Japanese and South Korean fighter planes

[kalu_miah]

No, we are not!

You simply do not understand that aircraft engines is one of the most complex technology that is around.

It is an order of magnitude more difficult to make aircraft engines than either airframe or avionics.

Brazil has one of the largest civilian aircraft industries, after the US and EU, and still has to import foreign engines. If it was not too difficult then Brazil would be making it's own engines.

Yes, Japan/Korea could make engines but it would take many decades before they had good, reliable engines that they could use.

You must appreciate that even though a country is technologically advanced in many areas, then that does not mean that it would have too much of an advantage if it decides to start in a new field that it has zero experience in. As an example you can refer to the South Korea rocket failure - even India that is far more technologically inferior in general has put dozens of satellites in orbit using it's indigenous rockets.

Any country that has not mastered aircraft engine technology, and engine technology in general, cannot become a world power. It is interesting that nearly all 5 permanent members of the UN Security Council can now make aircraft engines, with China still not fully there yet.

What takes decades for China or India will not take many decades for Japan and Korea, there is fundamental difference between socio-economic advancements between all these nations, that is where both of you are mistaken, provided they can make the right partnerships, for finance with cash rich nations and for market with small nations around the world. Lets agree to disagree, unless you have some other points to discuss.

 

[xunzi]

What takes decades for China or India will not take many decades for Japan and Korea, there is fundamental difference between socio-economic advancements between all these nations, that is where both of you are mistaken, provided they can make the right partnerships, for finance with cash rich nations and for market with small nations around the world. Lets agree to disagree, unless you have some other points to discuss.

I don't think you understand the art of making engine. Socio-economic development means very little in developing low-bypass turbofan jet engine. China dominated every math/physics competition and is a top 3 in R&D spending with a million army of engineers and scientists and still haven't fully produce a reliable engine for a 5th gen aircraft for years.

The country with the most impressive record to in narrowing the western technological gap to these day is China. China is the fastest country to do it because we have an enormous human resources.

The annual engineering graduation of China is equivalent of the whole Sk population.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Any country that has not mastered aircraft engine technology, and engine technology in general, cannot become a world power. It is interesting that nearly all 5 permanent members of the UN Security Council can now make aircraft engines, with China still not fully there yet.

Only 3 countries make the 12+ tons thrust engine for the aircraft fighter; USA, Russia, China.

I don't think you understand the art of making engine. Socio-economic development means very little in developing low-bypass turbofan jet engine. China dominated every math/physics competition and is a top 3 in R&D spending with a million army of engineers and scientists and still haven't fully produce a reliable engine for a 5th gen aircraft for years.

The country with the most impressive record to in narrowing the western technological gap to these day is China. China is the fastest country to do it because we have an enormous human resources.

The annual engineering graduation of China is equivalent of the whole Sk population.

The only country now can produce the reliable 5th gen jet engine is USA, and Japan and SK would be lucky to be able to independently produce their 4th gen jet engine by the end of this decade.

 

[xunzi]

Only 3 countries make the 12+ tons thrust engine for the aircraft fighter; USA, Russia, China.



The only country now can produce the reliable 5th gen jet engine is USA, and Japan and SK would be lucky to be able to independently produce their 4th gen jet engine by the end of this decade.

Exactly, this is why I don't understand why kalu_miah doesn't appreciate the art of making turbofan engine. Turbofan engine is truly a "state of the art" concept. Only those with experience, research, and a **** load of time spent on testing can fully master it. If SK had a hard time producing rocket, then they have limit chance of mastering a 20 tons engine in a 20 years time frame. According to most engine experts, the standard timeframe of mastering turbofan engine is about 3 decades. I'm not sure what SK/JP have with making their own engine in the past but the average time starting from scratch, it would take them at least 3 decades.

 

[kalu_miah]

I don't think you understand the art of making engine. Socio-economic development means very little in developing low-bypass turbofan jet engine. China dominated every math/physics competition and is a top 3 in R&D spending with a million army of engineers and scientists and still haven't fully produce a reliable engine for a 5th gen aircraft for years.

The country with the most impressive record to in narrowing the western technological gap to these day is China. China is the fastest country to do it because we have an enormous human resources.

The annual engineering graduation of China is equivalent of the whole Sk population.

Even if it takes a decade or two, the smaller nations should and I believe will support Japan or Korea or Turkey to develop engines, jointly if possible, because the countries that currently produce engines, the technology is always selectively available and best ones are never available.

Korea and Turkey are not currently going for immediate engine development, they know it is beyond their ability, KAI-KFX and TAI-TFX are mainly for air frame, avionics and weapons system development. They were planning to use US or European engines from the start.

Japanese ATD-X (Shinshin) program does include a plan to use indigenous engine, IHI XF5-1:

http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/research/gaibuhyouka/pdf/XF5-H21.pdf
The engine in this pdf file has thrust of around 50 kN, which is similar to Snecma M88 of France used in Rafale.

Another variant of this turbo-fan:
IHI Corporation F7 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
is being used in this Maritime Patrol Aircraft Kawasaki P-1, entirely made in Japan:
Kawasaki P-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

test flight of test model XP-1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dQIxiXNilk

production model P-1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwgAcuRn-DU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUGt8FbyxM8

Now all of this nothing compared to even China, let alone Russia, Western Europe or USA, but its a good start and it shows that they have potential, if they can line up support from other nations, of course after getting rid of their moronic weapons export restriction in their constitution.

 

[kalu_miah]

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=1084

 

[HariPrasad]

KAI Publishes Small KF-X Concept

KAI Publishes Small KF-X Concept
By Bradley Perrett, Bill Sweetman
Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology

July 22, 2013
Credit: KAI
Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) has published a drawing of a moderately stealthy fighter concept based on its T-50 series of supersonic trainers and light-attack aircraft. The concept aircraft is far smaller and less ambitious than the all-new, twin-engine KF-X designs promoted by the Agency for Defense Development, the leading proponent of building an indigenous South Korea fighter.

Some South Korean industry officials doubt that the country has the technical resources to build the KF-X, especially if major civil aerospace programs go ahead at the same time; a 90-seat turboprop airliner is also proposed. But a KF-X derived from a current type would demand less engineering and may benefit from stronger pricing by avoiding competition with the Lockheed Martin F-35, although Saab is already in the market for advanced but moderately sized fighters with its Gripen E/F.

The T-50 and its FA-50 light fighter derivative are themselves based on the F-16 and were developed with help from Lockheed Martin, but the stealthy concept, called KF-X-E, departs from the F-16 planform used for the earlier aircraft. Some wing and fuselage edges are parallel, and the trailing edges of the main and tail planes are swept forward. The fuselage sides have chines. Nose volume of the KF-X-E appears to be small, limiting the size of the radar antenna, but the airframe seems to have more volume overall than the T-50, offering more space for internal fuel and thereby minimizing the need for external tanks and their radar reflections.

Retention of the single tail on the KF-X-E is emblematic of the limited ambition of the designers, who appear to have aimed at achieving a level of stealth above that of the Eurofighter Typhoon and Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet but well below that of the Lockheed Martin F-22 and F-35. The latter two, like other stealth aircraft, have canted twin tail fins.

Similarly, the air inlets of the KF-X-E have boundary-layer diverters; recent stealth aircraft handle the boundary layer with aerodynamic shaping and no diverters. The KF-X-E may be too small for internal weapons stowage. No engine details are known, but South Korea may want to replace the T-50's General Electric F404, whose future application appears limited to the T-50 series, with another probably more powerful type. Candidates would include the GE F414 and Eurojet EJ200.

The winner of the separate F-X Phase 3 competition for 60 fighters—Lockheed Martin, Boeing or Eurofighter—is expected to support KF-X development. Each manufacturer has proposed a design. Lockheed Martin's could conceivably be similar to but a little larger than the KF-X-E by introducing stealth features into the design of the F-16. The result would still be a fighter well-differentiated from the F-35.

A key issue in developing the KF-X-E might be obtaining permission from Lockheed Martin, which presumably has intellectual property in the T-50 design or at least contractual rights to ensure that it does not become an F-16 competitor. Another obstacle is that the South Korean air force prefers twin-engine aircraft for the medium-fighter category that the KF-X would fill.

KAI did not respond to a request for further information about the KF-X-E.

Comments:

SlowMan
3:45 PM on 7/24/2013
The KFX-E was sort of an internal "worst-case" scenario study for KAI in 2012, a situation in which KAI would be forced to "go-alone" due to political/funding circumstances, in which case the easiest route to take would be to modify what they were familiar with, the F/A-50. Such would be the case of an F-35 win, because Lockheed Martin was very much opposed to the KFX program and high F-35 prices would drain funding away from the KFX program.

This option is NOT ON THE TABLE at the moment and the plan is still for a twin-engine jet and has the ROKAF and parliamentary backing. Boeing is the likely KFX engineering partner because Boeing's Silent Eagle (F15-SE) is expected to win the F-X III bidding after the government decided to resume the suspended price bidding based on vendor inputs. According to the DAPA's bidding rule clarification, they would only put bids on budget on yes/no votes at the selection committee and not even bother with bids over the budget.

Boeing is said to be merely $230 million above the budget at the last bidding and has gone to the press to claim that they could close this gap if the bidding was to resume, while the USAF(F-35)'s non-negotiable FMS price was $1.5 billion over budget and was virtually disqualified under the DAPA's selection guidance. As for the Eurofighter Consortium, the exact pricing was not known but the people in knowledge was complaining of a very high price, leaving Boeing as the sole vendor with a possibility of hitting the budget.

Score: 0 X-Planes
9:11 AM on 7/25/2013
That's quite a clever design, just take an F-16 (or a T-50) and reconfigure the airframe for reduced radar cross section. It would be effective, small, nimble, and shouldn't cost too much more than an F-16. This is originally what I thought the JSF was supposed to be, a cheap but effective alternative to F-22 for export.

Looks Identical to new Desigh of AMCA except the wings. If we develop single engine LCA based on AMCA desigh, it will look like this.

 

[kalu_miah]

http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/research/gaibuhyouka/pdf/XF5-H21.pdf

Google translator:

"Research and demonstration engine "
Overview of external evaluation Committee on
1 evaluated item
Research demonstration engine ( test house at the end )
( Planning : Technical Research Division aviation equipment Laboratory Systems Research Department engine Systems Laboratory )
2 Rating subject matter
With afterburner jet engine technology
3 Overview of business
(1) Purpose of Research
Essential afterburner with turbo fan engine as propulsion supersonic aircraft of the future
Be to establish a technology infrastructure that enables the domestic production of emissions , to demonstrate the technology level .
( 2 ) R & D line table
7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
And ( 3 ) demonstration engine
See Annex 1
Appearance (4 ) demonstration engine
See Attachment 2
4 Overview of external evaluation committee
March 19 , 2009 : ( 1 ) Schedules and place
Technical Research and Development Institute Headquarters conference room
( . Titles omitted Committee held at the time , the job title in alphabetical order) ( 2 ) Evaluation Committee
(Chairman ) Shojiro Kaji ( Teikyo University of Science and Technology Aerospace Engineering Professor )
*Shigeru Hayashi ( National Institute of Aerospace Exploration Agency Aviation Program Group
Engine Team Team Leader )
Nimura Hisao ( National Institute of Aerospace Exploration Agency Aviation Program Group
Engine Team Planning Manager )

Saburo Yuasa ( Tokyo Metropolitan University, Graduate School of System Design , Graduate School of aerospace systems
System engineering vocational Professor )
( 3 ) presenter : Technical Research Division
Aviation equipment Laboratory Systems Research Department
Engine Systems Laboratory Chief Akagi Masahiro
Study (4) Outline of afterburner
See Attachment 3
Where ( 5 ) discussions and questions gathered
· (The length , and combustion efficiency , weight reduction , etc. ) for the design of the afterburner
· For element test of the afterburner
· For combustion oscillation of afterburner
And improvement of the compressor for the ( structure and material )
· For adiabatic efficiency of the turbine
Engine performance for high altitude ( over- time )
· For effective use of future technology and data
Comments (6 ) received , proposals
- Base technology of supersonic aircraft for the afterburner with turbofan engine development of five tons thrust class
Can be evaluated is that you have established the .
· Establish a lightweight design technology limitations and performance design , optimization , direction of thrust-to-weight ratio further
I expect the above .
- Seems to be specific considerations for quietness and even the supersonic engine .
, As well as published in the conference presentation , etc. findings , from the point of view of technology inheritance , data and technology
I want you to be able to effectively use the data .
Summary of 5 External Review Committee
The goal of thrust-to-weight ratio and thrust has been achieved , the Incident of performance test also the way the
Cause is examined , measures are taken properly , the afterburner with a turbofan engine
I determined that the technology base could be established . Fan ( 3 -stage ) compressor ( 6 stage ) combustor high pressure turbine ( 1 stage ) low-pressure turbine ( 1 stage )
About 0.6m
Demonstrated yen

 

[flamer84]

Only 3 countries make the 12+ tons thrust engine for the aircraft fighter; USA, Russia, China.

EF and Rafale have their own european made engines,EJ2000 and Snecma M88 while China is still struggling and importing russian engines.China is not in the select club with USA,Russia and western european consortiums.

 

[kalu_miah]

EF and Rafale have their own european made engines,EJ2000 and Snecma M88 while China is still struggling and importing russian engines.China is not in the select club with USA,Russia and western european consortiums.

Its actually EJ 200:
Eurojet EJ200 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[flamer84]

Its actually EJ 200:
Eurojet EJ200 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ah,yes,sry...Doesn't change the point though.

 

[kalu_miah]

Ah,yes,sry...Doesn't change the point though.

No it does not, its a good point. I was thinking about saying the same, but I didn't exactly know which ones are being produced in Europe, so thanks for your post. Snecma 88 used in Rafale is very similar in thrust to the Japanese engine XF5-1, 50 kN and EJ200 is more powerful. For TAI TF-X, the planned Turkish 5th gen. fighter, they plan to use EJ230, a more enhanced version of the EJ200.

 

[flamer84]

No it does not, its a good point. I was thinking about saying the same, but I didn't exactly know which ones are being produced in Europe, so thanks for your post. Snecma 88 used in Rafale is very similar in thrust to the Japanese engine XF5-1, 50 kN and EJ200 is more powerful. For TAI TF-X, the planned Turkish 5th gen. fighter, they plan to use EJ230, a more enhanced version of the EJ200.

I think that the EF allready uses (or there are plans in the immediate future) an upgraded EJ200 but the ideea is that both these european planes use engines 100% made in Europe (UK and France).The Gripen uses an american engine though,or better said an engine based on an american model.If the turks work with Saab wouldn't they use an american engine to?

 

[kalu_miah]

I think that the EF allready uses (or there are plans in the immediate future) an upgraded EJ200 but the ideea is that both these european planes use engines 100% made in Europe (UK and France).The Gripen uses an american engine though,or better said an engine based on an american model.If the turks work with Saab wouldn't they use an american engine to?

Future Turkish Fighter Concepts Revealed at IDEF 13 | Aviation International News

TF-X is scheduled to fly in 2023, with initial operational capability planned before the end of the decade. It is due to serve alongside the Lockheed Martin F-35. For the single-engine aircraft, Turkey reportedly hoped to acquire the Pratt & Whitney F135 engine for commonality with the F-35, but the U.S. is apparently reluctant to agree. Instead, it is believed that the intended powerplant would be the General Electric F110-GE-132 that powers the Block 60 F-16. For the twin-engine concepts the intended powerplant could be Eurojet’s EJ230, an up-rated version of the EJ200 that powers the Eurofighter Typhoon. However, this advanced engine has not yet been developed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TFX_(Turkey)

Partnership with Saab AB

During a State visit of the President of Turkey to Sweden on the 13th of March 2013, Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii A.Ş (Turkish Aerospace Industries, TAI) signed an Agreement with Sweden's SAAB which stipulates as follows:[4][5][13][14]
SAAB will provide technological design assistance for Turkey's TF-X program;
TAI has the option to Purchase SAAB's Fighter Jet design unit.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tu...-jets.aspx?pageID=238&nID=43867&NewsCatID=374

 

[T-123456]

So China cant develope a decent engine huh?
To be fair,most are licence build but there are a couple of indigenous ones.
Im sure their engine will be ready soon,with the experience they have.
List of Chinese aircraft engines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is very interesting,you should check it out,
China SignPost 39 China Tactical Aircraft Jet Engine Deep Dive 20110626