Musharraf: a Soldier or a Midas

[Bull]

do you think a person hired as security guard to protect your house ( as many people in islamabad have guards etc ) or bank has the right to rule over the house or the bank...as if it was his baap ki jagir???? tell me?

But then if the house is in a mess the guard can step in right.

 

[Spring Onion]

Many of you who are in favour of unrestrained and continued milatary rule over pakistan....consider this;

do you think a person hired as security guard to protect your house ( as many people in islamabad have guards etc ) or bank has the right to rule over the house or the bank...as if it was his baap ki jagir???? tell me?

there is a big difference between a guard and army and a house and a country.

Its the weakness of Politiicans that had led to army rule and politicnas can never be trusted for security reasons in the present circumstance where they are willing to disclose alot in collaboration with our enemies.

seconldy if the political parties are so keen to revive democarcy thn why they always agree to sit with Millitary government.

Lets forget about MMA and call them Millitary team,

But u see in present government there are people from PPP and also from once PML(N)

 

[Bull]

there is a big difference between a guard and army and a house and a country.

Its the weakness of Politiicans that had led to army rule and politicnas can never be trusted for security reasons in the present circumstance where they are willing to disclose alot in collaboration with our enemies.

seconldy if the political parties are so keen to revive democarcy thn why they always agree to sit with Millitary government.

Lets forget about MMA and call them Millitary team,

But u see in present government there are people from PPP and also from once PML(N)

Politicians arent impoted from india or US,they are from among the pakistani society if they who are elcted by the society cannot be society what makes you believe you can trust the army.

Politicians are oppurtunisitic,they wont leave a chance to be in power and so they agree to sit along with military in power.

 

[Spring Onion]

Politicians arent impoted from india or US,they are from among the pakistani society if they who are elcted by the society cannot be society what makes you believe you can trust the army.

Politicians are oppurtunisitic,they wont leave a chance to be in power and so they agree to sit along with military in power.

Bull im saying the mess has been created by politicians they had never been united and always used army to ditch the other party.

the peopel have given them chances time and again but they failed to serve them.

Come to our country and ask a common person in the street (with acception to those who have affiliation with political parties for materilistic gains) he will tell you that we need better facilaities we damn care who is in the rule.

 

[Shahin-e-Iqbal]

I would take PAK ARMY as the Biggest Anemy .

OK THEN, LETS DO IT, ABOLISH THE ARMY AND MERGE PAKISTAN INTO INDIA I HOPE THAT WILL SATISFY YOU

 

[zpak]

Please if I may just ask:

Who do the anti military posters recommend take power after Musharraf? Nawaz Sharif? Benazir Bhutto? Or another member from the feudal/political elite? Please I would just want to know the answer to this question. And please dont give vague, general answers like: civilians.

Hey I'm all for a civilian government. But have we really had a democratic civilian government? The only truly civilian people to have ruled Pakistan were Jinnah and Liaquat Ali Khan. THe rest were feudal lords who subjugated the illiterate masses to vote for them.

 

[MastanKhan]

Lahori paa jee,

Nawaz should have left it open and should have had more confidence in the pakistanis living abroad. Pakistanis living abroad would have competed with the indians. Maybe we could not muster up 20 billion dollars like the indians, but we could have come close to 5 billion dollars.

You see, Nawaz never had the balls to be the P M in an extreme duress situation. This man maybe a good industrialist, but he has no gumption, no backbone, no guts to stand upto india.

The way Bill Clinton described Nawaz Sharif after Kargil, Bill portryed Nawaz as someone who was extremely apologetics and sorry for what had happened and promised it would never happen again. He was extremely sorry all the time. Would not let Bill complete a sentence and offer his apology. That is what Clinton stated in an interview on the tv after kargil.

Lahori, I do understand that you are against army rule, but please do look upto someone who has the intellect to talk to the americans, balls to confront indians and strength to fight crime.

The man Nawaz Sharif that the people are seeing now---is a very dangerous man----because he has been wounded and sounds very vengeful in his speeches. And the only thing he is interested is to get the position back and put Musharraf in jail.

I would say that this is one of the biggest blunders that Musharraf has committed-------let Nawaz live. As the great american writer stated----" IF YOU DETHRONE A KING, KILL HIM". This will come and haunt Musharraf .

The tragedy with pakistani millitary coup is that they art bloodless--------if the millitary wants to be the beast then at least show the animal in you. That is the reason the political process does not move forward because there is no cleansing process in the place.

 

[Bull]

Please if I may just ask:

Who do the anti military posters recommend take power after Musharraf? Nawaz Sharif? Benazir Bhutto? Or another member from the feudal/political elite? Please I would just want to know the answer to this question. And please dont give vague, general answers like: civilians.

Hey I'm all for a civilian government. But have we really had a democratic civilian government? The only truly civilian people to have ruled Pakistan were Jinnah and Liaquat Ali Khan. THe rest were feudal lords who subjugated the illiterate masses to vote for them.

Well Zpak,

Democracy is no magic drink,that it solves everything in a flash.Democracy eveloves as the society evolves.A democracy allows people to raise their voices.Intially as you sai you might have had two idiots in BB and NS ruling you.But then there would have been voices that started raising from diff parts of Pakistan,it might be muted at first but will garner strentgh with time and become strong.

These kind of freedoms would allow intelectuals to prosper and come out with innovation that would shape the nations future.

Zpak, in a country where elections dont work properly or are manipulated, how do you expect anybody to bring order?

 

[Bull]

the peopel have given them chances time and again but they failed to serve them..

Its not they,it we.that includes you and other all Pakistanis

Come to our country and ask a common person in the street (with acception to those who have affiliation with political parties for materilistic gains) he will tell you that we need better facilaities we damn care who is in the rule.

Thats the case everywhere.Be it Pakistan India US or Burma,people on the street will only complian against the top officials/govt.Thats not a pakistani phenomenon but a Global one.

 

[Skeptic786]

But then if the house is in a mess the guard can step in right.

Even if a house is in mess....guard has no right to step in......let use the analogy of bank where the principle applies as well since almost every bank branch has a guard with a gun in his hand...... if a bank is in a mess due to incompetent bank manager or bad clerical staff....you donot promote the guard to bank manager or clerical positions....you look for new staff be it bank manager or clerical staff.....NOT PROMOTE THE GUARD to bank manager or clerical staff position...merely because he has a gun in his hand.

The only excuse for guard stepping in to help....is if there was a fire in the house...or the house was on fire....as the situation maybe.....after putting out the fire the guard doesnot become the owner of the house or Lord of the Manor so to speak....but he has to remember his position and he returns to that position.

 

[Skeptic786]

there is a big difference between a guard and army and a house and a country.

Its the weakness of Politiicans that had led to army rule and politicnas can never be trusted for security reasons in the present circumstance where they are willing to disclose alot in collaboration with our enemies.

seconldy if the political parties are so keen to revive democarcy thn why they always agree to sit with Millitary government.

Lets forget about MMA and call them Millitary team,

But u see in present government there are people from PPP and also from once PML(N)

What is that difference???? guard with a gun hired to protect the house is no different from hiring an army to protect a country.


So you think there are no traitors in the army? Major General Iskandir Mirza used to start his day by first dashing to the american embassy to unload any information or pick up any instructions from his american master ( american ambassdor to pakistan ).... Milatary Man Ayub Khan had finance minster from america....by name of Shoaib ( in exactly the same mould as Shaukat Aziz )...later cia documents revealed him to be american agent...who had no loyality to Pakistan wotsoever.........on whose instructions and by whom was the entire milatary leadership of Pakistan killed in 1987 ( when general zia and all top generals except aslam beg were killed )???

I understand what you are saying that politicians can become traitors and act as collaborators with the enemy........nowadays Benazir is screaming to be let into power so she can do the american bidding more efficiently than even Musharaf..........but to counter such eventualities....we have to improve our intelligence capabilities.....that is the solution found by all countries of the world.....usa has 15 major intelligence agencies ( minor ones are in addition to this )......UK ( 1/3 of Pakistan population ) has atleast 10 ( though 2 are most famous MI5 and MI6 ). It is the presence of ISI, MI, Naval intelligence which keeps Pakistan Armed forces by and large loyal to Pakistan as oppose to any foreign master ( but we have to accept there would be traitors and spies even then in the Pak Army )

But the more the army stays in power....it becomes like an armed political party...its proffesionalism is eroded and is directly exposed to corruption as well as espionage activities of our enemies....just like the political parties.

As far as your statement as to why politicians collaborated with the army.....the answer is....it was to their personal benefit........in Pakistan personal interests matter more than principles or even national interests. That is a sad reality one has to come to terms with as a pakistani.

 

[zpak]

I understand the need for democracy to evolve Bull. No need to point that out.

However this evolution as you call it is deliberately stifled under our civilian governments. Actually lets not call them civilian. How about (Feudal/Tribal elite) governments. There's further freedom under military government than that of both NS and BB.

I hope you're not under the impression that the military is the only body in Pakistan manipulating the elections. Pakistan is still under the poisonous grip of feudal and tribal landlords. Who as I mentioned easily manipulate the illiterate population to keep them in power.

Even though democratic principles are important, the majority of Pakistanis are more worried about getting food on the table. Thats why you didn't see protests when NS was overthrown. As far as I could tell many actually breathed a sigh of relief.

 

[Bull]

Even though democratic principles are important, the majority of Pakistanis are more worried about getting food on the table. Thats why you didn't see protests when NS was overthrown. As far as I could tell many actually breathed a sigh of relief.

What were educated guys like you doing then?I can see a lot of eductaed well off Pakistanis who are bothered abt their country but nobody seems to be doing anything abt it.

Asim and Jana are from the press!!!Thats one of the three pillars of your country.

 

[Skeptic786]

Please if I may just ask:

Hey I'm all for a civilian government. But have we really had a democratic civilian government? The only truly civilian people to have ruled Pakistan were Jinnah and Liaquat Ali Khan. THe rest were feudal lords who subjugated the illiterate masses to vote for them.

bro,

do not say things like hey I'm all for a civilian government this statement is enuff for you to be labelled anti-state, anti milatary, anti musharaf etc....on many a forums run by pro musharaf elements.

Jinnah and Liaqat Ali Khan had about the same feudal lords in their governments as any civilian or milatary government since then. Then it was fathers....now its the sons, daughters, grandsons/daughters, inlaws etc.

As for who should take power from musharaf......there is no need for us to conjecture on this.....Allow free and fair elections and let the people of Pakistan chose.....whom ever they chose...should be allowed to rule--unharrassed by any Army Chief for the set time....till the next election when the people will contemplate their first decision and how they faired with the people they had put in office last time.

 

[Spring Onion]

What were educated guys like you doing then?I can see a lot of eductaed well off Pakistanis who are bothered abt their country but nobody seems to be doing anything abt it.

Asim and Jana are from the press!!!Thats one of the three pillars of your country.

dear me and Asim and such other people we love our country wew dont have any affiliation with political parties hence we dont have to and we dont support blindly the corrupt politicians.

as we dont have any wish to have any thing in return from so-called democratic parties for maligning our country.


As far educated people are concerned they dont have any trust in Political parties who were just and are using them for own rule.