercise with the EF Typhoons goes to show the surprises in store.

KLJ-7 radar, Janes reports that it's range is 75km for 3m2 target(85km for 5m2 target). There was a brochure from Sengupta claiming the range is 105km for 5m2 target, the same range as a F-16 Radar. I dont believe that some small chinese radar for light weigth fighter has the same range as an AN/APG-68V9 of a medium weight F-16. Then there is a news report claiming some new radar for the JF-17 block 2 haveing a range of 130km for a "fighter target" still in development. No idea what RCS the chinese take for a fighter target. Anyway its still in development.

That's all the upto date info regarding radars.

Over and out.

 

[Gessler]

Radar ranges are sketchy.

Baseline BARS radar.. I repeat.. BASELINE!!! has a range of 140km for 5m2. This radar has an peak power of 4000 to 5000 watts and an Average power output of 1200 watts. The AVERAGE power output that the most advanced variant of BARS can handle is 5000watts. No one knows the range of this 5000 watts radar. NO one knows!! It is a closely guarded secret and IAF refused to reveal it even during Red Flag exercises, and the exercise with the EF Typhoons.

KLJ-7 radar, Janes reports that it's range is 75km for 3m2 target(85km for 5m2 target). There was a brochure from Sengupta claiming the range is 105km for 5m2 target, the same range as a F-16 Radar. I dont believe that some small chinese radar for light weigth fighter has the same range as an AN/APG-68V9 of a medium weight F-16. Then there is a news report claiming some new radar for the JF-17 block 2 haveing a range of 130km for a "fighter target" still in development. No idea what RCS the chinese take for a fighter target. Anyway its still in development.

That's all the upto date info regarding radars.

Over and out.

BARS was only used in "Training mode" in those air combat exercises. In this mode, the power output, detection range, scan rate and jamming burnthrough is reduced by as much
as 40%, thus no foreign pilot or plane have fought with MKI knowing it's true capability.

BARS Mk-2 (the mainstay for present day MKIs) may have been able to pump as much as 6,000 watts of radar burnthrough into the side lobes/main lobe of enemy radars. This output
is so vast that even F-16 Block-52+ radar can be overpowered.

When you jam an enemy radar, that radar's effectiveness and capability will be terribly reduced.

If 2-3 MKIs concentrate their jamming burnthrough on a single enemy radar emission (say, an AWACS), the effect may even be enough to significantly reduce the radar's effectiveness.

Another aspect to be probed is that unlike other MMRs onboard jet fighters of today, the N011M is capable of DUAL-BAND scanning/jamming. Yes, it has 2 different arrays - One X-band and one L-band.

The L-band array is capable of detecting smaller RCS targets at farther ranges (although it's not very accurate), once the L-band has located the approximate location of a low-RCS target, the X-band array can be made to increase it's scan rate in that particular sector (using more power if needed) after adjusting azimuth/elevation degrees, a positive lock can be acquired to launch a radar-guided AAM.

This is one capability of BARS that many people ignore. The detection ranges of BARS are actually much higher than advertised popularly on the net because of this reason. The Carlo Kopp chart,
however, isn't that accurate.

 

[Su-11]

6000 watts average power is a bit high.. Even Irbis E on Su-35 has only 5000 watts of average power.

Most likely IAF has the 2500-3500 watts average power output BARS radar variant. For 5000 watts you need mroe powerful engines like the Su-35S. MKI doesnt have that.





LOL.. what is striking me is that here we are talking about radar power in hundreds and thousands of watts, and we have a fighter in this day and age flying with an 80 watts radar.

 

[Gessler]

6000 watts average power is a bit high.. Even Irbis E on Su-35 has only 5000 watts of average power.

Most likely IAF has the 2500-3500 watts average power output BARS radar variant. For 5000 watts you need mroe powerful engines like the Su-35S. MKI doesnt have that.

I meant the peak power, not average power.

Average power is what you use when in normal flying. When trying to jam an enemy radar,
you up your power level to have maximum chances of success. Because you can't give
too many tries as a single jamming process drains a lot of power.