Mi38 Worth Looking Into

[Metal 0-1]

Ghalti ho gai

Not a problem

 

[YeBeWarned]

Enlarged, different engine.

That said, the Super Puma would be the lowest-cost way to replace the Mi-8/171, but it's of the same generation of helicopters. So, if you want to move up a generation (get better efficiency, performance, etc), then the Mi-38 would be the right way to go IMHO for replacing the Mi-8/17.

hmm, are Puma and Augsta AW139 are from different categories ?

 

[Metal 0-1]

Mi-38 is best option for out Mi-17s.

But we should not end our search in west. Maybe we'll be able to pick some Chinooks.
Rear access door/Ramp must be present in our future helicopters. They'll be helpful in inserting/extracting rhibs, ATVs or Sling some RHIBS or Light vehicles plus a 12 man team..

In addition to army, navy also needs some love. Seaking helicopters are ancient they belong in museum now.
Chinese Z-20 aka Chinese Blackhawk is a nice option. OR might wanna look into Eurocopter EC725.

Our Mi-17s are still doing the job will do the job maybe for next I don't know more than five years. PUMAs are good but need replacement in couple of years, Bell 412s are in good shape, they need to be furbished mount some rocket pods. Cobras are being replaced in upcoming years.

Navy helicopters are in pretty bad shape. Z-9s are not that good. Seaking is a relic. Our new corvettes and frigates need choppers but Navy not showing sign of any deal may be in future.

So I've listed some good choppers, so consider their roles in future with Pakistan military,
Eurocopter EC725

AgustaWestland AW101

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Mi-17 and Augusta , Helicopters are great for our needs for transport units

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Yeah that's why I say tri services should come together and figure out how they can tailor a Mudium lift helicopter to their needs and one that will be a good export as well.

Maybe make a stealth medium lift i don't know.

Mi-38 is best option for out Mi-17s.

But we should not end our search in west. Maybe we'll be able to pick some Chinooks.
Rear access door/Ramp must be present in our future helicopters. They'll be helpful in inserting/extracting rhibs, ATVs or Sling some RHIBS or Light vehicles plus a 12 man team..

In addition to army, navy also needs some love. Seaking helicopters are ancient they belong in museum now.
Chinese Z-20 aka Chinese Blackhawk is a nice option. OR might wanna look into Eurocopter EC725.

Our Mi-17s are still doing the job will do the job maybe for next I don't know more than five years. PUMAs are good but need replacement in couple of years, Bell 412s are in good shape, they need to be furbished mount some rocket pods. Cobras are being replaced in upcoming years.

Navy helicopters are in pretty bad shape. Z-9s are not that good. Seaking is a relic. Our new corvettes and frigates need choppers but Navy not showing sign of any deal may be in future.

So I've listed some good choppers, so consider their roles in future with Pakistan military,
Eurocopter EC725

AgustaWestland AW101

Great options. Mi38 might have commonality with Mi35/Mi28(maybe) and AW149 will have commonality with T129(don't know how that will change with LHTEC ban and new Turk engine).

But yeah the new TAI 10 ton might also offer us a solid chance at getting our helicopter industry going by PAC entering manufacturing and export pipeline. Turks seem to offer good JV oppurtunities right now.

The Chinese seem to hace reached a stage in their defence development programmes where they would be more interested in being vendors rather than partners.

Mi-17 and Augusta , Helicopters are great for our needs for transport units

 

[fatman17]

Hundreds?

How did we get the several hundred Mi17s that we have today. Was CAATSA a risk back then too? Or did we get them as civvy versions and then paint em in camo?


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[Ahmet Pasha]

Yeah an over statement. The 50 smthn we have.

Hundreds?

On second though should we really field multiple makes?
Why not standardize one brand and configure it to three services. That way we could have scale and negotiate to manufacture parts at home. So there wont be the fear of spare parts shortage in even of a bogus US embargo.

IMHO the 10-ton designs are suitable Puma and Bell-412EP successors. They're bigger, but they'd serve the same core roles. The Mi-38 would be a direct Mi-8/17 successor. CAATSA is a risk, so if anything, the right way to go for it is to flag it as a civilian buy, but paint it in Pak.

 

[Hassan Guy]

On second though should we really field multiple makes?

Pakistan armed forces procurement team:

Yes.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Pakistan armed forces procurement team:

Yes.

How many helicopter types should we have?

Pak Armed Forces: Yes.

 

[fatman17]

That is the idea but unfortunately PN has own ambitions. Army and air force on same page. AW139 and Mi17s in service. In the past all 3 had the venerable Alouette in service in different roles. Now that the FMS road is blocked it is very likely that the 3 services will target the 2nd hand / used market to keep their respective fleets in service. New helos will be purchased in small batches of 2, 4, 6 etc. Badly cash strapped for capitalization.

Yeah an over statement. The 50 smthn we have.


On second though should we really field multiple makes?
Why not standardize one brand and configure it to three services. That way we could have scale and negotiate to manufacture parts at home. So there wont be the fear of spare parts shortage in even of a bogus US embargo.

 

[ARMalik]

Somehow, PAF was the only force within Pakistan Military which could seen that JV was the only possible way forward, and hence came up with JF-17. The army and the navy should have done JVs on Helicopters, ships, etc at least one decade ago. But they made one blunder after the other. And this is exactly what was suppose to happen to them.

 

[Viper27]

CAATSA is generally applicable on sophisticated, big ticket items. Its extremely unlikely the Mi-38 is going to cause problems with this law. Another way to get around CAATSA is to acquire in rubles not dollars. Also need to understand that CAATSA doesn't come into effect until the equipment is deployed for use, not when purchased. I really don't think CAATSA is a problem here. But PA may be more comfortable just acquiring more Mi-17s.

 

[Shabi1]

This along with several other option, Chinese blackhawk copycat, Chinese NH90 copycat(Z18) copycat and Turk 10 ton medium are some handful of medium lift options
Might even throw in AW149 too

Russians working on Mi38(Mi17 successor) note hot and high tests
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/general-aviation/2019-07-08/russian-mi-38-completes-high-hot-ifr-testing?amp

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @fatman17

Looks like a marketing move for the civilian market, Mi-17 will continue to be in production in parallel and further developed. PA is happy with current Mi-17 upgraded variants and we can expect Mi-38 technology trickling down to the Mi-17 variants too. Besides we are investing in further support infrastructure. If they do need a replacement, Mi-38 would have to battle it out with alternate offerings from China and Turkey, so would be a competition.

PA was looking into a Mi-26 acquisition, wonder what happened to it. Need for a heavy lift helicopter was felt after the 2008 earthquake and the US lent Chinooks added capability PA didn't have.

Chinooks were deemed too expensive and only alternate was Mi-26. No updates on it afterwards.

 

[nomi007]

Question is where is the Money?

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Bro that is story of Pakistan's life. We never had good solid money throughout our history. Indians colluded with British to block our funds.

They tried to buy us out by giving us economic prosperity in 50s and 60s. But then they saw us as a threat and sent in Bhutto the usefull idiot to do his job on us.

Even numerous of our projects run on priority basis. Limited funds get assigned to whatever is deemed priority.

Question is where is the Money?