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Kashmir The Freedom of Struggle

Comparitivly speaking.

Yes even then.

sword9 said:
Pick any time period, you will find max deaths due to the militants, deaths due to security forces are there but miniscule. Here we court-martial those breaking the law, compare it to the Sui rape case.

Not really. Thousands disappear in the darkness of the night and never come back, staged encounters and what not, etc. Sui rape case? What about thousands of women raped by security forces in Kashmir? Court-martialling a handful doesn't do justice.
 
The question arises here of politics. Your question is open-ended because even though Pakistan may not be supporting the militancy, some elements continue to exercise their will in the porous LOC region.
As India denied any help to Mukti Bahini or nurturing of Tamil Tigers time and again but everyone now knows (as has been established)where it came from.
Exactly, neither did equipment and training just blossom in the rice fields of East Pakistan; it came from somewhere as it did in the Sri Lankan case.
So, Pakistan is justified in arming the Kashmiri militants because India armed the Mukti Bahini?
even though Pakistan may not be supporting the militancy
Allowing them to operate in Pakistan administered areas is akin to supporting them. They survive because the IA cannot get at them in 'Azad' Kashmir. Do you disagree on the point that training camps exist in Pakistan?
 
So, Pakistan is justified in arming the Kashmiri militants because India armed the Mukti Bahini?

The implication was not justification, rather that 'those who live in glass houses should not throw stones'.

Allowing them to operate in Pakistan administered areas is akin to supporting them. They survive because the IA cannot get at them in 'Azad' Kashmir. Do you disagree on the point that training camps exist in Pakistan?

Do you disagree with Mukti Bahini training camps that existed in India for the sole purpose of purpose of perpetrating terror? Or that Tamil Tigers were the creation of Indian intelligence?
 
The implication was not justification, rather that 'those who live in glass houses should not throw stones'.



Do you disagree with Mukti Bahini training camps that existed in India for the sole purpose of purpose of perpetrating terror? Or that Tamil Tigers were the creation of Indian intelligence?

I'm not debating the morality or legality of the issue. Just looking for verification of its authenticity. Basically if tommorrow there is a terrorist attack by the LeT in New Delhi Pakistan can't claim that it has no links with it.
 
I'm not debating the morality or legality of the issue. Just looking for verification of its authenticity. Basically if tommorrow there is a terrorist attack by the LeT in New Delhi Pakistan can't claim that it has no links with it.

First it would have to be established beyond doubt that it was in fact the LeT (which by the way is also banned in Pakistan now).


REICHSLEITER said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/h...ml/default.stm

Yeah I've come across this before. As a compromise, I personally would favor the Scenario 6 but lets also keep in mind that most of them favor Pakistan as is naturally the case, since India never had the right reasons for holding on to Kashmir and hence, the u-turn on the plebicite; they know they'll lose out.
 
Not really.
Thousands disappear in the darkness of the night and never come back, staged encounters and what not, etc.
Thousands? - Its an exaggeration.
Sui rape case? What about thousands of women raped by security forces in Kashmir? Court-martialling a handful doesn't do justice.
Those allegations were just that motivated allegations that were proved false. Those that were correct got justice.

Besides, here is some light on the actual ground situation....
Arms and the woman
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1063574
Ishfaq ul Hassan
Saturday, November 11, 2006 23:50 IST
In the remote mountains of Jammu, women have taken up arms to fight militants.

SURANKOTE (Jammu): When 26-year-old Munira Begum left the pots and pans in her kitchen to pick up a gun, she inspired many others like her to join the self-defence drive against militants in Kulali village of Surankote, once a hotbed of militancy.

Frail-looking Munira is like any other ordinary Gujjar woman in Kulali-Hilkaka, where family traditions are revered. But constant oppression by militants has compelled its women to join the village defence committees. They even helped the Army to flush out terrorists during Operation Sarp Vinash. "We were at the receiving end. The ultras threatened us, took away our food, demanded shelter and targeted our menfolk. We felt very insecure when the men went to work," says Munira.

It was Munira's husband Tahir Fazal Hussain who mobilised the villagers to take up arms after his brother Arif Hussain was killed by militants. The security forces provided the arms, and trained the villagers to engage the militants till they could be rounded up.

"I can handle an AK-47 or a .303 rifle. A few years back, there was an attack on our house. I fired from my rifle, injuring two militants," says Munira.

According to Colonel RKSingh, commanding officer of 16 Rashtriya Rifles, at least 15 women are members of village defence committees (VDCs) in Kulali-Hilkaka area alone.

"These women were alone at home and vulnerable. They have now taken up arms to ward off militants. Women are still an important factor in VDCs, though the area has been cleared off," says Col Singh.

Twenty-five km away from Kulali, in Dandidara village, 20 male VDCs have trained their womenfolk to handle arms. The village, situated at the top of a mountain, has no road connectivity. One has to climb mountain ridges to reach it. The area, covered by dense forests, was like the militants' headquarters.

Jamsheeda Begum, 30, of Dandidara is illiterate, and the mother of five children. She can now easily operate a .303 rifle. "Militants used to roam the neighbouring jungles, and take away everything we cooked. We took arms training to confront them in the absence of our menfolk," says Jamsheeda.

Twenty-eight-year-old Zulfa Bi of Dandidara had a duel with the ultras when they attacked her house. "They asked me to hand over my 15-year-old son so that he could be sent to Pakistan for arms training. They even offered me Rs2 lakh for this. It was getting out of hand," says Zulfa Bi.

Today, Dandidara is a peaceful village with Army posts on high ridges. Both men and women have taken up arms to fight the militants. "We have set up posts in the village. The people have taken the initiative to fight the militants. We provide them support. With our joint efforts, the area has been cleared up," says Major Vinod Yadav, company commander of a Rashtriya Rifles at Dandidara.

Some analysts, however, feel women have become more vulnerable by taking up arms in remote areas. "It is an act of desperation. It has made women VDC members more vulnerable," says Prof Rekha Chaudhary, head of the Department of Political Science, University of Jammu.

Others tend to disagree with that notion. "I worked in that area as relief commissioner during the 1971 war. People were highly touchy about honour. This is the driving force for women to take up arms to save themselves from the militants. Besides, people have realised that terrorism has eaten into the vitals of society, and it needs immediate remedial measures," says MM Khajuria, a former director general of police.
 
Sid ,
Here is some more food for thought.....inspite of what propaganda may have many like you believe, there are no "freedom fighters" in J&K, but bandits - they have very little support from the people.

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1063560
‘It was a big sacrifice’

Ishfaq ul Hassan
Saturday, November 11, 2006 23:19 IST

Kashmiri men gave up lucrative jobs in Saudi Arabia to return home to fight militants

Forty-year-old Haji Ghulam Hassan had to leave his lucrative job in Saudi Arabia to return to his village in the treacherous mountain ridges of Jammu to fight militants. But he has no regrets.

Haji’s fight started when the ultras killed his uncle and humiliated him in his own village. His house was burnt down and his brother tortured, forcing him to migrate to Surankote town with 10 family members. “I had gone to Saudi Arabia to work as a contractor. But when I returned to my village, I found the area heavily infested by militants. They made people’s lives hell. I was once brutally thrashed by the ultras because I did not buy Pepsi for them from Surankote market,” says Haji.

Though he went back to Saudi Arabia, the disturbing situation at home haunted him. One day, he just decided to return.

Interestingly, the plan to fight militants was finalised in Masjid al-Haram in Mecca. “Five of us met at Masjid al-Haram in Mecca and took an oath to wipe out the zalims (oppressors). We deputed two men to meet army and police officers. Since then, we have not looked back,” says Haji, reflecting the popular mood in this remote village which a few years ago was a base-camp and launchpad of hundreds of Lashkar-e-Toiba and Harkat-ul-Mujahideen militants.

Tahir Fazal Hussain too left his job in Saudi Arabia and came back to avenge his brother Arif’s killing. “I left my job and returned to my village. Then I slit the throat of the militant who had killed my brother. I also picked up a gun and set up the village defence committee, which joined the Army in flushing out militants,” says Tahir.

Likewise, Haji Aslam’s life changed forever after the militants massacred 13 people in Tehili village on one of the ridges of Hilkaka. Aslam left his job that paid 3000 Saudi riyals to come back. His anger stemmed from the fact that the killings were being carried out in the name of Islam. “I felt this was not Jihad. I decided to fight these militants. Today, I see a change because the area has been cleared of militants, though for us, it was a big sacrifice,” he says.

Haji Lal fought the militants for a year and then resumed his job in Saudi Arabia. “I am now going back because things have subsided,” says Hussain, whose brother-in-law has remained untraceable after being kidnapped by the militants.

At least eight men left their jobs in Saudi Arabia to fight militants at home. One of them has become a village numbardar now. Others have become special police officials and earn a monthly salary of Rs3,000. They have also formed the Jammu Peace Mission.
 

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First it would have to be established beyond doubt that it was in fact the LeT (which by the way is also banned in Pakistan now).
And the LeT has gracefully retired? Its still working under different names now. The moral values of the LeT aren't debatable or Pakistan wouldn't have banned it at all. I'm surprised it even acknowledged the LeT's existance. Anyways it is common knowledge that the LeT (or products of the erstwhile LeT if you'd prefer it that way) are operational in India.
 
Sword9, you have got to be kidding me! If you want me to believe 'DNAINDIA' over 'BBC', that certainly isn't going to happen! Reality is, India has failed to mount an effective propaganda campaign maligning freedom fighters in addition to paying mercenaries to target civilians to give the freedom fighters a bad name. Ordinary people certainly can't tell a 'real' fighter from a paid local mercenary dressed as one!

You say thousands have not died and not raped and not dissappeared? Perhaps, you should first convince the world and relatively unbiased international media outlets who are saying that.

Vnomad, the very fact that Pakistan acknowledged LeT's existence and banned it should be taken as a good sign. Whatever may be happening in India now (apart from the usual rhetoric that even if a bird dies, its ISI's doing) is mostly non-related to Pakistan. My advice, find another escape goat.
 
Sword9, you have got to be kidding me! If you want me to believe 'DNAINDIA' over 'BBC', that certainly isn't going to happen! Reality is, India has failed to mount an effective propaganda campaign maligning freedom fighters in addition to paying mercenaries to target civilians to give the freedom fighters a bad name. Ordinary people certainly can't tell a 'real' fighter from a paid local mercenary dressed as one!
The articles were examples to other side of the coin, DNA is a fairly newspaper and has yet to show bias, unlike BBC. I use to operate there so I know the people and their affiliations. You may continue to believe whatever you want, but ground realities are what matter, and your beliefs are at a tangent to reality.
You say thousands have not died and not raped and not dissappeared? Perhaps, you should first convince the world and relatively unbiased international media outlets who are saying that.
I don't have to, they seem to be seeing through the haze of late.
Vnomad, the very fact that Pakistan acknowledged LeT's existence and banned it should be taken as a good sign. Whatever may be happening in India now (apart from the usual rhetoric that even if a bird dies, its ISI's doing) is mostly non-related to Pakistan. My advice, find another escape goat.
Vnomad may be a bit younger so you may brush him aside. However, you negate the fact that LET is the armed wing of the "Markaz-e-Dawa-wal-Irshad". This same Markaz-e-Dawa was authorized by the Pak govt to recieve funds for the earthquake in J&K 1 year ago, and the same organisation funds a UK terror plot. Changing a name does not change anything, and to quote the old bard "A rose with any other name will smell just as sweat", but in the case of the LET you could say "stink".
 
Not really. Thousands disappear in the darkness of the night and never come back, staged encounters and what not,.

There wud be a number and that is published.Insurgents are to be blamed equally for the abductions as many surrendered militants have confessed that they are kidnapped and taken to Pakistan for training.

What about thousands of women raped by security forces in Kashmir? .

Thousands of women?

Court-martialling a handful doesn't do justice.

Court martialing even a few does send out the right message.
 
First it would have to be established beyond doubt that it was in fact the LeT (which by the way is also banned in Pakistan now)..

Go and say that to a school kid.Everybody knows under what name Let operates now.
 
If it is the case why don't you leave Baloch and NWFP people to decide their fate on their own.

Unlike Kashmir, Balochistan and Fata are not a disputed territory bur joined Pakistani Federation under IoA.
Kashmiri's were never given the opportunity to decide their future.
 
Unlike Kashmir, Balochistan and Fata are not a disputed territory bur joined Pakistani Federation under IoA.
Kashmiri's were never given the opportunity to decide their future.

Their ruler, the King was given the oppurtunity, and he sided with India when Pakistan sent in her troops as locals for a revolt fearing that the King may side with India. It is actually that invasion from Pakistan that made the King sign with India.
 

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