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Pakistan’s Fourth Nuclear Reactor Has India Worried

Indian Reactors are not proven safe yet, and not in use or on the market. I am back to tell you!
What I wanted to tell you is that Pakistan has the know how of reactor building and management for along time.
Sir, this shows you don't know about the latest 700 MWe class of indigenous phwr reactors under construction in india, in the latest report, the NPCIL found it to be more safe than the russian VVER-1000 we are importing from russia..
So, I would rather you delve into serious literature dealing with india PHWR designs, that will clear your doubts
peace
 
Sir, if you see indian history, it too was under sanctions from 1974-2005, so there is no question of foreign assistance during this period, this was the sole reason which forced indian scientists and engineer to harness thorium based FBR, AND in fact india has emerged as a leader in fast breeder technology, I would rather you read about FBRs from international journals and then you will come to know, what india is upto in this field

Agreed but india energy needs are almost 20 times larger than Pakistan. India investment in Nuclear power reactor technology is justified on economic grounds. However Pakistan Total energy demand is 21000 MW (WAPDA & KESC). R&D cost for local nuclear power reactors is not justified keeping in view the size of National grid.

Then we have a robust series of indigenous PWRS ranging from 220 to 700MWe...and NPCIL can even export these to countries like gulf, africa, and hopefully pakistan
To be very frank, no chance of export of nuclear power reactors from india in coming one or two decades.
Indian power reactors are not in a position to compete with competitors from france, USSR, South korea and USA like (AREVA, westinghouse etc etc).
 
Sir, this shows you don't know about the latest 700 MWe class of indigenous phwr reactors under construction in india, in the latest report, the NPCIL found it to be more safe than the russian VVER-1000 we are importing from russia..
So, I would rather you delve into serious literature dealing with india PHWR designs, that will clear your doubts
peace
Despite been a safe design, the PHWR design (Canadian or Indian) is not at all a popular product among clients. Pakistan, UAE, Bangladesh, Egypt, south korea, England, France, Belgium, USA, south africa and all other countries where new nuclear power plants are under construction, no one has shown interest in PHWR design.
 
Agreed but india energy needs are almost 20 times larger than Pakistan. India investment in Nuclear power reactor technology is justified on economic grounds. However Pakistan Total energy demand is 21000 MW (WAPDA & KESC). R&D cost for local nuclear power reactors is not justified keeping in view the size of National grid.

The Energy consumption of France is around 450,900k MW per annum.
And for Pakistan Its around 68,550K MW per Annum.

France has 75+% of its power met by Nuclear reactors... although it has some reserves of Coal.

Pakistan doesn't have coal reserves neither can it afford extensive construction of large hydroelectric plants.
We plan keeping things of future in Mind... not present requirements... specially in the case of Nuclear power.
If Pakistan expects it future requirements to remain the same 40 watt per person then yes lack of R&D cost is definitely Justified.
 
Agreed but india energy needs are almost 20 times larger than Pakistan. India investment in Nuclear power reactor technology is justified on economic grounds. However Pakistan Total energy demand is 21000 MW (WAPDA & KESC). R&D cost for local nuclear power reactors is not justified keeping in view the size of National grid.


To be very frank, no chance of export of nuclear power reactors from india in coming one or two decades.
Indian power reactors are not in a position to compete with competitors from france, USSR, South korea and USA like (AREVA, westinghouse etc etc).
sir,quite frankly,do you happen to read literature dealing with reactor engineering,because as a control engineer i do,
secondly,the only problem which india MIGHT face in exporting the pressurized water reactors and PHWRs is that of "exporting fuel assemblies",since india is low on uranium-235,we cant export it to other countries,we would have to manufacture the assemblies in that respective countries itself,indian reactors are atleast as sophiticated as the russian(i suggest you to read literature),though AREVA holds some cutting edge reactor design,i agree,but in cost our reactors can be a great HIT in markets of asia,gulf africa etc
but in case of thorium based FBR,this is NOT applicable,because india has about 1/3 of total thorium reserves of this world,
and,sir,INDIA is much ahead of european countries AND china in designing and comissioning FAST BREEDER REACTORS(this is quite evident from the fact that,recently india completed the construction of world's largest FBR,550MWe)
i would seriously recommend you to do literature in reactor engineering

Despite been a safe design, the PHWR design (Canadian or Indian) is not at all a popular product among clients. Pakistan, UAE, Bangladesh, Egypt, south korea, England, France, Belgium, USA, south africa and all other countries where new nuclear power plants are under construction, no one has shown interest in PHWR design.
sir whole world will switch over to fbr one day
 
surely u guys know about indian 3 stage nuke cycle. i think we need to make a different thread to discuss it thoroughly.

natural uranium -> pressurised heavy water reactors -> plutonium-239 7 under cons
mixed oxide (MOX) fuel made from plutonium-239 -> Fast breeder reactors (FBRs) -> plutonium 239 uranium 233 3-4 uc
thorium-232-uranium-233 fuelled -> AHWR -> uranium starting cons in 2014

this is a genius cycle. first 2 stages have been mastered in 20 yrs and not more than 10 indegeneous reactors are being built. the third stage will be ready by 2018 and then we have enough thorium for nxt 550 yrs according to npcil. 100s of these nuclear reactors will be built and also improved with time.
 
secondly,the only problem which india MIGHT face in exporting the pressurized water reactors and PHWRs is that of "exporting fuel assemblies",since india is low on uranium-235,we cant export it to other countries
I repeat what i said earlier, no possibility that india will get any export order for its nuclear power reactor. Indian power reactors are in no position to compete with the the already proven design and products.

atleast as sophiticated as the russian(i suggest you to read literature),though AREVA holds some cutting edge reactor design,i agree,but in cost our reactors can be a great HIT in markets of asia,gulf africa etc
You must be kidding dude. (Indian nuclear power reactors a head of russia), hahahah.

but in case of thorium based FBR,this is NOT applicable,because india has about 1/3 of total thorium reserves of this world
Agreed but the rest of the world is not interested in thorium based reactors.

and,sir,INDIA is much ahead of european countries AND china in designing and comissioning FAST BREEDER REACTORS(this is quite evident from the fact that,recently india completed the construction of world's largest FBR,550MWe)

The Fast breeder Reactor technology has so much flaws and disadvantages associated with it that all developed countries have thrown it in dust bin. Only a handle full number of fast breeder reactors are operating all around the world and those also for research purpose only.
No other country in the world is actively doing R&D on fast breeder reactors except Indian. For the rest of the world its highly unreliable design with numerous problems and safety issues and hazards associated with it.

FBR has never in the past and never in the future will be a viable product.
sir whole world will switch over to fbr one day
No chance, not even 1%. Be sure about it.
The world has dozen more much reliable, safer and cheaper alternatives than FBRs for energy.
 
I repeat what i said earlier, no possibility that india will get any export order for its nuclear power reactor. Indian power reactors are in no position to compete with the the already proven design and products.


You must be kidding dude. (Indian nuclear power reactors a head of russia), hahahah.


Agreed but the rest of the world is not interested in thorium based reactors.



The Fast breeder Reactor technology has so much flaws and disadvantages associated with it that all developed countries have thrown it in dust bin. Only a handle full number of fast breeder reactors are operating all around the world and those also for research purpose only.
No other country in the world is actively doing R&D on fast breeder reactors except Indian. For the rest of the world its highly unreliable design with numerous problems and safety issues and hazards associated with it.

FBR has never in the past and never in the future will be a viable product.

No chance, not even 1%. Be sure about it.
The world has dozen more much reliable, safer and cheaper alternatives than FBRs for energy.
This shows you don't know a single thing about reactor engineering
I still, ask you, do you happen to read engineering literature regarding nuclear reactors? AND, I WOULD SERIOUSLY LIKE YOU TO BRING OUT DISADVANTAGES OF FBR, PLEASE,
BECAUSE IN MY OPINION, YOU don't have adequate knowledge to comment on this subject...
 
bro still there is load shading :fie:in Pakistan we should use these bombs for achar really
 
bro still there is load shading :fie:in Pakistan we should use these bombs for achar really
Bro, I'm all for peaceful uses of nuclear energy...I am here to discuss the technical aspects of reactor design etc, hope I could find people with similar interests as of mine...
Though, there are people here, who happen to know nothing about reactor designs etc, yet criticise a particular design
 
This shows you don't know a single thing about reactor engineering
I still, ask you, do you happen to read engineering literature regarding nuclear reactors? AND, I WOULD SERIOUSLY LIKE YOU TO BRING OUT DISADVANTAGES OF FBR, PLEASE,
BECAUSE IN MY OPINION, YOU don't have adequate knowledge to comment on this subject...
Don' t try to act as if u are the nuclear genius.
And don't try to teach me the reactor and nuclear engineering basics. I owe a masters degree in Nuclear engineering. I stand by what i have written.
Its better if you first go and study the technical flaws and disadvantages associated with Fast breeder reactors.

Indian 1st FBR is a classic example if you wanna do some study. Just go through the endless technical problems indian 1st FBR has seen through out its life.

Though, there are people here, who happen to know nothing about reactor designs etc, yet criticise a particular design
And yet there are people who thinks that the world will fall in love blindly with FBR design just because indians are doing so.
 
Don' t try to act as if u are the nuclear genius.
And don't try to teach me the reactor and nuclear engineering basics. I owe a masters degree in Nuclear engineering. I stand by what i have written.
Its better if you first go and study the technical flaws and disadvantages associated with Fast breeder reactors.

Indian 1st FBR is a classic example if you wanna do some study. Just go through the endless technical problems indian 1st FBR has seen through out its life.


And yet there are people who thinks that the world will fall in love blindly with FBR design just because indians are doing so.
Sir, with due respect, I would be glad if you can bring out credible "flaws" in FBR...please, I would like to know your logic...and control engineers do deal with nuclear reactors...:)
Btw, in still waiting for your reply, plzzzz reply with solid facts..
Thanks in advance...:)
 
Sir, with due respect, I would be glad if you can bring out credible "flaws" in FBR...please, I would like to know your logic...and control engineers do deal with nuclear reactors...:)
Btw, in still waiting for your reply, plzzzz reply with solid facts..
Thanks in advance...:)
Dear dont expect me to be your reactor engineering tutor. Its better if you do some study yourself.
As i said in my previous post, please read about indias FBR, its a classic example for any one who is in love with FBR design. If you dont find material online i promise i will send you a pdf file on your personal email. But please let us not test other people patience on this thread with our FBR "For -Against Debate."
And please don't consider my comments against FBR design as against india FBR reactor.
 
Dear dont expect me to be your reactor engineering tutor. Its better if you do some study yourself.
As i said in my previous post, please read about indias FBR, its a classic example for any one who is in love with FBR design. If you dont find material online i promise i will send you a pdf file on your personal email. But please let us not test other people patience on this thread with our FBR "For -Against Debate."
And please don't consider my comments against FBR design as against india FBR reactor.
sir,with due respect,since you have failed to provide me with credible links,or even technical arguments stating the "flaws" or "inferiority of FBR vis-a-vis PWR",it is my turn to shed some light and take away your ignorance?
so here I begin
1) A breeder reactor is designed to create more fissile material (nuclear fuel) than it consumes. Depending on the Breeding Ratio of a reactor, it can produce new fuel at a greater or lesser rate. The Breeding Ratio represents the number of new fissile atoms created for each fission event. The theoretical upper limit for the Breeding Ratio is 1.8, while most breeder reactors are designed to produce just about as much fissile material as they consume.
The greatest advantage of FBR is after an initial loading of enriched U or Pu, it can thereafter be powered just by periodic loadings of unenriched (natural) uranium or thorium. Thorium is about four times more abundant in the Earth’s crust than uranium, poses very little weaponization risk, and produces nuclear waste which decreases in intensity to background levels much quicker than the waste from a conventional plant.
Breeder reactors can produce bomb-ready nuclear fuel, such as plutonium. This problem is addressed by a stage in nuclear preprocessing where other elements such as curium and neptunium are added in tiny quantities to the plutonium. This form of processing has no effect on the use of plutonium as a reactor fuel, but makes it extremely difficult to use the material to create an atomic bomb, even if utilizing a very sophisticated design.

2)sir,all conventional reactors have a burn up of about .5-.8(which means they produce about 50-80% of fissile material they consume),though the current trend is shifting towards manufacturing PWRs with very high burnups,they can never achieve the breeding ratios of a fast breeder reactor,infact in america,thanks to high burups of their reactor design,they are able to produce 1/3 of their total nuclear energy based on bred fissile material,so,in a way,FBR helps increase the productivity,it breeds enough fissile material for other reactors
indian has successfully mastered the 1st stage of breeder reactor(FAST breeder reactors) where initially a Pu loading is given in the core and the fuel cycles consists of subsequent loading of natural uranium,our 2nd stage is to design THERMAL fast breeder which sustains on only the subsequent fuel cycles of "thorium"(india's first experiemtal 45MWe FBR went critical in october 1985)

3)and FBR has a very distinct advantage in the sense that it also has the ability to process the radiotoxic wastes depending on the design of the reactor,In principle, breeder fuel cycles can recycle and consume all actinides, leaving only fission products. So, after several hundred years, the waste's radioactivity drops to the low level of the long-lived fission products. If the fuel reprocessing process used for the fuel cycle leaves actinides in its final waste stream, this advantage is reduced.(i mean subjected to the of presence of "breeding blanket" around the main fuel assembly)

4)now since you are a nuclear engineer,i assume your familiarity with the dwindling stock of uranium,infact as a matter of fact the thorium reserves are many times higher than those of uranium,it QUITE logical,that the whole world will have to look towards thorium based energy in near future
here are a few projects goin on in many countries
1)phenix and superphenix constructed by france(infact 1200MW SP is the world's largest FBR till now)
2)KNK-II of germany
3)indian FBR and later TFBR
4)british dounrey FBR
5)soviet BN-350 and BN-600

disadvantages-
here the coolant is liquid sodium,which means it cant be effectively used for naval propulsion,because a breach in the core would result in fire,and would spiral out of control,though FBRs,or TFBRs can be EFFECTIVELY USED in ground based platforms
sir,quite frankly,there aint any disadvantages of FBR,except itz cost,though that too would reduce as the newer technologies come in,AND THE SHEER ADVANTAGES OF A FBR HEAVILY OUTWEIGH ITZ cost-based "DISADVANTAGES"
 
@ranasikander,we are here for discussions,right,now i expect you to provide me strong technical arguments against the FBR technology...:-)
on a lighter NOTE, FBR is NOT the RBMK-1000,lol,it doesnt have unstabilities like the RBMK-1000 class,
 

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