Missing persons: ISI, MI counsel says RAW and Mossad involved

[53fd]

I know they say they caught many, but where are they now? No public trial, no confessions on the media (our media at least), no involvement of Interpol to chase suspects across in India, raise awareness.

Frankly we have done more to arrest Musharraf than we have done to arrest Indians working to support Baloch insurgents. For this complacency, this bad performance, doesn't someone high in the ISI deserve the proverbial jootay? Courts said the same thing, why are you decrying RAW and Mossad, banda pesh karo. There should be someone whom we can say THIS guy came from India and did this n this and he should testify he did it on orders from RAW.

Otherwise how can we trust the ISI? They could be deflecting blame when they were accused of kidnapping, they transfered the blame to RAW.

Again, you're mixing up a myriad of issues. The first issue: the supply of arms & explosives from Afghanistan is there for all to see. The second issue: most of the violence (kidnappings, target killings, terrorism) in Balochistan comes from some Baloch terrorists (in 2011, out of 697 acts of overall terrorism in Balochistan, over 510 were from Baloch terrorists). In the first issue, we see foreign involvement; in the second issue, it might not be the case. But the second issue is supported by issue one.

I'll repeat what I said again:

There are a lot of things that happen behind the scenes that aren't disclosed to the public, but they exist nevertheless.

Intelligence agencies make a lot of noise when they are on the "offensive", controlling media & popular perception (by regulating the news); & agencies like the ISI are quiet these days because they are on the "defensive", being attacked on many fronts, & have popular perception against them.

 

[Awesome]

Again, you're mixing up a myriad of issues. I'll repeat what I said again:

There are a lot of things that happen behind the scenes that aren't disclosed to the public, but they exist nevertheless.

How do you know what happens behind the scenes? For all we know squat happens or all the bad things happens. "Behind the scenes" is not a defence, show it to us in front of the scenes. ISI is on trial, it needs to defend itself with evidence or counter prove the evidence that has been built up against it.

Missing persons were produced by ISI were they not? That was in front of the scenes, not behind.

Intelligence agencies make a lot of noise when they are on the "offensive", controlling media & popular perception (by regulating the news); & agencies like the ISI are quiet these days because they are on the "defensive", being attacked on many fronts, & have popular perception against them.

They have evidence against them, which is why there is a bad perception against them.

You see this is what ISI needs to do. Show they are ball players with the nation and our protectors by finding out WHO it is from within the ISI that supported this anti-Pakistani action of kidnapping our people and holding them without trial and throw that man in jail.

ISI is protecting individuals and getting a bad name on the institution. ISI is important, Pashays and Kayanis are not.

 

[Black Widow]

I am afraid we, at a public level, are too misinformed. We are too naive in trying to make things seem black and white based on evidence (or the lack of it).

We hear accusations against ISI far more often by far more powerful countries, yet they're unable to present any decent proof as well. Now how does that relate to this thread? My theory is that each spy agency has more than enough proof against each other, but they don't want to reveal the evidence in the fear of the other revealing evidence as well. If ISI reveals evidence against RAW, they feel RAW might reveal evidence against ISI and so on.

This becomes more complex with fake evidence. it's not hard to manufacture fake evidence. Iraq war is a straightforward example, among others. If ISI wanted to prove RAW as supporting terrorists, they could manufacture fake evidence within weeks. And if they did have genuine evidence against RAW, RAW may manufacture fake evidence in response. Or, as I mentioned above, they may both have genuine evidence and not reveal it in the fear of what I mentioned above.

It all comes down to is what the public buys. And the public are not smart enough, nor informed enough to tell the difference between fake and real evidence. So in the end, not much can be done about this. The side that can f*ck the other one over more severely is the side whose story will become to be known as 'the truth'.

And this is in general, it does not relate to one spy agency.

"My theory is that each spy agency has more than enough proof against each other, but they don't want to reveal the evidence in the fear of the other revealing evidence as well. If ISI reveals evidence against RAW, they feel RAW might reveal evidence against ISI and so on.". What a lame excuse. Please go and tell these things to teen, Matured ppl live on PDF.


Post of the year..

The chief justice asked the defence counsel if the agencies had any credible information of the involvement of RAW and Mossad, and why they did not take any against them. “We did not bar you from taking action against RAW and Mossad.”

Good job Pakistan. Ask the proof.

RAW caught a Pakistani and proved his involvement, showed which village he was from and implicated the LeT.

They did all that, why can't ISI do the same?

Good question Asim..

 

[Awesome]

Nobody is impressed by this RAW, Mossad mantra. Especially not the courts. These are valuable Pakistani lives we are talking about and everyone in Pakistan is entitled to a fair trial with representation and being heard by competent authorities. Every Pakistani - that is the law, that is the humane way every successful country operates.

Missing persons case: Court unfazed by

The Supreme Court seemed unimpressed, yet again, by a familiar ‘revelation’ during a hearing of the missing persons’ case on Friday.

Counsel for the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency and the Military Intelligence (MI) Raja Irshad told the apex court that Indian spy agency Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) and Israel’s Mossad were active in Pakistan.

The defence counsel claimed that the two agencies were behind kidnappings in the country and were being helped by terrorist groups.

The chief justice asked the defence counsel if the agencies had any credible information of the involvement of RAW and Mossad, and if so, why had they not taken any action against them. “We did not bar you from taking action against RAW and Mossad,” Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry said.

Friday’s hearing continued in the usual fashion – a displeased court reprimanded the intelligence agencies for the treatment of the Adiala ‘missing’ prisoners.

“Were they not human? Why was the right to a fair trial denied to them? We will proceed against you after making some initial decisions,” he said, adding: “You will tell us how the four of them died in your custody.”

‘Picked up under govt’s nose’

Terming the intelligence agencies’ reply on Adiala missing persons unsatisfactory, the apex court took suo motu notice against the abduction of a young man who used to provide food at camps set up by relatives of missing persons outside Parliament.

A two-judge bench, headed by Chief Justice Chaudhry, directed Inspector General of Police Islamabad and Attorney General of Pakistan Maulvi Anwarul Haq to submit a report of the incident by today (March 17) and present the ‘missing’ boy before the court on March 19.

The chief justice also remarked that this time someone was abducted right under the government’s nose.

Advocate Tariq Asad, the counsel for missing persons, alleged that Omar Mehmood Khan, 24, was picked up by intelligence agencies because he used to serve food to families at the missing persons’ camp in D-Chowk (in front of the Parliament).
Irshad rejected the allegations, stating that the military intelligence agencies were not involved in missing person incidents.
Omar’s family, who recently returned from Canada, had informed the Human Rights Cell of the apex court about his disappearance through a letter. They wrote that Omar was abducted by the agencies on March 10 near the Orchid Scheme in Islamabad.

The letter further suggested that Omar’s kidnapping followed the pattern of many other missing persons who were picked up: Men, driving two double cabins with tinted glasses, a black corolla, a white Suzuki Baleno and a Suzuki Mehran picked up Omar in front of his father, mother and a younger brother.

Omar’s mother, Dr Rubina, was also present in the court today. The chief justice, while calming her down, said, “We will not allow anyone to act above the law”.

Advocate Irshad, however, asked why all blame was levelled on the ISI and MI. The chief justice replied that “we respect our armed forces and intelligence agencies, but when they detracted then the court and media expressed concern.”
State of Adiala prisoners

During the last hearing, the court had rejected explanatory reports submitted by the defence lawyer and termed them unsatisfactory. The court also sought a detailed report from the chief secretary of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. The K-P chief secretary submitted a report on the health of the Adiala prisoners on Friday, which was appreciated by the court.

Counsel for detainee Hafiz Majid, Advocate Tariq Asad, informed the court that his client was suffering from Cancer and Hepatitis C, and asked for permission to shift him to the Shaukat Khanum Cancer Hospital in Lahore. He added that the faces of the inmates were always covered with masks.

The court was also informed that the health condition of at least three prisoners was still not stable.
Asking ISI and MI’s counsel how the detainees were being treated, the chief justice remarked: “You will be accounted for each and every minute.”

Defending his clients, Irshad attempted to hand tangible ‘proof’ to the court. “I want to give you a CD so that you could realise what is going on in the operation area with the Pakistan Army.”

The chief justice, however, said that they realise each and everything, and even how drones are being bombarded on the innocent people of K-P. “We salute the sacrifices of people of K-P,” he said.

There is still time for the ISI to hang the culprits behind this before they take the entire institution down with them. The courts have the full support of the public and they will not back down.

 

[Ajaxpaul]

I'm 100% certain that there's foreign involvement on some level in Balochistan, not just from India, US; but possibly Russia, Iran & UAE as well. Balochistan has a porous, practically non-existent border with Afghanistan; & just like it was proven that India trained terrorists inside East Pakistan in 1971 as well, I have no doubt that the same is happening in Afghanistan with their consulates in Eastern Afghanistan (Kandahar & Kabul). Just look at the sophisticated weapons the Baloch terrorists have, & how frequently large amounts of explosives are coming in to Chaman from Afghanistan.

Dont you think ISI maybe meddling in Astan as well, trying to contain Indian Influence. What if RAW and CIA have evidence of ISI involvement with the radicals in Astan?

 

[Awesome]

ISI ne banda apni custody main pharka dia, how can any Pakistani defend this heinous act?

 

[53fd]

How do you know what happens behind the scenes? For all we know squat happens or all the bad things happens. "Behind the scenes" is not a defence, show it to us in front of the scenes. ISI is on trial, it needs to defend itself with evidence or counter prove the evidence that has been built up against it.

Missing persons were produced by ISI were they not? That was in front of the scenes, not behind.



They have evidence against them, which is why there is a bad perception against them.

You see this is what ISI needs to do. Show they are ball players with the nation and our protectors by finding out WHO it is from within the ISI that supported this anti-Pakistani action of kidnapping our people and holding them without trial and throw that man in jail.

ISI is protecting individuals and getting a bad name on the institution. ISI is important, Pashays and Kayanis are not.

The first issue: the supply of arms & explosives from Afghanistan is there for all to see. The Indians & foreign spies infiltrated from the Afghan border, infiltrating into Chaman is not a myth. The fact that Raymond Davis took pictures of sensitive nuclear installations, & had connections with terrorist groups is not a myth.

The second issue: most of the violence (kidnappings, target killings, terrorism) in Balochistan comes from some Baloch terrorists (in 2011, out of 697 acts of overall terrorism in Balochistan, over 510 were from Baloch terrorists).

In the first issue, we see foreign involvement; in the second issue, it might not be the case. But the second issue is supported by issue one.

Why is the ISI quiet about the spies it catches? Because it does not control the mainstream media, regulating the news like the CIA or other agencies do. The fact that no other mainstream media in the world criticizes its national agency the way Pakistan criticizes the ISI shows that the ISI does not control it, or regulating the news coming out of it. The ISI is dealing with many real (security) threats on many fronts, it does not have the time or the resources to control Pakistan's mainstream media; it catches these spies and deals with them accordingly, behind the scenes.

It is probable that the ISI in Pakistan has politically supported anti-American sentiments in the masses, to "counter" the threat from the mainstream media (which is funded internationally, & the ISI has no control over), which often attacks the ISI/Army & tries to weaken its image in the eyes of the public. The US openly talks about empowering Pakistan's civil society, to provide as a counterweight to the security establishment; at the "expense" to weaken the security establishment.

 

[53fd]

They have evidence against them, which is why there is a bad perception against them.

I'm not talking about this specific issue of the missing persons, but on a more general note.

Every agency has substantial evidence against the other, but they don't disclose it for a variety of reasons: a) using it as leverage at some point in the future if relations break, b) fear that the agency might disclose evidence against them, c) fear that the agency might covertly use the assets they "control" against their agency/interests.

Every agency has some dirty laundry that can be exposed to the public (such as the missing persons), but as SMC rightly pointed out, it is also very easy to "manufacture" evidence; & if you control the media outlets, to control popular perception by regulating/filtering the news coming out.

 

[Awesome]

I'm not talking about this specific issue of the missing persons, but on a more general note.

And I'm not generally being anti-ISI either. They have attacked Pakistanis and that's where I draw the line in giving a security agency a free hand. They just will not ever be allowed to arrest and hold Pakistanis without trial. It is an impossible thing to ask of the Pakistani people.

 

[AbhijitSingh]

And I'm not generally being anti-ISI either. They have attacked Pakistanis and that's where I draw the line in giving a security agency a free hand. They just will not ever be allowed to arrest and hold Pakistanis without trial. It is an impossible thing to ask of the Pakistani people.

See Asim, that is the problem.. Once you make an agency above law, and allow it to indulge in all kinds of stuff even if it is supposedly for national interests, it is impossible to put caveats and riders on the granted absolute power. And thats what is visible in the regular abduction and killing of Pakistani civilians by the ISI

 

[Awesome]

See Asim, that is the problem.. Once you make an agency above law, and allow it to indulge in all kinds of stuff even if it is supposedly for national interests, it is impossible to put caveats and riders on the granted absolute power. And thats what is visible in the regular abduction and killing of Pakistani civilians by the ISI

That's another thing, nothing in the constitution puts ISI above the law. The law just wasn't implemented before, now it is being done and ISI is like just saying one thing in their defence over and over "We are ISI, dammit!". It won't fly.

 

[53fd]

And I'm not generally being anti-ISI either. They have attacked Pakistanis and that's where I draw the line in giving a security agency a free hand. They just will not ever be allowed to arrest and hold Pakistanis without trial. It is an impossible thing to ask of the Pakistani people.

They have attacked Pakistanis that are a threat to Pakistan's security, which every agency does. When the courts acquit 3 out of every 4 terrorists in the country, which results in the increase of violence all over the country, one knows where the problem lies. It has full authority to target anti-state elements/terrorists that threaten Pakistan's security and integrity.

 

[53fd]

That's another thing, nothing in the constitution puts ISI above the law. The law just wasn't implemented before, now it is being done and ISI is like just saying one thing in their defence over and over "We are ISI, dammit!". It won't fly.

It is sad that senior members here have misconceptions about how much authority the ISI/Army has over Pakistan, & its affairs. The ISI/Army have always been accountable to the Supreme Court. It is not the fault of the ISI/Army for the rising extremism, for the worsening law and order situation (target killing & random violence) in the country (the LEA's fall under the jurisdiction of the government), it is not responsible for acquitting terrorists all over Pakistan in the name of human rights, it is not responsible for the lack of development, poor socioeconomic conditions in the country, the corruption in the country.

The very fabric of Pakistan society falls under the responsibility of the government. The Army has a very limited role in Pakistani affairs: it is only responsible for war zones (which in this case is FATA), and they have done a fairly good job on that front. The government (LEAs) are responsible for the situation in Balochistan, not the Army, as there are no troops deployed there.

 

[Awesome]

They have attacked Pakistanis that are a threat to Pakistan's security, which every agency does. When the courts acquit 3 out of every 4 terrorists in the country, which results in the increase of violence all over the country, one knows where the problem lies. It has full authority to target anti-state elements/terrorists that threaten Pakistan's security and integrity.

What would stop them from attacking you tomorrow because you have a property dispute against an ISI officer's phupi ka larka?

If you say no to trial then you say no to trial for yourself too. Before they were judged and executed as terrorists they were simply Pakistani citizens. In such a case if an ISI officer had malicious intent or even plain incompetence then you are screwed. Why would you want to put yourself in that position?

 

[53fd]

What would stop them from attacking you tomorrow because you have a property dispute against an ISI officer's phupi ka larka?

As long as I don't get involved in anti-state activities that compromise Pakistan & its security, they won't attack me. If I get involved, then they will. It's pretty simple, and every international agency does this.