Induction of Balochistanis in Pak Army - All News

[Xeric]

And Only one 'Open Merit' seat.

i dont want to get into this but how can it be 'one' seat in open merit, when actually is 'Open' Merit? Seats are there in quota system, may if you are talking about cross-province admissions, then you may be right. Please clarify.

But I also know why the 'locals' want to have this system in place. It is easy to blame the Sardars for not letting Schools established in their 'areas', but we tend to forget that these very Sardars were fully supported by various Pakistani Governments, military and civilian alike. Bugti was praised much during the 70s only because he had supported the Army action in Balochistan, the same Bugti became an enemy of Pakistan when he voiced against the discriminatory treatment of Balochistan by Islamabad. Was that not unfortunate that the Murri tribes were openly supported by the Musharraf regime to counter Akbar Bugti? Instead of totally eliminating the feudal system, our governments have strengthened it, and when this system bites us back, we try to resolve the issue by carrying out military operations.

During Musharraf’s time, Balochistan was promised to give Rs. 350 million, in reality though, only Rs 35 Million were given to Balochistan. Similarly, Zardari promised to give Rs 46 million, but in reality, this was only the budget of the Balochistan Government, no additional money only propaganda. The Balochistan problem has gone beyond the blame game, it needs a real solution and urgently. And trust me (or don’t) establishing cantonments in Balochistan will only result in more harm than good.

That's what the military is trying to do.
Reduce the influence of Sardars and the only way to do it is by increasing the awareness among the locals. Now how this 'awareness' thing can be done is:

More education
More opportunities to see outside the local village
More exposure to outside 'humans'
etc etc..

Think about a dude who was born in Duki and died there, the most exposure he had with rest of Pakistan was: when he was nearing his death someone told his family that there is a guud hospital in a city known as Lahore!!

Now when the same family is able to send its kids out till Peshawar, Islamabad, Karachi etc so do you think when he comes back would he be listening to that Sardar any more?

Oh yes this is going to hurt Sardars alot and they would and are trying to countering it. All of us, except those who themselves are Sardars in Balochistan, would support this action of the military.

i have mentioned in my thread regarding Chamalang Coal Mines about a person who i happened to interview who claimed that he has seen lahore when he turned 40, before that he never even knew that it existed, how on earth can that person or for that matter is children stabd against the Sardars? But yes now they would, and what make me happy is that it is most of the Sardars themselves who have helped the Army to make the Balochs more aware. And i salute all of them! Because unlike Bugti they want the Baloch people to prosper, not a single tribe or their own family.

Feudalism must end, in Sindh and Balochistan even in Punjab!

Oh and i miss, thankyou qsaark to omit the Army from your text regarding the non-payment of promised money to Balochistan

 

[qsaark]

i dont want to get into this but how can it be 'one' seat in open merit, when actually is 'Open' Merit? Seats are there in quota system, may if you are talking about cross-province admissions, then you may be right. Please clarify.

There is no Merit system followed in the University of Balochistan. And yes, out of a total of 22 seats (in Inst. Biochem that time), there was only one open merit seat. So if you have highest marks in your BSc among those who are applying in the same Department, you'll get the admission. If not, than basically you are doomed, because rest 21 seats will be distributed strictly based on the quota system allocated for several Districts of Balochistan.

For the rest of your post, I am not against the essence of it. All I am saying is, this was perhaps possible a few years ago, but now, in Balochistan, Army is viewed as enemy. So this is just not the right time to establish more Cantonments, for this will cause more hateret among Balochs for the Punjabis.

This problem has now gone beyond the Sardars, the Balochs can no longer be controlled by their Sardars. Now GoP (not Army) has to show some real commitment and sincerity towards the Balochistan problem. A starting point could be to announce to give the full royalty of Sui Gas to the people of Balochistan.

But I know, this will not happen. I am not pessimistic, but my experience tells me that this will not happen. GoP will keep trying to rule the Balochistan like a subject and would never give them what they really deserve.

 

[Xeric]

For the rest of your post, I am not against the essence of it. All I am saying is, this was perhaps possible a few years ago, but now, in Balochistan, Army is viewed as enemy. So this is just not the right time to establish more Cantonments, for this will cause more hateret among Balochs for the Punjabis.

Not agreed.

The killing of local Baloch sardars recently by unknown people did fuel the things up, but army is not stopping its 'clandestine' activities

 

[qsaark]

Not agreed.

The killing of local Baloch sardars recently by unknown people did fuel the things up, but army is not stopping its 'clandestine' activities

You are entitled to your understanding, I can't force you to agree with my observations and understanding of the situation. Hopefuly we'll still be debating on this forum in next few years, we'll see whose understanding passes the test of the time.

 

[Xeric]

You are entitled to your understanding, I can't force you to agree with my observations and understanding of the situation. Hopefuly we'll still be debating on this forum in next few years, we'll see whose understanding passes the test of the time.

That should be the spirit.
Best of luck

 

[Kasrkin]

I don't get it qsaark, why would something like a simple Pakistani Army cantonment 'alienate' simple Pakistani people? Unless you’re suggesting that the Army are criminals, thugs, bullies and extortionists who intimidate and terrorize who ever lives in proximity to them, why would anyone find their presence to be a justification for ‘hate’? The Army doesn’t interfere with normal day to day life of citizens, in fact they’re hardly ever seen. Their logistical, medical and engineering arms are only ever a source of progress and development and employment in far flung and backward places, and this is attested fact.

So is this ‘hate’ for the army you speak of in Baluchistan, is the Army’s presence the cause for it or a symptom of the deeper ill that assails parts of that province? If you claim it to be a ‘cause’ then that makes no sense unless you think that the army deserves to be hated. Therefore what is the source of this hostility? This I-don’t-want-Punjabis or I-don’t-want-Pathans in my land is a primitive, tribal mentality that has no place in civilized and harmonious nation-states. I think you’d agree as can be seen by your entirely proper criticism of MQM. But why don’t you ever try to address the deep rooted sickness and cause of this issue instead of insisting that the army should be prohibited from doing its job in its own country? The Army is indeed very sensitive to these issues, and the establishment of cantonments and garrisons will only help with the integration and the recruitment of normal Baluchis. Because your average Balch is not a Pakistan hating secessionist. This issue of Balochi separatism exists not only in Pakistan, but in Iran and Afghanistan as well. It will have to be ideologically (and militarily ofcourse when required) crushed if Pakistan is to survive and this will not be achieved if Pakistan’s institutions are prevented and condemned for even living in an important part of their own country.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Lowering the standards of army----it has already happened with the u s millitary----women soldiers---

It has happened in the police force in the u s---female cops----it has happened in the fire dept in the u s as well---female fire fighters----and that is the worst of all----the standard of a u s fire fighter used to be to pick up a body 250 lbs on shoulder and resuce----now to accomodate the females---who miserably failed the test----the females are allowed to drag a body out of the hazardous area---not by the head first---but by the feet first method----which means that your's and mine head could be banging anywhere on the ground just to accomodate a female fire fighter to get a nice high paying job.

Mr Bugti was a gov of baluchistan----he had every right and executive power to do so as he pleased---but they loved to play the game----put the money in their coffers---and then blame the federation for all theur ills.

I know the present gov of baluchistan Mr Raiasni first hand---he was my class fellow---as well as Mr Shahid Bugti---we were in the same school and same class and I would keep my comments reserved for the time being.

Pakistanis have a convenient habbit of blaming the pak millitary for all their political ills and woes of ineptitude. Truthfully---pakistani civil society has no ability to rule and govern itself---they have proven it again and again---over and over---and in return, the pak millitary want to start up being democratic in function and ability, when they take power---but then as they don't have any infra structure of democracy built in them, they tend to teeter in between the realm of uncertainty---democratic or dictatorial.

The establishment of millitary garrisons by the federation in the far off areas has always helped to bring better life to the civilians living anywhere in the world during all times---pakistan is no different.

The only threat the cantonments will pose will be to the sardars and their cohorts---progress and development will follow through---that is but natural----the sardars will fight to their bitter end to keep development away from their areas at all costs---they have done that for centuries---they won't change just for today.

 

[Xeric]

Mr Bugti was a gov of baluchistan----he had every right and executive power to do so as he pleased---but they loved to play the game----put the money in their coffers---and then blame the federation for all theur ills.

I know the present gov of baluchistan Mr Raiasni first hand---he was my class fellow---as well as Mr Shahid Bugti---we were in the same school and same class and I would keep my comments reserved for the time being.

Let me do the honor sir, Mr Raisani is the biggest and largest car lifter/snatcher (supporter, sympathizer, safe houser etc etc) of all times!

His income through this profitable 'business' have been giving gold miners nightmares!

 

[qsaark]

I don't get it qsaark, why would something like a simple Pakistani Army cantonment 'alienate' simple Pakistani people? Unless you’re suggesting that the Army are criminals, thugs, bullies and extortionists who intimidate and terrorize who ever lives in proximity to them, why would anyone find their presence to be a justification for ‘hate’? The Army doesn’t interfere with normal day to day life of citizens, in fact they’re hardly ever seen. Their logistical, medical and engineering arms are only ever a source of progress and development and employment in far flung and backward places, and this is attested fact.

So is this ‘hate’ for the army you speak of in Baluchistan, is the Army’s presence the cause for it or a symptom of the deeper ill that assails parts of that province? If you claim it to be a ‘cause’ then that makes no sense unless you think that the army deserves to be hated. Therefore what is the source of this hostility? This I-don’t-want-Punjabis or I-don’t-want-Pathans in my land is a primitive, tribal mentality that has no place in civilized and harmonious nation-states. I think you’d agree as can be seen by your entirely proper criticism of MQM. But why don’t you ever try to address the deep rooted sickness and cause of this issue instead of insisting that the army should be prohibited from doing its job in its own country? The Army is indeed very sensitive to these issues, and the establishment of cantonments and garrisons will only help with the integration and the recruitment of normal Baluchis. Because your average Balch is not a Pakistan hating secessionist. This issue of Balochi separatism exists not only in Pakistan, but in Iran and Afghanistan as well. It will have to be ideologically (and militarily ofcourse when required) crushed if Pakistan is to survive and this will not be achieved if Pakistan’s institutions are prevented and condemned for even living in an important part of their own country.

I have already posted my observations in previous posts and there is no need to repeat them all over again. Obviously neither you, nor Mastan Saheb or Enigma is getting what I am trying to say for reasons only you know. Since I am not the person you want to believe in, in order to understand what is going on in Balochistan, you may want to pay a visit there. Talk to the people of Balochistan and you'll get first hand idea about their concerns and complaints (provided that they wanted to share it with you). What 'average' Baloch thinks about GoP and Army is neither you want to listen nor want to believe. You are happy believing that all this fuss is because of few Sardars and if they are sorted out, the problem will be solved. We had the same thought about 'few ghunda elements' of awami league, and our military and political leadership had firm belief that once few of these elements are sorted out, we'll solve the East Pakistan problem, because 'average Bengali' does not hate GoP or Army. Boy, we were totally wrong on this. What GoP is going to do about Balochistan problem, neither you nor I have any say into. So this discussion is kind of useless, because neither mine nor your opinion is going to make any difference. If the current policies of GoP and Army continue, one does not require exceptional fortune telling capabilities to predict what is going to happen in the near future. I have already mentioned that Sardars have pretty much become irrelevant, now this ‘anti-Pakistan’ and ‘anti-Army’ movement has already moved into masses of Balochistan. May Allah help us and give us wisdom to handle this political problem through political means.

 

[SSGPA1]

I have already posted my observations in previous posts and there is no need to repeat them all over again. Obviously neither you, nor Mastan Saheb or Enigma is getting what I am trying to say for reasons only you know. Since I am not the person you want to believe in, in order to understand what is going on in Balochistan, you may want to pay a visit there. Talk to the people of Balochistan and you'll get first hand idea about their concerns and complaints (provided that they wanted to share it with you). What 'average' Baloch thinks about GoP and Army is neither you want to listen nor want to believe. You are happy believing that all this fuss is because of few Sardars and if they are sorted out, the problem will be solved. We had the same thought about 'few ghunda elements' of awami league, and our military and political leadership had firm belief that once few of these elements are sorted out, we'll solve the East Pakistan problem, because 'average Bengali' does not hate GoP or Army. Boy, we were totally wrong on this. What GoP is going to do about Balochistan problem, neither you nor I have any say into. So this discussion is kind of useless, because neither mine nor your opinion is going to make any difference. If the current policies of GoP and Army continue, one does not require exceptional fortune telling capabilities to predict what is going to happen in the near future. I have already mentioned that Sardars have pretty much become irrelevant, now this ‘anti-Pakistan’ and ‘anti-Army’ movement has already moved into masses of Balochistan. May Allah help us and give us wisdom to handle this political problem through political means.

All of us understand and share your concerns but issue is that how do we address the situation at hand.

If GoP agrees to stop building anymore cantts then people in Baluchistan and elsewhere would think that Sardars are right and challenging the writ of govt is the only way to go.

Solution to the issues in Baluchistan should be a give and take, give should be financial support and jobs to the Balochs and take should be the establishment of govt. writ.

A humble request: Please don't compare East Pakistan with Baluchistan for the following reasons:

1. Awami League won the elections and we denied them the right to rule. This is not the case in Baluchistan.

2. Sheikh Mujeeb was the only true and popular leader in EP. This is also not true for Baluchistan as we have Jamali, Jam Sadiq, Raisani, Magsi, Bugti, Kalpar, Menagl and mony others.

3. Bangalis were the largest ethnic group in entire Pakistan. Baluchs are one of the smaller ethinc groups.

4. East Pakistan and West Pakistan had India in between and China was also weak. Baluchistan doesn't have the same demographics and China is much stronger and involved today.

5. West Pakistan was not willing to pay attention to the genuine demands of East Pakistan. Majority of the Pakistanis and their leadership is receptive to Baluch issues and concerns.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

People---foreigners don't understand that how incompetent pakistani civil engineering sector is when it comes down to taking care of mega projects---case in point the SUKKUR BARAGE---.

THE SUKKUR BARRAGE---the foundations had totally eroded---the barrage was about to be floating down river---no pakistani engineering conglomerate had the experience in taking care of the situation---foreign companies---would have cost hundreds of millions and no company was possibly readily available on a call now show up now basis.

Pak millitary took up the project on war footings and within a very short time secured the structure before the annual floods came----it is a one mile long barrage with about 60 plus spans---the foundations of all the gates were re-furbished to give the barage a new life.

Now---am I a spokes person for the pak army---no I am not---none of my family members are in the army---they were and are in civilian jobs---do I appreciate the pak army---yes I do---but unlike most---I don't put the blame on pak army for getting involved in politics---it is the failure on the parts of the politicians and the public to invite the army into the prime minster's house everytime.

 

[All-Green]

Hi,

People---foreigners don't understand that how incompetent pakistani civil engineering sector is when it comes down to taking care of mega projects---case in point the SUKKUR BARAGE---.

THE SUKKUR BARRAGE---the foundations had totally eroded---the barrage was about to be floating down river---no pakistani engineering conglomerate had the experience in taking care of the situation---foreign companies---would have cost hundreds of millions and no company was possibly readily available on a call now show up now basis.

Pak millitary took up the project on war footings and within a very short time secured the structure before the annual floods came----it is a one mile long barrage with about 60 plus spans---the foundations of all the gates were re-furbished to give the barage a new life.

Now---am I a spokes person for the pak army---no I am not---none of my family members are in the army---they were and are in civilian jobs---do I appreciate the pak army---yes I do---but unlike most---I don't put the blame on pak army for getting involved in politics---it is the failure on the parts of the politicians and the public to invite the army into the prime minster's house everytime.

Salaams MK,
A very good point you have raised about the Sukkur Barrage and Army role in mega projects which should be appreciated and remembered.
The national highways and particularly those of mountainous areas etc. have been a really big achievement which was only made possible with Army involvement and hard work including many sacrificed lives in the mountains.
The role played by Army in floods and the earthquakes is also something which should be remembered when judging the role our professional Army has to play in development of Pakistan.
It is the backbone of Pakistan and will play a role in most of the affairs of state, this does not mean it should become the brain like an Army dicator but i feel in shunning the Army from politics we sometimes assume that they should altogether vanish which is folly...I hate to see a uniformed general as the president and i hope i never see that day again but i will not forget what Army has done and is capable of doing when used properly...
Why should i not use the only high quality and most efficient force i have at my disposal to bridge the deficiencies in my state infrastructure?

One cannot hope to defeat feudalism/militancy without Army role in providing a threat of force and ensuring smooth roll out of projects such as roads, waterworks etc.
The establishment of cantonments in the underdeveloped areas and induction from such areas needs to be a priority from following perspectives.

1) Acceptance of the locals into the State apparatus and creating a sense of belonging to Pakistan which has been absent due to many reasons not all of which are nefarious designs of the state but rather unresolved issues and errors in judgement/execution!

2)Having a show of force which is absolutely needed to quell the rebelious/blackmailing tendencies of local sardars and feudal lords till the time their power wanes due to development of the areas and education/emancipation of the society.

3) Providing security to all the state assets including roads, bridges, waterworks, oil/gas fields, mineral mines etc. and ofcourse securing the populace from the atrocities of the sardars or any militant fanatics trying to fill the vaccum of power in any part of Pakistan.

4) Providing a much quicker response time in case of flash floods, earthquake relief and any such calamity in the underdeveloped areas which sting a lot more due to absence of basic facilities in such areas.
This is also something not to be taken lightly.

One thing which is key here is that there is no major injustice in Pakistan on an ethnic level or provincial level regarding limited opportunities to qualified people, i have not seen this in the corporate sector.
This much flaunted victimization is also not present in the state machinery and Presidents, Prime Ministers, Governors, IGs, Generals, Judges, Civil Servants etc. have always been from diverse backgrounds.

I agree that to qualify the individuals in different areas have different chances of success due to the infrastructure and that has to be addressed but it was not a deliberate attempt against a particular ethnic group but rather a case of ground realities and negligence due to vested interests of the feudals/sardars.

The problem which i see is that since times ancient Most of Punjab and parts of Sindh and NWFP had cities with industries, education centers, infrastructure etc.
The social setup in these areas has manifested in individuals who are much more open minded, assertive, educated and cannot be controlled by some feudal lords with armed thugs and some ethnic slogans to breed hatred.

Interior Sindh, Southern Punjab, Baluchistan and Tribal areas are another case where due to the lack of infrastructure, education etc. there are people who are frustrated and can be used and abused.
There needs to be a focus on development in these areas but sadly in many such areas a project cannot be started without bribing, negotiating with hundreds of thugs, feudals etc who try to blackmail the state via their control over the population.
If you are building a road and not bribing them, they will make people believe that road is deliberately being built without local labour and contractors since the state considers them third class citizens and do not want them to progress etc etc...
We need to break this cycle and it cannot be done without State Security Forces presence in all such areas to infuse the necessary confidence in both the masses and the civil services etc etc.

Yes we are in trouble...
Yes we are fighting many fires
Yes this may not address all the issues...

...but sitting on our behind is also not going to get us anywhere so might as well try something which may work rather than ponder on the what ifs...we do not have the time and luxury for the what ifs today...perhaps 2 decades earlier we should have been debating on how to go about it.

Let us pray that the efforts bear fruit in terms of harmony, security and development.
Inshallah.

 

[Zulfiqar]

THE SUKKUR BARRAGE---the foundations had totally eroded---the barrage was about to be floating down river---no pakistani engineering conglomerate had the experience in taking care of the situation---foreign companies---would have cost hundreds of millions and no company was possibly readily available on a call now show up now basis.

One more thing that i should mention. In peace time our engineer battalions are a little extra,by this i mean that we have extra equipment and skilled labor which is not needed in peace time but it is strongly needed in war. Since army has a little problem maintaining them due to budgetary constraints so they are seconded to FWO, this way they get some money and it helps in maintaining the unit to an extent.

My father was a sapper.

 

[Xeric]

My father was a sapper.

Great Sappers!

First to Go, Last to Come!!

 

[TexasJohn]

Hi,

Lowering the standards of army----it has already happened with the u s millitary----women soldiers---

It has happened in the police force in the u s---female cops----it has happened in the fire dept in the u s as well---female fire fighters----and that is the worst of all----the standard of a u s fire fighter used to be to pick up a body 250 lbs on shoulder and resuce----now to accomodate the females---who miserably failed the test----the females are allowed to drag a body out of the hazardous area---not by the head first---but by the feet first method----which means that your's and mine head could be banging anywhere on the ground just to accomodate a female fire fighter to get a nice high paying job.

I don't see what you mean by inducting females whether in the Armed forces, or Police or firefighting degrades their quality. Women are not sent out in frontline combat although it may wind up being that way sometimes, by accident . Female fighter pilots have to go through the exact same standards males do. No slack there.

You obviously have not rubbed a female cop in the US the wrong way. They are every bit as hard nosed as a male cop, sometimes more so, especially if they show up on scene of a domestic violence call. I sometimes feel sorry for the guy!!

As far as firefighters, no idea where you are getting that information from. Any links?

btw, don't you have female cops in Pakistan too??