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JF17 now maritime strike role

Hi,

This is where the utility of the JH7B with a heavier payload and a longer loiter time is needed the most---it flies CAP farther away and then can dash in for any kind of support----.

The strike capability of the JH7B would keep the indian navy farther out---.

If indian navy is an aggressor---the fight would depend on how much damage it can absorb---and what kind of damage pak military can inflict.

The JF17 is a wonderful aircraft in its own category and on its own merit---but its utility falls a little too short off the target.

It basically does not have THE KILLING PUNCH---it just simply cannot SMASH & OBLITERATE the opponent.
 
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Hi,

This is where the utility of the JH7B with a heavier payload and a longer loiter time is needed the most---it flies CAP farther away and then can dash in for any kind of support----.

The strike capability of the JH7B would keep the indian navy farther out---.

If indian navy is an aggressor---the fight would depend on how much damage it can absorb---and what kind of damage pak military can inflict.

The JF17 is a wonderful aircraft in its own category and on its own merit---but its utility falls a little too short off the target.

It basically does not have THE KILLING PUNCH.
The ideal would be a Flanker. A fully capable multi-role platform with the range to traverse over the seas and the payload to pack a punch; we could have the JF-17s work along the coasts, and the Flanker patrol further into sea. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like we will/can secure the platform easily. Having the JH-7 as a bomb truck of sorts is an interesting idea, it would necessitate a symbiotic relationship between the JH-7 and JF-17 though; the two squadrons would definitely have to be in the same wing, and closely coordinate (akin to the Masroor AB force today).
 
Please excuse my lack of technical expertise...but I am a bit skeptical in regards to the effectiveness of JF-17 in a maritime capacity (as the primary aircraft). Won't we be needing a twin-engine platform (considering the area and what we'll be up against) with a higher payload, range, speed to conduct the required/expected sorties over the sea?

In my opinion the JFT can be used in a supporting role...but I doubt it can be ever be the primary strike aircraft (replacing F-16 for instance).
you forget IL-78 sir
 
The ideal would be a Flanker. A fully capable multi-role platform with the range to traverse over the seas and the payload to pack a punch; we could have the JF-17s work along the coasts, and the Flanker patrol further into sea. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like we will/can secure the platform easily. Having the JH-7 as a bomb truck of sorts is an interesting idea, it would necessitate a symbiotic relationship between the JH-7 and JF-17 though; the two squadrons would definitely have to be in the same wing, and closely coordinate (akin to the Masroor AB force today).

Hi,

The JH7B could easily be used as a BVR truck---and as a Growler type aircraft as well.

They will have to be based in Pasni---farther out---covering the flank---the so called 'dog leg' and with their ability to fly low---they can skim the waves and pop up to deliver their punch from standoff distances---.

We should also agree at this to discuss about the aircraft that are available to us----when we bring in a 'wish list ' aircraft into the discussion---it weakens the discussion and loses it importance---WHEN WE TALK ABOUT AIRCRAFT THAT WE CANNOT GET.

I think the focus from now on wards ought to be on what is available and nothing else.
 
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Introduction of Jf-17 in numbers (with more squadrons in southern command in future) will completely change the scenario in Arabian Sea in respect of Pakistan and India. PAF/PN will be in much better position to execute sea denial and blockage of Persian Gulf especially with the introduction of land based AShM batteries capable of targeting ships in range of 300+ km.

First JF-17 have got better sortie rates because of low serviceability requirements which means that more operations can be launched in defensive or offensive modes. Indian carrier based fleets will be more limited in this respect. They are STOBAR with ski-jumps, ski-jump put more stresses on airframes of jet fighters and increases serviceability and decreases force availability especially in a multi-day intense campaign. Also they have to take-off with half the payload and fuel and than later refuel in air via buddy-buddy air-refuleing which increases operational complexity and reduces range and reduces fighter fleet available for strike or carrier group defence. In an intense campaign that will further reduce availability. PAF on the other hand will be in position to throw more and more sorties if it goes offensive against one or both carriers, difference will be significant.

Mig 29K already have shorter ranges because of lower fuel fractions than comparative fighters. There carrier CAP and strike ranges are already significantly less than Rafale (which can do a carrier CAP at 185 km for 2 hours with three 1250 ltrs tanks with six AAMs) and F-18 E (which can do a carrier CAP at 265 km for 2 hours and 15 minutes with 480 gallon tanks and 4 AAMs) while Mig 29K will be forced to take smaller payloads and will require lot of buddy-buddy re-fuelling to have 100+ km CAPs in access of an hour. Their strike ranges and sortie rates will be significantly reduced as well.

On the other hand Jf-17 has very good fuel fraction on internal fuel and can fly longer and farther than Mig 29K and with 2 drop tanks can easily manage 800+ kms with certain allocations for furballs with mixed sorties, some carrying BVRs for air-superiority to build pressure on carrier fighter fleet and others moving in to finish the job with AShMs. Equipped with CM 400 and C 802 they do not even need to get closer and can off-load their payloads in 200-300 kms range.

No offence or disrespect to indian posters here, but once Jf-17 are deployed in numbers in southern command, Indian carrier groups will have to either operate in deep Indian Ocean or operate within the umbrella of their Land based IAF fighters. Until Indian Navy gets a CATOBAR carrier with fighters capable to take bigger payloads such as Rafale M, I think situation will remain tilted towards Pakistan.

Real good analysis, you raised some really solid points there. I totally agree with you on the point that we need JF-17 in numbers but I am of opinion that only thunder wont be able to do the task. We need a platform that can also stand against an IAF and IN combined aggression. I am talking about a scenario when IAF and IN simultaneously attack Karachi or another of our port city. In that case we will not only be facing just Migs but a mix of Migs and Sukhois backed up by AWACS and heavy surface fleet.

For that I think a combo of JF-17 and Chinese Flankers would be a good choice. And when I say JF-17 I mean block 3 or something near our current MLUed fleet. Though Chinese Flankers at the moment are just a part of my wishlist but keeping in mind our improving relations with Russians, with the help of good diplomacy the job can be done.
 
Introduction of Jf-17 in numbers (with more squadrons in southern command in future) will completely change the scenario in Arabian Sea in respect of Pakistan and India. PAF/PN will be in much better position to execute sea denial and blockage of Persian Gulf especially with the introduction of land based AShM batteries capable of targeting ships in range of 300+ km.

First JF-17 have got better sortie rates because of low serviceability requirements which means that more operations can be launched in defensive or offensive modes. Indian carrier based fleets will be more limited in this respect. They are STOBAR with ski-jumps, ski-jump put more stresses on airframes of jet fighters and increases serviceability and decreases force availability especially in a multi-day intense campaign. Also they have to take-off with half the payload and fuel and than later refuel in air via buddy-buddy air-refuleing which increases operational complexity and reduces range and reduces fighter fleet available for strike or carrier group defence. In an intense campaign that will further reduce availability. PAF on the other hand will be in position to throw more and more sorties if it goes offensive against one or both carriers, difference will be significant.

Mig 29K already have shorter ranges because of lower fuel fractions than comparative fighters. There carrier CAP and strike ranges are already significantly less than Rafale (which can do a carrier CAP at 185 km for 2 hours with three 1250 ltrs tanks with six AAMs) and F-18 E (which can do a carrier CAP at 265 km for 2 hours and 15 minutes with 480 gallon tanks and 4 AAMs) while Mig 29K will be forced to take smaller payloads and will require lot of buddy-buddy re-fuelling to have 100+ km CAPs in access of an hour. Their strike ranges and sortie rates will be significantly reduced as well.

On the other hand Jf-17 has very good fuel fraction on internal fuel and can fly longer and farther than Mig 29K and with 2 drop tanks can easily manage 800+ kms with certain allocations for furballs with mixed sorties, some carrying BVRs for air-superiority to build pressure on carrier fighter fleet and others moving in to finish the job with AShMs. Equipped with CM 400 and C 802 they do not even need to get closer and can off-load their payloads in 200-300 kms range.

No offence or disrespect to indian posters here, but once Jf-17 are deployed in numbers in southern command, Indian carrier groups will have to either operate in deep Indian Ocean or operate within the umbrella of their Land based IAF fighters. Until Indian Navy gets a CATOBAR carrier with fighters capable to take bigger payloads such as Rafale M, I think situation will remain tilted towards Pakistan.

Short comings of Indian Naval Air arm will perhaps be filled in by Su-30MKI. Long range of Su-30 makes it possible to support Naval operations. Our response should be a layered SAM umbrella at the coastal cities comprising PAF assets and PN ships in a fused network. That coupled with coastal AShM and JF-17 C-802/CM-400AKG and SD-10 combo would force IN to stay well beyond 300 km. Add into the mix AIP submarines and IN has an uphill task of enforcing a blockade. There still remains a gap as P-8I needs to be taken care of who otherwise threaten PN submarine fleet. In the absence of aircraft of Su-3x class, this job will fall on F-16/ JF-17. In any case IN will come close to our coasts at their own peril.
 
The ideal would be a Flanker. A fully capable multi-role platform with the range to traverse over the seas and the payload to pack a punch; we could have the JF-17s work along the coasts, and the Flanker patrol further into sea. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like we will/can secure the platform easily. Having the JH-7 as a bomb truck of sorts is an interesting idea, it would necessitate a symbiotic relationship between the JH-7 and JF-17 though; the two squadrons would definitely have to be in the same wing, and closely coordinate (akin to the Masroor AB force today).

I have been regularly visiting and reading your website after finding it on this forum, very good content and information, my respects. But I, respectfully, differ with your opinion. Just putting up a few points of discussion and hopefully will not be taken as an affront.

Before delving in discussion about it, I also want to raise a point about my impression that this forum's users generally believe twin engine jets to have longer ranges and capabilities. They do tend to have higher payloads but make many design compromises and until more recently used to have lower ranges. For example, until latest incarnation of F-15 (with a CFT, US F-16s do not have CFTs), it used to have lower range and loiter time than F-16. F 15A was considered even short legged than earlier F 16A. The same was the case with earlier versions of F-18 etc.

2. Flanker is a superb platform, no doubt about it, but may actually end up as negatives for PAF in long-term. It will be quite improbable that PAF is able to get more than 20-24 Su-35 even if it is able to find funds for it and will certainly result in limiting other projects it wants to pursue. This may look like insignificant but may result in a sort of "strategic hesitation" as was the case in 90s with small number of F-16s we had. Rather than developing tactics and operations to freely employ your top tier platform you end up keeping it "safe" and to be used only if need is utmost, which is usually when you are already in desperate straits.

3. Now that we are talking about dreams and wishes, lets head straight to fantasy land. First about range, Su-35 has excellent combat range but does it beat F-16s with CFT range?

F-16's "wing-up" CFT are lighter at 900 pounds, carries 3050 ltrs providing it more than 2440 kg of fuel. Its fuel fraction is usually 0.43 which it carries a single engine to feed. Su-35's fuel fraction is 0.45 but it has two very hungry engines to feed.

Rather than spending billions of dollars on procuring a new platform which at best will only result in about 2 squadrons strength, why not throw a couple of hundreds millions at developing and testing a CFT for JF-17? If we can just develop a similar set of CFTs like F-16, it will result in a fuel fraction above 0.5. It will add almost negligible drag, and full flight envelop with full Gs will still be supported. And you can even still attach external drop tanks to extend combat range further. But most importantly it frees up weapon stations to carry more weapons payloads and add no penalties for performance envelop during full combat range. Also remember that once you are going to induct about 250 of these, these all 'second' tier fighters with CFTs will have combat ranges which even Su-35 will be jealous of.

JF-17 already are going to support in-flight refuelling, with F-16 like CFTs in ,lets say block 3, why would it not be "game changing"?

4. Now that we are still in the fantasy land, let's say we have those billions of dollars available and also can expand production capacities as needed. Why just have 2 dedicated naval squadrons, why not spend that funds on having many more?

24 Su-35, even not taking stock of service and spares costs, will cost about 1.5 billion $ @ 65 mn. In these funds we'll easily have 80 Jf-17, roughly 6 squadrons dedicated to naval operations. With CFTs and air-refuelling, why would 6 squadrons of JF-17 be less capable in terms of total payloads and range than 2 squadrons of Su-35. Also which force will be able to provide planner much more choices and offensive 'punch'?

Even if we are able to maintain availability of 75% which indians are still trying to achieve with similar Su-30s what this will result in, about 19-20 jets available any time. I have never heard of any Russian jet having service hours per flight hour of below 20. Indian Su-30s as well as Russian and Chinese versions of Flanker are said to have 30+ service hours per flight hours. Air wars/ campaigns are never about the 'brochured' specs of platforms it is all about how much is available at any time and how repetitively it is usable every hour, availability and sortie rates.

2 squadron strength of Su 35 will provide 20 x 0.8 per day = 16 sorties per day
6 squadrons of JF -17 will provide 72 x 1.6 = 115 sorties per day

About JH7, as a growler like platform, it will be very interesting. We really need a growler or F-111 like EW platform if we can some how secure a podded or integrated version of a powerful EW system.
 
I have been regularly visiting and reading your website after finding it on this forum, very good content and information, my respects. But I, respectfully, differ with your opinion. Just putting up a few points of discussion and hopefully will not be taken as an affront.

Before delving in discussion about it, I also want to raise a point about my impression that this forum's users generally believe twin engine jets to have longer ranges and capabilities. They do tend to have higher payloads but make many design compromises and until more recently used to have lower ranges. For example, until latest incarnation of F-15 (with a CFT, US F-16s do not have CFTs), it used to have lower range and loiter time than F-16. F 15A was considered even short legged than earlier F 16A. The same was the case with earlier versions of F-18 etc.

2. Flanker is a superb platform, no doubt about it, but may actually end up as negatives for PAF in long-term. It will be quite improbable that PAF is able to get more than 20-24 Su-35 even if it is able to find funds for it and will certainly result in limiting other projects it wants to pursue. This may look like insignificant but may result in a sort of "strategic hesitation" as was the case in 90s with small number of F-16s we had. Rather than developing tactics and operations to freely employ your top tier platform you end up keeping it "safe" and to be used only if need is utmost, which is usually when you are already in desperate straits.

3. Now that we are talking about dreams and wishes, lets head straight to fantasy land. First about range, Su-35 has excellent combat range but does it beat F-16s with CFT range?

F-16's "wing-up" CFT are lighter at 900 pounds, carries 3050 ltrs providing it more than 2440 kg of fuel. Its fuel fraction is usually 0.43 which it carries a single engine to feed. Su-35's fuel fraction is 0.45 but it has two very hungry engines to feed.

Rather than spending billions of dollars on procuring a new platform which at best will only result in about 2 squadrons strength, why not throw a couple of hundreds millions at developing and testing a CFT for JF-17? If we can just develop a similar set of CFTs like F-16, it will result in a fuel fraction above 0.5. It will add almost negligible drag, and full flight envelop with full Gs will still be supported. And you can even still attach external drop tanks to extend combat range further. But most importantly it frees up weapon stations to carry more weapons payloads and add no penalties for performance envelop during full combat range. Also remember that once you are going to induct about 250 of these, these all 'second' tier fighters with CFTs will have combat ranges which even Su-35 will be jealous of.

JF-17 already are going to support in-flight refuelling, with F-16 like CFTs in ,lets say block 3, why would it not be "game changing"?

4. Now that we are still in the fantasy land, let's say we have those billions of dollars available and also can expand production capacities as needed. Why just have 2 dedicated naval squadrons, why not spend that funds on having many more?

24 Su-35, even not taking stock of service and spares costs, will cost about 1.5 billion $ @ 65 mn. In these funds we'll easily have 80 Jf-17, roughly 6 squadrons dedicated to naval operations. With CFTs and air-refuelling, why would 6 squadrons of JF-17 be less capable in terms of total payloads and range than 2 squadrons of Su-35. Also which force will be able to provide planner much more choices and offensive 'punch'?

Even if we are able to maintain availability of 75% which indians are still trying to achieve with similar Su-30s what this will result in, about 19-20 jets available any time. I have never heard of any Russian jet having service hours per flight hour of below 20. Indian Su-30s as well as Russian and Chinese versions of Flanker are said to have 30+ service hours per flight hours. Air wars/ campaigns are never about the 'brochured' specs of platforms it is all about how much is available at any time and how repetitively it is usable every hour, availability and sortie rates.

2 squadron strength of Su 35 will provide 20 x 0.8 per day = 16 sorties per day
6 squadrons of JF -17 will provide 72 x 1.6 = 115 sorties per day

About JH7, as a growler like platform, it will be very interesting. We really need a growler or F-111 like EW platform if we can some how secure a podded or integrated version of a powerful EW system.
I agree. All things considered, the PAF will achieve far more flexibility with a platform it can readily support (against all cost, technical, and political issues) than it can with a really nice import.

The $1.5bn to $2bn we spend on an imported fighter, we can spend on (1) making the JF-17 as good as possible and (2) enabling ourselves to get FC-31.

Even $1bn on the JF-17 offers a lot of latitude, we can get a quantitatively high number of aircraft equipped with high quality and high performance radars, avionics, and weapons. Combined with the high operational rate and flexibility to dispose (since we'd have no trouble replacing), makes the Thunder an asset and credible threat (all things accounted for).

In the long-term, we can have the FC-31 follow in tandem and have it operate alongside late block JF-17s.
 
Today at 7:19 AM#52

Today at 7:42 AM#53

Hi,

Two excellent posts---thank you very much. @Ghazi786 brought out some excellent points about turn around and sortie rate.

The issue here is that with the JF17's---I will have to fight most of the battle in my backyard---and it will be very difficult to maintain that sortie rate against standoff weapons.

The thing is that you cannot go into a battle with unpredictability---you have to have something---even just for show---a few in numbers that are a known to compete against the enemy mano a mano and come out ahead.

With those in place---you can then expect your other assets to make the break.

The dog leg---that is a major concern of the paf---iaf flying perpendicular to their border over the ocean then making aquick right turn and come up over gwadar pasni and then strike karachi from behind.

Pakistan needs to have assets to do the same to india----. That is where the JH7B comes into play. It has longer legs than the J11, SU30, SU35, J16 and can carry a heavier load---.

So if this aircraft travels the reverse dog leg---fly straight down from pasni gwadar air space---keeping around 500 miles away from the indian border---make a quick left turn and release its standoff weapons from the standoff distance at mumbai and surrounding areas---that would be the game change.

Until and unless paf cannot hit ground targets with a strike aircraft---india would be strutting around---.

Paf must have an asset that can hit mumbai thru an aircraft strike---we will see then how often they threaten us with war.

Mumbai coastline is the achilles heal of india and it needs to feel the sharp edge of the knife.

The problem I have with the JF17 and current mentality of the Paf is that they want to contain the iaf on pakistani grounds---thus submitting the pakistan space for destruction---this strategy will work well if you can also reach out at an opportune monet and strike deep.


Now---as for investing in the JF17----invest 50-100 million dollars in it and make it 20% bigger to carry loads around 7500 KG's and 8BVR's and a longer loiter time---and also keep this current sized model of JF17 as well.

So---you have 2 lines working for you.

map-of-india-pakistan.gif
 
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Today at 7:19 AM#52

Today at 7:42 AM#53

Hi,

Two excellent posts---thank you very much. Ghazi brought out some excellent points about turn around and sortie rate.

The issue here is that with the JF17's---I will have to fight most of the battle in my backyard---and it will be very difficult to maintain that sortie rate against standoff weapons.

The thing is that you cannot go into a battle with unpredictability---you have to have something---even just for show---a few in numbers that are a known to compete against the enemy mano a mano and come out ahead.

With those in place---you can then expect your other assets to make the break.

The dog leg---that is a major concern of the paf---iaf flying perpendicular to their border over the ocean then making aquick right turn and come up over gwadar pasni and then strike karachi from behind.

Pakistan needs to have assets to do the same to india----. That is where the JH7B comes into play. It has longer legs than the J11, SU30, SU35, J16 and can carry a heavier load---.

So if this aircraft travels the reverse dog leg---fly straight down from pasni gwadar air space---keeping around 500 miles away from the indian border---make a quick left turn and release its standoff weapons from the standoff distance at mumbai and surrounding areas---that would be the game change.

Until and unless paf cannot hit ground targets with a strike aircraft---india would be strutting around---.

Paf must have an asset that can hit mumbai thru an aircraft strike---we will see then how often they threaten us with war.

Mumbai coastline is the achilles heal of india and it needs to feel the sharp edge of the knife.

The problem I have with the JF17 and current mentality of the Paf is that they want to contain the iaf on pakistani grounds---thus submitting the pakistan space for destruction---this strategy will work well if you can also reach out at an opportune monet and strike deep.


Now---as for investing in the JF17----invest 50-100 million dollars in it and make it 20% bigger to carry loads around 7500 KG's and 8BVR's and a longer loiter time---and also keep this current sized model of JF17 as well.

So---you have 2 lines working for you.

View attachment 301846
Agreed. If the JH-7A/B the PAF can basically have assets capable of deploying a heavyweight munitions load without necessarily entering into India. We can target their northwest operating theatre right from the onset, and it would be better if we can also invest in further developing the Ra'ad, i.e. a longer range version with the ability to carry guided sub-munitions (which we can try on Indian dockyards, airfields, armoured formations, etc).

As for JF-17. I think we should consider @ghazi768's suggestion, i.e. CFT. I think in terms of medium-weight fighters, we ought to double-down on the FC-31, especially in the sense of getting Shenyang to design a maneuverable air-to-air design (with less emphasis on being 'stealthy' - especially in an age with UHF/VHF radars).

In the long-term, we can have FC-31 operate with JH-7A/B in the maritime theatre with ease.
 
Agreed. If the JH-7A/B the PAF can basically have assets capable of deploying a heavyweight munitions load without necessarily entering into India. We can target their northwest operating theatre right from the onset, and it would be better if we can also invest in further developing the Ra'ad, i.e. a longer range version with the ability to carry guided sub-munitions (which we can try on Indian dockyards, airfields, armoured formations, etc).

As for JF-17. I think we should consider @ghazi768's suggestion, i.e. CFT. I think in terms of medium-weight fighters, we ought to double-down on the FC-31, especially in the sense of getting Shenyang to design a maneuverable air-to-air design (with less emphasis on being 'stealthy' - especially in an age with UHF/VHF radars).

In the long-term, we can have FC-31 operate with JH-7A/B in the maritime theatre with ease.

Hi,

The hidden fact is that both the F22 and the F35 are based to fight with their complimentary assets AS WELL---or in other words---they will direct the fight thru their assets.

The complimentary assets maybe a B1---BVR truck---or a B52 with standoff weapons etc.

So---as you proceed towards the stealth 5th gen----your utility of complimentary aircraft increases as to be used as a FORCE MULTIPLIER.

Now coming down to the high sortie rate of the JF17 and the low sortie rate of the SU30----.

What is not being understood and not explained---is the MULTIPLIER EFFECT of the strike from a heavy---like in boxing terms---any heavy weight can knock out any other heavy weight or lesser weights with ONE PUNCH---.

Such is not the case with light weights---they don't have that one punch knock out capability.

Now---if your aircraft can carry twice the weight---it is supposedly going to do massive damage when it strikes----a difference being like shot at by a 5.56 or by a .338.

Remember simple physics-----you have 4 objects---each a 500 lbs---travelling at 30 mph---first one hits a stationary object---and then a second hits the same stationary object-----then the third and the the fourth.

Otoh---you have a 2000lb object travelling at 30 mph hitting the similar object. You will find out that one crushing blow from the 2000 lb object would have done more damage to the object than 4 blows from a 500 lb object---even though overall force was the same.

What that means is that the heavier object has enough force to cross over the threshold of the structural integrity of the object being hit.

So---the bottomline is that the 100 heavy aircraft will do more damage in one sortie than the lighter aircraft in one sortie and that damage would be so debilitating that the overall performance and sortie rate of the smaller aircraft would drop at an alarming rate significantly.

The most important thing to remember is that there are people---ie humans flying the aircraft----and their emotion also overcome their abilities---in order for them to perform at their best---they have to see the rewards---if they don't and they are certain that they are flying into definite death---their performance will suffer.
 
PAF mind set was clear when it devised thunder, something it can realistically afford..now it realizes that it cannot even afford the thunder..

fact is in the face of 800+ IAF PAF atleast needs 300-400 fighters for "minimum deterrence"
if paf plan was f-16 thunder mix..i dont see PAF even affording that in the current scenario
 
PAF mind set was clear when it devised thunder, something it can realistically afford..now it realizes that it cannot even afford the thunder..

fact is in the face of 800+ IAF PAF atleast needs 300-400 fighters for "minimum deterrence"
if paf plan was f-16 thunder mix..i dont see PAF even affording that in the current scenario
What makes you say that
 
PAF mind set was clear when it devised thunder, something it can realistically afford..now it realizes that it cannot even afford the thunder..

fact is in the face of 800+ IAF PAF atleast needs 300-400 fighters for "minimum deterrence"
if paf plan was f-16 thunder mix..i dont see PAF even affording that in the current scenario


Hi,

That has happened thru BAD PLANNING---BAD MANAGEMENT---. Just like you start saving a little by a little when you don't make a lot---same way---you must buy a little by a little when you cannot afford a lot.

That is where the paf has failed miserably---. Only between 2002 and 2005 we had the cash to buy 72 F16's or 50 Rafales---or 60 Mirage 2 k's.

Posters say that the maintenance on the Rafales & Mirage 2K's is heavy---very heavy---.

So---I am going to share with you KID'S the Car salesman's tip for doing the thing right---so that the PROGRESS IS MADE AT ALL TIMES.

So---instead of buying 50 rafels or 60 M2k----buy 40 rafales or 50 M2k's.

The 650---750 million dollars that you have----put it in a 10 years fixed deposit income scheme---.

At 6% interest rate---what would that bring--$36 million a year---would that have sufficed to do the yearly upkeep of 42 Rafales / 50 Mirage2k9's

See---it was the dumbest & the most stupidest and & the most brainless thing to do----to not buy these aircraft because the maintenance and operating costs were too high----.

Remember----for astronomical problems---there are always simple solutions----simple so simple that they are simple stupid.

The idiots---these moron---these dumb fcks had cash for the 72 F16's---. These dumbo gave away that cash to charity from where it was completely stolen.

The last thing a warrior does is to give away its funds to procure a weapon for charity----they would sell their houses and properties to buy weapons----and our morons just give it away when a monster is lurking at our doors.

With all this hold up and indecision----we got nothing---because like EVERY PAKISTANI here---WE TALK ABOUT PROBLEMS----every old fa-rt talks about maintenance is expensive---price is expensive---utility is expensive----but no one has the brains to TALK ABOUT SOLUTIONS.

As a nation---that is your INHERENT problem----because you do not know how to find solutions---you people are clueless what the TERM " SOLUTIONS " is.

@Khafee @Indus Falcon @Irfan Baloch
 
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On the other hand Jf-17 has very good fuel fraction on internal fuel and can fly longer and farther than Mig 29K and with 2
Absurd Argument Do you Have Technical Data To Back you Claim

The Internal Fuel Capacity of Jf-17 is Mere 2,350 kg

On other Hand Mig-29K Has Internal Fuel Of 4560 Kg

I Don't Know Why Mods Give Positive rating Without Verifying It Technically



Also Which ASHM will Take out carrier From 300Km Really Do you think It Wouldn't Be a Nightmare For USN Carrier Group.Its Not technically Viable What you just stated Your Arguments Has Less Technical arguments To Hold ground
 

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