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Featured Inside Pervez Hoodbhoy’s Classroom

I am truly humbled and honored to be on this forum among some of the more intellectually gifted among us.

The reductionist thinking of liberal extremists / militant leftists like Hoodhboy betray all norms of intellectual tolerance and progress. Their views and approaches are just as tyrannical and authoritative as the conservative extreme that they claim to despise. They take highly complex socio-economic (and even political) issues and boil all faults down to organized religion. The real problem is that they live in a country where they can't openly announce and promote their atheism. Therefore, they're forced to take the more convoluted route to the same destination: brainwashing kids that the problem with the universe is nothing except Islam and other organized faiths. Pathetic pieces of shit.

Same here sir, I am not really known for my virtue of tolerance to stupids or stupidity, been here for almost one and a half year and still going about "ball park" two posts a day compared to many who become "elite members" in few months. An honor knowing you sir.

Anyways, Romanticizing the western democracy/socialism and atheism these people in a way accept their lack of understanding of Islam itself. To them ever evil in the universe starts and ends with Pakistan, Islam and Army.

I have faith with absolute certainty that if someone studies Islam, the Islam of Prophet Muhammad PBUH not that of any subsequent interpreter one can only accept Islam as a deen, Islam is not a religion its a deen, religion is only a set of beliefs and rituals while deen is a way of life.

When they talk of civil rights they forget to admit that unfortunately local Govt have only been functioning during the eras of dictators in Pakistan, it was a dictator (although I detest him and his predecessor dictator) who had the courage to allow media channels in Pakistan besides the garbage of PTV. They would find every excuse to exploit and publicize a rape case in Pakistan but they will always be silent on gross human rights violation in their masters countries including the USA.

To them west is perfect but have they ever highlighted the horrors of debt traps of those perfect societies, where human are working to keep feeding the rich leeches through debt. They think Hollywood or the sparkling lights or the shopping plazas are the mark of HDI, they have no idea of dark side of west.

If they are so honest in their approach why don't they lead by example, start an organization/business where their ideals are implemented 100%. Mr. Edhi did, Dr Pfao did. or they can easily immigrate to country of their choice.

I mean its so easy to criticize but difficult to do. Prophet PBUH before he started preaching he demonstrated practically about truth, honor and honesty for 4 decades.

These two bit intellectuals BS, but in way I am happy that they are there, dissenters are the mark of strength not a weakness. People should be allowed to express themselves freely, because if expression is suppressed it always leads to violence/extremism and revolutions. Consider what is happening in Mideast, why many think its a ticking time bomb. How much freedom of expression is freedom and where it becomes a precursor to violence/instability is open for discussion.

You know post 9/11 and the organized propaganda against Islam/Muslims and the resultant Islamophobia people in the west started taking an interest in Islam and there have been more converts to Islam in the last 15 years than there have been in the last 50 years.:-)
 
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Don't agree with his line of thinking but do not want him silenced either. Islam flourished when Muslims societies were open to philosophical debates. And it withered when we locked our iman inside mosques where no one is allowed to talk about it.

As as Muslim, Alhamdulillah, I have enough faith in my beliefs and these debates do not shake my core. It is these kind of debates that made my beliefs stronger.
Its not just about you many weak believers also exist
 
Hoodbhoy's goal of some kind of secular nationalism is in itself not a terrible idea, but his approach towards it was destined to fail and, instead of building a broader coalition in support, has only served to vitiate the atmosphere and give additional ammunition to the much larger opposition against liberalism and secular nationalism.

Marium Chughtai, in her recent debate with Hoodbhoy, correctly pointed out to him that his approach and ideology (separation of State and religion) necessitated a constitutional level approach rather than this nitpicking over policy and criticism of everything under the sun in Pakistan.

Hoodbhoy isn't the only one with this problem - I have pleaded multiple times with Pakistani liberals, in person and in debates on various platforms, to halt their current trajectory which pits them against Pakistan's constitution, the conservative nature of Pakistani society AND the military. They need to build partnerships with the power centers and build support for the changes they want. Take an incremental approach to change - focus on equality and justice, understand the need to leverage Islamic principles of equality, justice and freedom of religion to enact change, both legislative and societal, because whether we remain the 'Islamic Republic of Pakistan' or just the 'Republic of Pakistan' is irrelevant.

Just look at what is occurring in India, despite it's 'secular' label.

This rampage against Islam, the country's ideology and its power centers has done little more than sharpen the divide and harden positions on both sides and isolate the Pakistani left. The little leverage and voice they have right now is because of their common cause (against the PTI and Army) with two highly loathed political parties in Pakistan, the PPP and PMLN, and every disaster in Sindh under the rule of the PPP just discredits them and their positions even further.

Pakistan's liberal/leftist elite is tiny. They need to learn to function with ALL power centers rather than banking on one or two parties where the leadership makes the right noises once in a while whilst carrying an enormous amount of baggage which will prevent them from even enacting meaningful change.

The changes being pursued need broad based support from all sections of Pakistan. Supporting the PPP while making an enemy of the military, the PTI (currently the largest and most popular political party in Pakistan), conservative sections of Pakistani society and nationalists is no way to build a broad based coalition.
 
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Let people speak.
Isn't that precisely what the author in the OP has done?

Should criticism only be the domain of Pakistan's liberal/leftist elite?

Is Hoodbhoy allowed to call an accomplished scholar, Dr. Mariam Chughtai, a 'Fasadi' and liken her to the TTP, when she calmly demolishes his arguments against the new Single National Curriculum, but others aren't allowed to take Hoodbhoy to task in a civil and factual manner as done in the OP?
 
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Put aside everything else being discussed here. Just imagine how many young generations "Hood Bhoi" and the likes of him have poisoned ever since they started their sinister agenda under the garb of "educators".

We are a country based on a unique narrative of two nation theory. Nothing divides us unless we abandon it. It is safe to say that since late 80's these demons have done their work well and entrenched themselves deep in our society. But its a joy when just a drama like Diriliş Ertuğrul single handedly destroys their decades old work.
 
I have pleaded multiple times with Pakistani liberals, in person and in debates on various platforms, to halt their current trajectory which pits them against Pakistan's constitution, the conservative nature of Pakistani society AND the military. They need to build partnerships with the power centers and build support for the changes they want. Take an incremental approach to change - focus on equality and justice, understand the need to leverage Islamic principles of equality, justice and freedom of religion to enact change, both legislative and societal, because whether we remain the 'Islamic Republic of Pakistan' or just the 'Republic of Pakistan' is irrelevant.

That is good advice indeed. It is high time for everyone to recognize conservative nature of the constitution, society and the military, and the consequences thereof. Change, if it ever comes, as you rightly point out, must come slowly in order to be accepted by society.
 
I always find it amusing that people lose their minds over Hoodboy, who probably has done little to no damage to Pakistan's so called "Islamic values", but will probably not give a single thought to the mullahs which have actually destroyed Pakistani society.
 
Isn't that precisely what the author in the OP has done?

Should criticism only be the domain of Pakistan's liberal/leftist elite?

Is Hoodbhoy allowed to call an accomplished scholar, Dr. Mariam Chughtai, a 'Fasadi' and likening her to the TTP, when she calmly demolishes his arguments against the new Single National Curriculum but others aren't allowed to take Hoodbhoy to task in a civil and factual manner as done in the OP?
No Brother i am not advocating that OP should stop posting his thoughts regarding criticizing extreme leftists.
But the problem is, In Pakistan, People associated with these extremist Right wing mindset have the tendency to murder and permanently silence people in the name of Islam. They don't just "Talk", They don't just "Present their Opinion". They take up arms, demand our lands, kill our children, kill our soldiers policemen etc.
And criticize Hoodboy is not the problem. I don't know who this person is in depth. neither he holds any influence in our country as far as i know. I am only concerned with this writing style, of promulgating agenda of supporting people like abdul aziz and TTP in disguise of "Defending Islam" and "Criticizing Liberals"
To summarize it all. We don't need this Fundamentalist Fasadi version of Faith these people want to impose on us. We are not Atheists, We are all Muslims. We don't care what some Extreme Leftists have to say. Our Parents have taught us well what our values are. some random professor cannot influence us with his butter talks. But we don't want this Gun down culture in our country.
Yes we disagree with these Extreme Leftists but they don't come with guns to impose what they believe on us. Neither do they Shoot our soldiers, Policemen, Politicians. I am confident my children will never become one of them as i have always tried my best to follow the path that our prophet taught us and equip my children with sufficient guidance to counter them.
But i don't need there fasadi Nut heads whose sisters openly release videos to call support of DAESH to Protect them.
Disguising In the veil of Islam to further own agendas is the most pathetic thing on earth. Claiming to be defender of Islam. Never utter a word against profiteers, Injustice, Law and Order, Equal distribution of wealth, Social Harmony etc the real core values of Islam.
Peace be upon you.
 
Hoodbhoy's goal of some kind of secular nationalism is in itself not a terrible idea, but his approach towards it was destined to fail and, instead of building a broader coalition in support, has only served to vitiate the atmosphere and give additional ammunition to the much larger opposition against liberalism and secular nationalism.

Marium Chughtai, in her recent debate with Hoodbhoy, correctly pointed out to him that his approach and ideology (separation of State and religion) necessitated a constitutional level approach rather than this nitpicking over policy and criticism of everything under the sun in Pakistan.

Hoodbhoy isn't the only one with this problem - I have pleaded multiple times with Pakistani liberals, in person and in debates on various platforms, to halt their current trajectory which pits them against Pakistan's constitution, the conservative nature of Pakistani society AND the military. They need to build partnerships with the power centers and build support for the changes they want. Take an incremental approach to change - focus on equality and justice, understand the need to leverage Islamic principles of equality, justice and freedom of religion to enact change, both legislative and societal, because whether we remain the 'Islamic Republic of Pakistan' or just the 'Republic of Pakistan' is irrelevant.

Just look at what is occurring in India, despite it's 'secular' label.

This rampage against Islam, the country's ideology and its power centers has done little more than sharpen the divide and harden positions on both sides and isolate the Pakistani left. The little leverage and voice they have right now is because of their common cause (against the PTI and Army) with two highly loathed political parties in Pakistan, the PPP and PMLN, and every disaster in Sindh under the rule of the PPP just discredits them and their positions even further.

Pakistan's liberal/leftist elite is tiny. They need to learn to function with ALL power centers rather than banking on one or two parties where the leadership makes the right noises once in a while whilst carrying an enormous amount of baggage which will prevent them from even enacting meaningful change.

The changes being pursued need broad based support from all sections of Pakistan. Supporting the PPP while making an enemy of the military, the PTI (currently the largest and most popular political party in Pakistan), conservative sections of Pakistani society and nationalists is no way to build a broad based coalition.

That is good advice indeed. It is high time for everyone to recognize conservative nature of the constitution, society and the military, and the consequences thereof. Change, if it ever comes, as you rightly point out, must come slowly in order to be accepted by society.

Gentlemen let me add few cents (not two cents :-))
First of all on the day of Hujja tul Wida as per revelation chapter 5 verse 4, "today deen is completed" deen was completed anything further is just interpretation nothing more and as such not compulsory to be followed.

Either one is Muslim or one is not, there is no liberal Muslim or fundamentalist Muslim, Islam remains the same. Conduct of Muslims can have tendency of extremism or balanced, period.

So Islam by virtue of all its teachings is a deen of balance, harmony and nature, i find it amusing that people find variations in Islam.

Now religious fraternity with the exception of Moulana Shabeer Ahmed Usmani was all against Pakistan movement. People having extremist tendencies or whose interpretation of Islam varies from one sect to the other, strangely they were all united against Pakistan movement.

Pakistanis or people in this part of the world have always been easy going, Muslims but not devout followers of any extremist movement (in general).

It is very strange for me to gather how a fraternity which was against the creation of Pakistan somehow blackmailed Liaquat Ali to expel Ch Zafarullah from the cabinet and then ensure a certain Para was added to the first Constitution.

People who in every discussion curse Quaid e Azam, Dr Allama Iqbal, who have openly admitted that they were not part of the "sin" for creation of Pakistan now tell us why Pakistan was created seems a bit strange to me.

Pakistanis in general have never supported these elements, trusted them and the proof is that despite significant increase in population their entire vote bank is either the same or deteriorated.

Unfortunately what Zia did in his shortsightedness to give free reign to them along unaccounted funding from our "brotherly countries" like parasites they have dug deep, people like Akhtar Abdul Rehman and CIA taught them well how to exploit religious vulnerabilities of the masses.

Musharraf went way overboard on the other extreme, followed by Ghaddari when foreign funded other POV organizations were given free reign to force change/challenge everything thing the first group had been inculcating among Pakistanis.

In my opinion both groups are two sides of the same coin, both want chaos, unrest, civil war so that they could be installed as saviors by their puppet masters.

Like I said Pakistanis or people in this part of the world have always been easy going, Muslims but not devout followers of any extremist movement (in general) that is one of the reasons ideology of both extremes have not taken roots among majority Pakistanis and I have my doubt they will ever take any root.

Sentiments can be exploited for the time being like declaring a minority a minority and then adding them to the legislative assemblies, setting up of prayer site for one minority or the other but not in the long run.

Agreed that a traitorous/extremist religious fraternity is not required in Pakistan along its ideology but the other side opposed it in such a stupid manner that our natural defenses of resistance to change kicked in, to add to it these elements became devout preacher against everything that we Pakistanis hold dear and the result is idiots like this guy and the Geo/Jew network both are failing and whining enterprises in different ways.
 
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Why doesn’t he debate an Islamic scholar? Is he frightened that he is not a qualified intellectual? It seems that this guy will go down as a total fraud in history books.
 
Isn't that precisely what the author in the OP has done?

Should criticism only be the domain of Pakistan's liberal/leftist elite?

Is Hoodbhoy allowed to call an accomplished scholar, Dr. Mariam Chughtai, a 'Fasadi' and likening her to the TTP, when she calmly demolishes his arguments against the new Single National Curriculum but others aren't allowed to take Hoodbhoy to task in a civil and factual manner as done in the OP?

I feel honored having stumbled upon your posts. I wish the quality of this forum reflected the intellect you and a select few others bring to bear.

Peace.
 
The Deep State is not exactly purely aligned with Islamic thinking, so Islamizing society is not its priority. Its priority is to defend and promote Pakistan's national security interests. Where Religion is the glue to bind together disparate ethnic groups and eliminate leftist and separatist tendencies among them, it will happily apply that glue. But its intention in doing so is not out of some religious zeal. Even someone like Hamid Gul was not an Islamic personality at the end of the day, but he definitely knew the value of Religion as the instrument to protect Pakistan's national security interests. In my perspective, there is a possibility that one day the Deep State may become a force that is antagonistic to orthodox Islam. It may already be creating some kind of state version of Islam that is highly reductionist that will serve the purpose of the country's national security interests and impose religious homogeneity. But I am highly fearful of the imposition of religious homogeneity because in all likelihood, a state version of Islam will not actually be the orthodox Islam that I favor.

I respectfully disagree --- but perhaps not for the reasons you may suspect.

I wholeheartedly agree that the Deep State isn't particularly interested in an Islamic approach to nationhood/livelihood but, crucially, I don't think they have had the country's security interests in mind either.

Whether it is a problem of competence or will (i.e. ability VS. neeyat / intentions), the fact remains that the Deep State has been extremely slow to react to most precipitating security challenges. When the damage becomes impossible to ignore, it springs into action --- and it is usually too late to contain things without a massive mobilization as we saw in FATA against TTP at that point.

I wasn't suggesting that the Deep State deal with Hoodhboy because Hoodhboy is a threat to Islam --- rather because he actively encourages students to question the very notion/idea/purpose of Pakistan's creation. He aggressively blames religion and the spawn of Pakistan as a separate nation-state for all of our present ills. This is dangerous for society beyond the purely spiritual realm, but of course the Deep State is enjoying its slumber.
 
Agreed that a traitorous/extremist religious fraternity is not required in Pakistan along its ideology but the other side opposed it in such a stupid manner that our natural defenses of resistance to change kicked in, to add to it these elements became devout preacher against everything that we Pakistanis hold dear and the result is idiots like this guy and the Geo/Jew network both are failing and whining enterprises in different ways.

Moving the discussion along, given all the numerous missteps along the way as you have mentioned, what is now important is the direction the country takes going forward. With PMIK and the military currently on the same page, a coherent government strategy to hold back extremists of both sides can do wonders, if one were to be implemented.
 
I respectfully disagree --- but perhaps not for the reasons you may suspect.

I wholeheartedly agree that the Deep State isn't particularly interested in an Islamic approach to nationhood/livelihood but, crucially, I don't think they have had the country's security interests in mind either.

Whether it is a problem of competence or will (i.e. ability VS. neeyat / intentions), the fact remains that the Deep State has been extremely slow to react to most precipitating security challenges. When the damage becomes impossible to ignore, it springs into action --- and it is usually too late to contain things without a massive mobilization as we saw in FATA against TTP at that point.

I wasn't suggesting that the Deep State deal with Hoodhboy because Hoodhboy is a threat to Islam --- rather because he actively encourages students to question the very notion/idea/purpose of Pakistan's creation. He aggressively blames religion and the spawn of Pakistan as a separate nation-state for all of our present ills. This is dangerous for society beyond the purely spiritual realm, but of course the Deep State is enjoying its slumber.
In the context of the current discussion and my criticism of Pakistani liberals/leftists (that they are fighting a losing battle, making enemies of various power centers and the majority of Pakistanis), perhaps it is time that the Deep State take the initiative with liberals/leftists, not to quash them, but to reach out and co-opt them, at least those that are willing.

People like Ejaz Haider come to mind - socially liberal, a nationalist and who doesn't pick sides when it comes to criticizing policy (PPP, PMLN PTI - I've seen him go after everyone).

If the current liberal/leftist elite is too far gone to co-opt, perhaps it is time that more people like Ejaz Haider are cultivated in our universities and media. Do what the US Establishment does - find journalists with potential, cultivate them and ply them with information from 'anonymous, high level military sources' approved to do just that. Help build their reputations and that of their sources (David Sanger, Bob Woodward etc in the US for example).

We have to become a lot more sophisticated in how we deal with modern information warfare. ISPR may be ahead of the game compared to the Indian military, but we still have a lot of room for improvement.
 

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