Kale Kalote Muhajrs! PMLN's Saleem Zia's Controversial Remarks
- Thread starter Musafir117
- Start date
Awww come on you are treating me like a kid who does not know anything (as your buddy Oscar here thinks or thought once or twice) I have spent sometime on Karachi's roads (good quality time), and I have dined with my colleague a MQM diehard member (he happened to be a government servant too at the same time) more than a hundred times.
Them having guns can never be a justification for you having guns too nor it gives you license to carry one. The major distinction between them and MQM is they make fools out of people (read this thread its very easy) and MQM tries threatening people with dire consequences. MQM earned its fame and its blessed to have AH as its main media face and top it up U turn policies. Plus one is known by the company it keeps, Zardari AH's best chaddi buddi. AH has I think significant contribution to inventing new terms like "Bori", "Bhatta" etc etc I mean sometimes I really get confused what should I make of AH, a leader or an underworld don?
If you ask me for an honest opinion, on my hate list ANP tops, I have some personal and ethnic reasons for that.
batmannow
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2008
- Messages
- 18,830
- Reaction score
- -19
- Country
- Location
Stupid man lives in Karachi , became a senator just few weeks before trying his best to prove his position in the hawks group within PMLn ?
time will come & surly he will face a angry Karachi MOB , with the neckless of shoes .lolzzzz
Only then he will realize what , he said was not in the dreams ?
time will come & surly he will face a angry Karachi MOB , with the neckless of shoes .lolzzzz
Only then he will realize what , he said was not in the dreams ?
haviZsultan
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2007
- Messages
- 9,045
- Reaction score
- 36
- Country
- Location
I have discussed this infinitely. I will quote one of my previous postsOne of my relatives married a pushtoon girl a few years back
Agreed but what people ignore is the millions of Punjabi muhajars. Are they not muhajars?
Instead of calling yourselves muhajars, you should have called yourselves Karachiwals or Hydrabadis and should have stopped bothering some racist locals.
Problems with the term "Muhajir"
1) Muhajir is not an ethnicity due to the fact that each migrant has a differing culture, brings with him a unique family background and history and finally has various linguistic differences, in this case even within "Urdu-speakers". Point to note that Bihari, Lucknowi and Hyderabadi dialects of Urdu differ. This is discussed in detail in post 5. Our culture is Gujrati, Marathi, Lucknowi, Bihari or Hyderabadi. A wider identity obfuscates our real identity and richness of our real culture.
2) There is hypocrisy in the fact that a person from Lucknow with almost no cultural link to a person from Madras can bind himself together under the collective identity of Muhajir and look down on his Punjabi/Pashtun/Sindhi brother but cannot unite with the Punjabi, Sindhi or Baloch. The use of this term for division in Pakistan is clear for all to see.
3) Muhajir is an offensive term meaning pilgrim. It reduces a people that perceive themselves as an ethnic group to mere nomads. The question is allegations are made that the identity was not adopted by them but imposed by "other" ethnic groups. But an identity with negative connotations attached is immediately abandoned by a people with any form of self-respect. So why are they now keen to call themselves Muhajir?
4) Muhajir is another word for pilgrim. How does it describe a person who who is settled in the main cities of Pakistan and has access to the best education, healthcare and services in the entire country? It makes a people with a proud history look like nomads.
5) The term itself is a cause of insecurity amongst Muhajirs which has often resulted in the bashing of other ethnic groups in order to reiterate the fact that they are Muhajirs. The entire identity is now based on the aspects of being victims, being superior to other ethnic groups and deflecting and shifting any blame for mistakes. A look into previous posts will tell any person how true this.
6) Muhajir was meant to be a term that basically referred to all those who moved from what is now India to what is now Pakistan. However they themselves have proven it wrong. The Muhajirs that settled in Punjab now have adopted the term Punjabi for themselves, the ones in Pakhtunkhwa Pashtuns or Hindkowan's and the ones in Balochistan Baloch. Even in Karachi there are families who identify as Sindhi particularly the Memons are a case to note. Chak Bamu himself sees himself as a Punjabi. So basically the term has failed.
7) What self-respect will someone who is forever calling himself a pilgrim have left? A simple look at how discriminatory this term is will reveal the underlying reasons for a persons security. Its like forever being called a donkey. Thus the average Muhajir is forced to accept that identity and to feel secure in it insult or look down at every other person from another ethnic group.
7) The final reason is if it is simply movement from point A to point B then everyone is basically a Muhajir because since the beginning of the world people have been moving from one place to the other. The Pashtuns who came to Karachi are also Muhajir and the Sindhis who went to Punjab are also Muhajir. The term is NO term.
"Urdu-speaker"
1) Urdu-speaker is often used by non-muhajirs as a means to ensure they do not "offend" the Muhajir, realizing Muhajir itself is an offensive term though it raises the question once again why the Muhajir himself is keen to maintain this identity. However the flaw with Urdu-speaker is that it is simply another term for Muhajir meaning exactly the same thing and being the same wider identity for groups with cultural differences.
2) Urdu-speaker is discriminatory to those migrants who have a language other than urdu, for example Gujrati or Marathi. This is the primary reason why it is again a mistake to label people Muhajirs or Urdu speakers. It is an injustice to call a person whose ancestral language isn't urdu an urdu-speaker and as is clear truthseer has rejected this term too on account of his language.
3) Building on point 2 it raises the fundamental question that if the entire term "Muhajir/Urdu-speaker" is based on urdu-which language are we to promote? If we are promoting Urdu then what about those who speak Gujrati or Madrasi? Here we see how this incomplete term is actually killing our languages and if you look further killing our distinct cultures too by putting people with different cultures under one magnifying glass.
Part 2 Possible solutions:
1) Merge within local cultures: Merging with local cultures is not as hard as people make it appear nor is there any proof that locals do not want us to merge. In fact even the nationalist Sindhis have constantly stated the fact that they are ready to accept migrants-they just want them to start calling themselves Sindhi. I have largely merged with Pashtuns and have developed Pashtun identity. Never have I once felt that someone doesn't want me to call myself one and have given examples of how much respect I have earned by doing so. This is a myth perpetuated by MQM members who want to maintain a distinct identity themselves. Also a case to note here is that those who migrated to Pakhunkhwa merged into local ethnic groups, those who did to Balochistan did the same, most in Punjab too did the same but a massive concentration of refugees settled in Karachi which made it difficult for us here to merge. It is our families refusing to drop the identity, not them. This debate can help them make the decision.
2) Reinforce our past and identify ourselves with our real culture: As stated earlier in the issues with the wider terminology "Muhajir" used for migrants it does not do justice to our rich cultures. There is nothing wrong calling ourselves Bihari or Lucknowi. Pakistan is changing rapidly and these places being in India won't matter which I believe is the worry. We can explain how once our houses hosted the Muslim League. Now note that I haven't given up on my Ansari family despite adopting Pashtun identity... so maybe the two can exist at the same time as well. Of these 2 options however I will believe merger (option 1) is better. Why? Because the process of losing culture, history and language has already largely begun. I can cite many examples. Another thing is those places are in India-some people just appear suspicious about us maintaining links-I noticed this at FIA office when moving people and for naturalization process. However if option 1 is too difficult as it means learning an entire new culture and language this can be done.
3) In case of failure in 1 and 2. Maintain the term Muhajir (I will not advise this but if as Chak Bamu said there is no choice but to accept it-then fine (though in my response I will explain that this is a perception and the identity has stuck for a time, an attempt made to make it permanent by Altaf's seal which makes it hard for us to see a future without it): But retain objectivity and self-criticism and for gods sake do not let the identity be used for political means and reject every time any political ideology that uses Muhajir as a tool for unity-it is hypocracy because if we can unite with a Goan who eats fish I can with my Punjabi or Sindhi brother under the flag of Pakistani Nationalist. Understand that politics on the basis of ethnicity has the power to divide and it divides us from the other ethnic groups in Pakistan which are supposed to be our brothers. Teach your kids love, respect and make sure they never hate another group. Even if you believe in something you have a greater role tell them that each ethnic group had an equal role-tell them stories of how other ethnic groups sacrificed for Muhajirs (Pashtuns and Balochs raised Lashkars to protect migrating Muhajir families)... do not let them become fanatics who hate one another. Please. Though this term should go, a political party with insight can help it disappear though disengaging MQM from Karachi will be a challenge.
Part 3Logic behind aforementioned solutions:
1) Merge within local cultures: -In Pakistan we have enough ethnic tensions and it is clear that ethnicity often makes us think highly of ourselves. The logic to this is simple. Muhajir chauvinism is part of a reason for the rise of ethnic tensions. Now I have always argued for the diversity of our cultures but for the aforementioned reasons Muhajir is not actually a culture (see post 5). Its a term that is an injustice to our real cultures which make us very diverse. However merger can help diffuse these tensions-we don't need a separate community in Pakistan with its already existing ethnic tensions and that also which is basically a false identity. It is indeed in the best interests of the country and Muhajirs that they merge, otherwise it will always be a cause of great insecurity. A person moves all the time-what happens is usually they adopt local customs and ways. There is nothing wrong with it. What has hampered it is us outnumbering the Sindhis (in Karachi) who were 60% originally and are now 7-8% of the population. We overwhelmed them and with such a massive population it became harder to merge.
-Our original cultures have already been disappearing. Its quite visible. A bhabi is from Hyderabad and only her grandmother speaks the Deccan dialect of Urdu. So perhaps this may be the better solution compared to 2). Its gradually happening and @truthseer can confirm that a lot of his family members may not know his original language which is disappearing. Here either an effort can be made to save it or merge within the local fabric.
-It is a great way to create goodwill and ethnic harmony. I gave an example of the Pashtun driver who had become used to abuse from our families. I merged and now he respects me utterly. I say Afghans (nation) are highly intolerant he gives them a few galis, I say Pakistan Zindabad, he says he will die for Pakistan. If I am making someone more patriotic, strenghthening the bond between communities in my holy Pakistan... well its a cause I would be willing to live and die for. I will learn all 5 major languages of Pakistan and merge with the Pashtuns. The ethnic issue dies at the walls of Pakistani Nationalism.
-It will end the chauvinism and hatred we see today. Its stupid for a Muhajir to hate on all these communities because muhajir is a term for migrants. Chak Bamu is a muhajir too if we go by what these guys mean when they say it (all who moved from India being migrants) but he is a Punjabi too... so basically how silly can you be? When you insult him or a Punjabi you are insulting Muhajirs which is a wide term for all migrants.
-It will send a strong message of unity. Today Indians laugh at me saying I have no place in Pakistan because I am by birth a muhajir-this is of course untrue but when you call yourself a pilgrim you just give them barrels of gunpowder for their cannons. I am a Pashtun-I refuse this discriminatory label called Muhajir. Za Pashtun yam aw zama watan der aziz de (I am Pashtun and my country is valuable to me). Chak Bamu, Sedqal, Hyperion every other person here of different ethnicity is my Pakistani blood brother and it is my responsibility to do everything I can for him, even give my life for him. Pakistan is not a "Muhajir" empire or that of any ethnic group. It is for all of us and each one of our cultures is brilliant and worth preserving.
2) Reinforce our past and identify ourselves with our real culture: -There are benefits of this as we can reclaim a lot of our heritage which we are losing. Our clothes, our culture... everything. Muslim married hyderabadi women wear saris but this is gradually being lost. It shouldn't be and we can work to save it by re-adopting our real ethnic identity rather than a false label.
One of the flaws with this is however is that a lot of migrants today haven't even been to their ancestral villages or towns so they don't really feel any link to Lucknow, Hyderabad or whichever place they migrated from. Personally that is why I feel 1 is better.
-Going by the statement however I made to Armstrong that truly being a Pakistani means loving each one of our ethnic groups and respecting each one. That means that each language or culture must be preserved at all costs. Therefore Gujarati, Marathi, Deccan, Madrasi, Goan-whatever, should be preserved.
3) Maintain the term Muhajir :-Now as I said this is a last ditch measure-if it is impossible to merge we can maintain the term despite its shortfalls. The only reason I am putting this in there is Chak Bamu's post. But I will simply state given the monumental evidence that simply makes it clear that this identity is only actually a piece of porcelain, fragile and fake that it is possible to break it-truthseer i have seen sometimes defended muhajirs but he is seeing this too. The identity is fake-when you are attempting to break it there will be a lot of noise at first but if it is individuals from the urdu-speaking community that rise to the occasion and attempt to do it, it can be done. If you want proof darkinsky seems to have given up completely...American Pakistani too and other such posters have also answered my posts not only now but before too selectively-because this is all the simple undeniable truth which they have never in their history looked at-they can only look at it themselves when the mask of "victimization" disappears but I am forcing them to look at the other side. So basically Muhajir can disappear but will someone appear who challenges it and does not fear being shot by the MQM remains to be seen? As Chak Bamu said it is possible it will remain and very difficult to eliminate it despite the lie it is. Even I am forced to use it because there is no other word for migrant. But it can go away and it should. If a person refuses to abandon it when faced with these monumental facts he is stupid-but some people do not abandon old ways.
All this is basically something like a hidden door in a castle-it reveals an entirely new world that has forever been locked away to the average migrants eyes- a way of thinking that is totally new and revolutionary for someone who has been imposed with the identity of muhajir all the time which can only be reinforced with bigotism and racism which I said again is to themselves! These things being discussed have never perhaps been discussed in the history of migrants. So @Chak Bamu can the Muhajir identity disappear-yes it can my dear but what u need is a knowledgeable person from that community who can challenge the pillars on which it is established.
So back to your question @truthseer... yes Sindhi Karachite is a perfect term.If some people have a worry over that then their original culture should come like Gujrati or Bihari but Muhajir is no identity-it just shows a lack of self-respect. Its nothing wrong though some people don't want us to associate with those old places-they don't understand the history and how these places have been home to the Muslim League. They were supposed to be part of Pakistan anyway as highlighted in Chaudhry Rehmat Ali's pamphlet.
In the past posts we looked at the various problems, the issues that arise but this is a look at solutions. I would mark this post as the "solution" post... the question is will it happen? Is it really possible that a person is disengaged from the identity completely as @Chak Bamu questioned or rather stated the opinion that I may have to accept "Muhajir" as a permanent term. To that I will reply soon.
But I believe that it is possible to disengage from the discriminatory, incomplete term Muhajir. @truthseer here is willing to do it, I am willing to do it and have done it already by calling myself Pashtun, a lot of others may be too and the failure of the term is proven by your refusal to count yourself as one despite being a migrant. I will explain this further in Chak Bamu's reply.
Anyone new should read this post, post 1 and 5. Also do read some of @truthseer's and @Chak Bamu's posts for an alternative view or a background to the situation. Let this debate be a shining torch for Pakistan's people that aids us in doing away with our ethnic issues and biases. Muhajirs criticize and analyze their role after 47. Others will do the same. I advise my community of birth to look at things critically-think beyond race and ethnicity and the victim mentality which are the bulwarks of the MQM. Challenge them for our leader is Quaid E Azam not Altaf as is of all Pakistanis which makes us all one.
We should accept either ethnic identity which is Bihari, Hyderabadi, Lucknowi or we should claim local identity, pashtun sindhi balochi etc. I have done both so I am a Lucknowi Pashtun.
This is a racist post and because of this we are stuck where we are. What have we muhajirs given to the country since the year 1947 except our rants against others and our demands for extra rights. We threw away Bengal demanding the supremacy of urdu, we have a gdp per capita higher than anyone else, control of Sindh's cities and the economic power that comes with it but still we find fault in the Sindhis/Balochs/Pashtuns and others?
Personally I don't care about your comment but for the nation I worry and deeply so. When half the worlds bigots are filled in my Pakistan and each ethnic group thinks it is superior and the others weak... what could be a possible solution to such a problem?
What I did though was I saw the bias amongst my own ethnic group and did something very few did. I simply rebelled, and for one yes I am going to marry a Pashtun woman.
As for the comment about ethnic enclaves, well can a Pashtun visit orangi town. This is a collective, national problem and yes I have indeed seen racist pashtuns too but am I going to judge them all? No. But I will continue criticizing the wrong in my community. When others will see us condemning ourselves and the organizations we create like the MQM, others will follow suit, and that is my hope.
HttpError
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2014
- Messages
- 4,411
- Reaction score
- -18
- Country
- Location
haviZsultan
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2007
- Messages
- 9,045
- Reaction score
- 36
- Country
- Location
Negative rating me would not change any reality.
Bringing PMLN to power certainly would. Even though PPP PMLN MQM all have looted the country for generations. You are the Punjabi equivalent of MQM supporting Mahajirs.
Thorough Pro
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2008
- Messages
- 13,232
- Reaction score
- -21
- Country
- Location
I am totally against discrimination of any kind I just stated a fact, when you abuse others, you should be ready to be abused and have a big heart or don't abuse others at all.
Credit must be given to statements like "Zinda Laash" to bring out "Muhazir" Quomi Movement. An ideology which was increasingly getting isolated has got a fresh lease of life. Victimhood sentiments will be milked to hilt. Must say Rangers have done tremendous favour to MQM. They got to get rid of many target killers from their ranks and the raid gave them another reason to play victims.
Thorough Pro
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2008
- Messages
- 13,232
- Reaction score
- -21
- Country
- Location
Unfortunately our society is very in-sensitive and openly and freely uses such racist slurs in daily conversations, but when others do the same we start crying. It's right time for us to have anti racist laws, all such racist slurs/abuses should be banned and severely punishable. This unfortunately is the only way to teach manners, may be our next generations will be better than us.
Karachiite
BANNED
- Joined
- May 1, 2010
- Messages
- 3,044
- Reaction score
- -2
- Country
- Location
Love how all these non-Urdu speakers are condoning such racist remarks. Just goes to show how Urdu speakers will never be accepted in this racist intolerant country. The ones who sacrificed the most for this hellhole are the ones being discriminated against the most. As for skin color, Punjabis and Sindhis are both just as dark, I don't understand the logic behind such racial remarks against Urdu-speakers. But I shouldn't expect much from cultures which exploit young boys, are the masterminds of terrorism, still involved in slavery, and host one of the largest prostitution neighborhood in the world. Congratulations to Bangalis for escaping from such a racist and intolerant nation.
Last edited:
batmannow
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2008
- Messages
- 18,830
- Reaction score
- -19
- Country
- Location
Being over educated & good at academics surly is not a power to change the history ?
Which says jeay sindh, BALOUCH national party, & ANP came to their existence way before even MQM was born ?
What is the problem with muhajir , seraikis, hazara,s names ?
Problem is it denies & weakend the centuries old power of few landlords from different part of the country ?
& you think state of Pakistan , the rullers, the power players are ready to listen to you ?
Those who can't bring clean drinking water to poor Pakistanis will think so deeply ?
& will come up with , anti racism laws ?
My dear friend , wish you good luck with your dreams .
Sheikh Rauf
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2014
- Messages
- 5,732
- Reaction score
- -10
- Country
- Location
What if he lose his one eye in accident.. Allah forbid but who knows then how does he feel if someone will call him kana zia... completly redicilious and unacceptable comments by MP. Party sud take notice and kick this fatty out of politics.
batmannow
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2008
- Messages
- 18,830
- Reaction score
- -19
- Country
- Location
Here we go , again angels party PTI ?
Which is based on the runaway trains mostly from PPP & PMLn?
They were also part of every govt , & are involved in looting & crouption .
Super post , sir
I am happy to see that on PDF still a united Pakistan exists .
& PDF admin is greatly having a good team , which brings & even corrects the wrong images some of us , as posters are trying paint .
It doesn't matters who is what, but justice should be equal to everyone & shouldn't target a few?
We don't support MQM 100% , & may be we don't like it , but facts should remain facts that it has the mandate of the peoples of Karachi , & has struggled for their rights against all odds ?
Calling them the only problem of Karachi is not fair , & couldn't be justified any way .
dont go bazuka unless you hear it yourself...too much gund is being spread lately.
but if he did say it he must be fired from PMLN
