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Indian Muslims on the creation of Pakistan

part of my family is still in India..
Pre partition they livid in a large mansion in Lucknow.. still there today..
and were quite famous there..
after partition..
The difference in the living standards of the family here..and those that chose to stay behind is very wide.
Most of the cousins here live in large houses..drive expensive cars..wear the best...
Those that stayed behind.. have had to sell portions of that compound off to make a living...
People make statements here that we left "huge" properties...back in India and look where are we here..
what they dont mention is how their relatives who chose to stay behind are doing...they are nowhere compared to their relatives in Pakistan..and that is the diff that counts.
And this applies across the spectrum..not just a personal exp.

That is too much of generalization for me.
I would believe in you, if you can also tell how they are not affluent, your Indian cousins.

1) Did the government took their money?
2) Did they not aget equal opportunity?

Without knowing the reason, how can we know what caused you to be rich and them to be poor.
 
That is too much of generalization for me.
I would believe in you, if you can also tell how they are not affluent, your Indian cousins.

1) Did the government took their money?
2) Did they not aget equal opportunity?

Without knowing the reason, how can we know what caused you to be rich and them to be poor.

I dont think they got equal opportunities..'
Affluent..no..
But comfortable..very much.
Living in cramped potholed streets...
Still musing about their future..
They cant compete in their neighborhood..
their education level is lower..
And the saddest part of it..they are forgetting their own culture..
They speak a hodgepodge of half sanskrit and half urdu..

Their parents..
some of their cousins here are millionaires...and all of them had the same opportunity..the same start..
Each have struggled..
But the reward for that struggle has been contrastingly different.
Those people.. whose father was supposedly a close friend of Jawaharlal nehru.. on a first name basis..are still lower middle class..
On the opposite site..
their cousins....even the worst off..are better than the best they have there.
The only Indian cousin who has a good life is one who sold his stakes in India and moved to Dubai.. his hard work of twenty years paid off for him.
 
I dont think they got equal opportunities..'
Affluent..no..
But comfortable..very much.
Living in cramped potholed streets...
Still musing about their future..
They cant compete in their neighborhood..
their education level is lower..
And the saddest part of it..they are forgetting their own culture..
They speak a hodgepodge of half sanskrit and half urdu..

Their parents..
some of their cousins here are millionaires...and all of them had the same opportunity..the same start..
Each have struggled..
But the reward for that struggle has been contrastingly different.
Those people.. whose father was supposedly a close friend of Jawaharlal nehru.. on a first name basis..are still lower middle class..
On the opposite site..
their cousins....even the worst off..are better than the best they have there.
The only Indian cousin who has a good life is one who sold his stakes in India and moved to Dubai.. his hard work of twenty years paid off for him.

That's likely it if you gonna stay in Lucknow and make a living out of family property. The guy who went to Dubai probably is richest of you all.

I won't say everyone gets equal opportunity but there's no difference between a rich Hindu and a rich Muslim.
 
They speak a hodgepodge of half sanskrit and half urdu..


You sure about this?


I think its the locality that has effected ,lemme guess your cousins are from Karachi or Islamabad, i don't think they'd gotten better if they settled in some undeveloped part of Pakistan.
 
So ipso facto.
The partition was actually a good thing.
It got us lazy Hindustani's to struggle.

To my mind the partition though painful for those who lived thru it was a good thing.

What was wrong was the manner it went about beginning from preponement of the date from 48 to Aug 47 and the collapse of law & order.

Ppl who came from what now is Pak and were loosely called ' refugees" have done exceedingly well & I expect the ' mojahirs' too must be doing well in the nation of their choice.
 
Jinnah said that the muslims under indian rule would drop to the lowest class in india......it turned out to be true.
I bet if pakistan opened its border the muslims from india would rush into pakistan.

Ps was there a referendum in india asking if all the people wanted the india we have today?

are muslims in pakistan doing better than indian muslims ?

in fact ,pakistanis live in the same poverty-like conditions as indian muslims.

bangladeshis are already moving into india for economic reasons ,into west bengal and assam.

in fact ,if the indian border is opened for pakistanis , many pakistanis would migrate to india to take advantage of its fast-growing economy.

thats why i believe that the kashmir problem is a god-send .

at least because of that problem ,the pakistan border remains closed.
 
Jinnah said that the muslims under indian rule would drop to the lowest class in india......it turned out to be true.
I bet if pakistan opened its border the muslims from india would rush into pakistan.

Ps was there a referendum in india asking if all the people wanted the india we have today?

Please give me the direct quote where Jinnah said that.

However, here is a quote from his personal physician Col. Ilahi Baksh when he was present and was talking to Liaqat ali Khan just before he passed away. This was also confirmed by GM Syed.

"I made you Prime Minister. You think you made Pakistan. I have made Pakistan. But now I am convinced that I have committed the biggest blunder in my life. If now I get an opportunity, I will go to Delhi and tell Jawahar Lal to forget about the follies of the past and become friends again."


And as to comparison of muslims.
When it comes to literacy or per capita income. Indian muslims have higher literacy, higher per capita income and expenditure as well as longer life expectancy than Pakistani muslims. These are the facts.

Something to ponder about.
 
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Interesting article, my question is, how many Muslims from India migrate to Pakistan?
Or vice versa?

There was about 10-15 million people who migrated both ways and includes Hindus Muslims and Sikhs. And mainly around Punjab alone.

The reality was that many people DID NOT want to leave their ancestral homeland. But were forced to do so as the partition ripped apart the traditional multi-religious Punjabi society. To paraphrase Iqbal, it was a disaster for the people of Punjab.

If I am to fully believe this article, I would say that Indian Muslims are not too fond of Pakistan and its idea of "protecting Muslims and their interests" in their own home country, neither do they seem to be convinced that Pakistan is a nation that is tolerant for other religious groups e.g. the Christians.
My friend, no country, including Afghans, or Iranians are too fond of Pakistanis being their "protectors".
And the tolerance aspect is questioned by almost everyone. Pakistan is considered one of the most conservative muslim states in almost every survey. The sad part is that Pakistan was not always like that, its more to do with the radicalisation in the last 2-3 decades.


They seem to say so otherwise in this letter sent to the U.N.
Are Indian Muslims really happy with their position in India? And are they really convinced of a "united India" without any racial prejudices or the use of the caste system or whatever against them?
Happy compared to what should be the question. And ofcourse there will be some sort of prejudice. Even in Pakistan right now there is prejudice against Punjabis and non-Punjabis, shias and sunnis and so on. India is not heaven, but relatively speaking and noting that it is an ancestral homeland of the people there, they will be happy.

Why don't some of them migrate to Pakistan? Where they will be fully accepted and embraced as brothers and sisters.
Will they be accepted really?
There are still millions of Biharis who had wanted to go to West Pakistan after 1971,but he GoP refused to accept them. These are FORMER Pakistani citizens dumped by GoP. What guarantee now for new refugees?

Violence against Muslims in India is pretty common, so why would a muslim stay there and continue to believe in this ideology of a India that is tolerant for all races and beliefs and treats everyone equally, afterall, that is supposed to be the strength of India.
Why sacrifice your freedom to achieve India's large Hindu majority goals?

What do you mean by India's large Hindu majority goals? Akhand Bharat dream? Let me tell you that the Hindu psedo-nationalists (who comprise a minority in any case) would be horrified by the addition of Pakistan and Bangladesh muslim populations that would give muslims a decisive say in all affairs in India. But don't worry this will not happen and neither should we even hope this will happen. This is a non-issue.

Violenece against muslims- there have been detailed studies done on this and yes it is a problem. But lets keep the perspective of keeping it relative to Pakistan.

Most major studies put the total death toll in riots since 1950 to around 25,000 to 30,000 mainly muslims but also sikhs, hindus and christians.
Compare this to death of 300,000 East Pakistanis by the Military and just 30,000 dead Pakistanis in the last 10 years.

The statistic would paint a completely different picture of where is it safer to live.
 
The thing is Pakistan has separated from india and its been 63 years now.so there is not a single possibility of us getting back together and thats the bottomline

separated for 63 years and still cant leave the infatuation with kashmir and indian muslims....
 
You sure about this?


I think its the locality that has effected ,lemme guess your cousins are from Karachi or Islamabad, i don't think they'd gotten better if they settled in some undeveloped part of Pakistan.

UP as a whole is undeveloped??:confused:
Or specifically Muslim areas?:what:
I have seen some development in Lucknow..and it compares favorably to a medium sized city..

There are people who settled in undeveloped areas..like bahawalpur..
and they too have done well..
and their cultural traditions have stayed the same.. whilst still taking on their adopted lands influence as well.


@abir

the Mohajir thing is quite political..
even in karachi... on a daily basis.. it is never in play..
time for elections.. or a land issue.. all of it comes into play..
did not Raj thakray issue the Maharashtra purity thing or something..??

However..
There is an element of discrimination against the descendants of refugees.. or specifically those from UP.. in the north western part of the country.. which is based on political history..nothing more.

Other than that...
If anything
I probably have to be the mixed plate of this country
Grandfather(paternal)->Kashmiri Mir's that moved to UP..
Both Grandmothers-> Kakori & Lucknow
Grandfather->(maternal)-> Pathan family in Shahjanpur

My closest friends..
one is from Bahawalpur in Punjab, one is from the punjabi population settled in Peshawar,.one is of parsi decent...and one is pure Sindhi.

So the mohajir and refugee status for me and my family ends with my father..

Everybody is fairly well integrated.
 
UP as a whole is undeveloped??:confused:
Or specifically Muslim areas?:what:

UP along with Bihar are most undeveloped states in India. The literacy, life expectancy, wealth etc of South Indian Muslims are a stark contrast to those from UP, Bihar and in a way West Bengal too.

@abir

the Mohajir thing is quite political..
even in karachi... on a daily basis.. it is never in play..
time for elections.. or a land issue.. all of it comes into play..
did not Raj thakray issue the Maharashtra purity thing or something..??

However..
There is an element of discrimination against the descendants of refugees.. or specifically those from UP.. in the north western part of the country.. which is based on political history..nothing more.

Other than that...
If anything
I probably have to be the mixed plate of this country
Grandfather(paternal)->Kashmiri Mir's that moved to UP..
Both Grandmothers-> Kakori & Lucknow
Grandfather->(maternal)-> Pathan family in Shahjanpur

My closest friends..
one is from Bahawalpur in Punjab, one is from the punjabi population settled in Peshawar,.one is of parsi decent...and one is pure Sindhi.

So the mohajir and refugee status for me and my family ends with my father..

Everybody is fairly well integrated.

I know, I know. Same thing has happened to Bengal as well. Bengal and Punjab were the only two states which suffered the direct consequences of partition. Bengal being a more liberal society, people didn't have to bear the stigma of being refugee.
 
There is a myth that all Indian Muslims wanted Pakistan. Facts are otherwise. No wonder there are almost equal number of Muslims who decided to live back in India. Here is letter from Indian Muslims to UN;

.................................................................................................
Memorandum submitted by Muslim leaders of India to UN Representative: 14 August 1951
Submitted by kashif on Mon, 06/25/2007 - 22:19. Indian Muslim
Text of Memorandum submitted by 14 Muslim leaders of India to Dr. Frank P. Graham, United Nations Representative 14 August, 1951

It is a remarkable fact that, while the Security Council and its various agencies have devoted so much time to the study of the Kashmir dispute and made various suggestions for its resolution, none of them has tried to ascertain the views of the Indian Muslims nor the possible effect of any hasty step in Kashmir, however well-intentioned, on the interests and well- being of the Indian Muslims. We are convinced that no lasting solution for the problem can be found unless the position of Muslims in Indian society is clearly understood.

Supporters of the idea of Pakistan, before this subcontinent was partitioned, discouraged any attempt to define Pakistan clearly and did little to anticipate the conflicting problems which were bound to arise as a result of the advocacy of the two-nation theory. The concept of Pakistan, therefore, became an emotional slogan with little rationale content. It never occurred to the Muslim League or its leaders that if a minority was not prepared to live with a majority on the subcontinent, how could the majority be expected to tolerate the minority.

It is, therefore, small wonder that the result of partition has been disastrous to Muslims. In undivided India, their strength lay about 100 million. Partition split up the Muslim people, confining them to the three isolated regions. Thus, Muslims number 25 million in Western Pakistan, 35 million to 40 million in India, and the rest in Eastern Pakistan. A single undivided community has been broken into three fragments, each faced with its own problems.

Pakistan was not created on a religious basis. If it had been, our fate as well as the fate of other minorities would have been settled at that time. Nor would the division of the sub- continent for reasons of religion have left large minorities in India or Pakistan.

This merely illustrates what we have said above, that the concept of Pakistan was vague, obscure, and never clearly defined, nor its likely consequences foreseen by the Muslim League, even when some of these should have been obvious.

When the partition took place, Muslims in India were left in the lurch by the Muslim League and its leaders. Most of them departed to Pakistan and a few who stayed behind stayed long enough to wind up their affairs and dispose of their property. Those who went over to Pakistan left a large number of relations and friends behind.

Having brought about a division of the country, Pakistan leaders proclaimed that they would convert Pakistan into a land where people would live a life according to the tenets of Islam. This created nervousness and alarm among the minorities living in Pakistan. Not satisfied with this, Pakistan went further and announced again and again their determination to protect and safeguard the interests of Muslims in India. This naturally aroused suspicion amongst the Hindus against us and our loyalty to India was questioned.

Pakistan had made our position weaker by driving out Hindus from Western Pakistan in utter disregard of the consequences of such a policy to us and our welfare. A similar process is in question in Eastern Pakistan from which Hindus are coming over to India in a large and large number.

If the Hindus are not welcome in Pakistan, how can we, in all fairness, expect Muslims to be welcomed in India ? Such a policy must inevitably, as the past has already shown, result in the uprooting of Muslims in this country and their migration to Pakistan where, as it became clear last year, they are no longer welcome, lest their influx should destroy Pakistan's economy.

Neither some of the Muslims who did migrate to Pakistan after partition, and following the widespread bloodshed and conflict on both sides of the Indo-Pakistan border in the north- west, have been able to find a happy asylum in what they had been told would be their homeland. Consequently some of them have had to return to India, e.g Meos who are now being rehabilitated in their former areas.

If we are living honorably in India today, it is certainly not due to Pakistan which, if anything, has by her policy and action weakened our pooition.

The credit goes to the broadminded leadership of India, to Mahatma Gandhi and Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, to the traditions of tolerance in this country and to the Constitution which ensures equal rights to all citizens of India, irrespective of their religion caste, creed, colour or sex.

We, therefore, feel that, tragically as Muslims were misled by the Muslim League and subsquently by Pakistan and the unnecessary suffering which we and our Hindu brethren have to go through in Pakistan and in India since partition, we must be given an opportunity to settle down to a life of tolerance and understanding to the mutual benefit of Hindus and Muslims in our country - if only Pakistan would let us do it. To us it is a matter of no smaller onsequence.

Despite continuous provocations, first from the Muslim League and since then from Pakistan, the Hindu majority in India has not thrown us or members of other minorities out of Civil Services, Armed Forces, the judiciary, trade, commerce, business and industry. There are Muslim Ministers in the Union and State cabinets, Muslim Governors, Muslim Ambassadors, representing India in foreign countries, fully enjoying the confidence of the Indian nation, Muslim members in Parliament and state legislatures, Muslim judges serving on the Supreme Court and High Courts, high-ranking officers in the Armed Foroes and the Civil services, including the police. Muslims have large landed estates, run big business and commercial houses in various parts of the country, notably in Bombay and Calcutta, have their shares in industrial production and enterprise in export and import trade. Our famous sacred shrines and places of cultural interest are mostly in India.

Not that our lot is certainly happy. We wish some of the state Governments showed a little greater sympathy to us in the field of education and employment. Nevertheless, we feel we have an honourable place in India. Under the law of the land, our religious and cultural life is protected and we shall share in the opportunities open to all citizens to ensure progress for the people of this country.

It is, therefore, clear that our interest and welfare do not coincide with Pakistan's conception of the welfare and interests of Muslims in Pakistan.

This is clear from Pakistan's attitude towards Kashmir. Pakistan claims Kashmir, first, on the ground of the majority of the State's people being Muslims and, secondly, on the ground, of the state being essential to its economy and defence. To achieve its objective it has been threatening to launch "Jehad" against Kashmir in India.

It is a strange commentary on political beliefs that the same Muslims of Pakistan who like the Muslims of Kashmir to join them invaded the state, in October 1947, killing and plundering Muslims in the state and dishonouring Muslim women, all in the interest of what they described as the liberation of Muslims of the State. In its oft-proclaimed anxiety to rescue the 3 million Muslims from what it describes as the tyranny of a handful of Hindus in the State, Pakistan evidently is prepared to sacrifice the interests of 40 million Muslims in India - a strange exhibition of concern for the welfare of fellow- Muslims. Our misguided brothers in Pakistan do not realise that if Muslims in Pakistan can wage a war against Hindus in Kashmir why should not Hindus, sooner or later, retaliate against Muslims in India.

Does Pakistan seriously think that it could give us any help if such an emergency arose or that we would deserve any help thanks to its own follies ? It is incapable of providing room and livelihood to the 40 million Muslims of India, should they migrate to Pakistan. Yet its policy and action, if not changed soon, may well produce the result which it dreads.

We are convinced that India will never attack our interests. First of all, it would be contrary to the spirit animating the political movement in this country. Secondly, it would be opposed to the Constitution and to the sincere leadership of the Prime Minister. Thirdly, India by committing such a folly would be playing straight into the hands of Pakistan.

We wish we were equally convinced of the soundness of Pakistan's policy. So completely oblivious is it of our present problems and of our future that it is willing to sell us into slavery - if only it can secure Kashmir.

It ignores the fact that Muslims in Kashmir may also have a point of view of their own, that there is a democratic movement with a democratic leadership in the State, both inspired by the progress of a broad minded, secular, democratic movement in India and both naturally being in sympathy with India. Otherwise, the Muslim raiders should have been welcomed with open arms by the Muslims of the State when the invasion took place in 1947.

Persistent propaganda about "Jehad" is intended, among other things, to inflame religious passions in this country. For it would, of course, be in Pakistan's interests to promote communal rioting in India to show to Kashmiri Muslims how they can find security only in Pakistan. Such a policy, however, can only bring untold misery and suffering to India and Pakistan generally and to Indian Muslims particularly.

Pakistan never tires of asserting that it is determined to protect the interests of Muslims in Kashmir and India. Why does not Pakistan express the same concern for Pathans who are fighting for Pakhtoonistan, an independent homeland of their own ? The freedom-loving Pathans under the leadership of Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan and Dr. Khan Sahib, both nurtured in the traditions of democratic tolerance of the Indian National Congress, are being subjected to political repression of the worst possible kind by their Muslim brethren in power in Pakistan and in the NWFP. Contradictory as Pakistan's policy generally is, it is no surprise to us that while it insists on a fair and impartial plebiscite in Kashmir, it denies a fair and impartial plebiscite to Pathans.

Pakistan's policy in general and her attitude towards Kashmir is particular thus tend to create conditions in this cauntry which in the long run can only bring to us Muslims widespread suffering and destruction. Its policy prevents us from settling down, from being honourable citizens of a State, free from suspicion of our fellow-countrymen and adapting ourselves to changing conditions to promote the interests and welfare of India. Its sabre-rattling interferes with its own economy and ours. It expects us to be layal to it despite its importance to give us any protection, believing at the same time that we can still claim all the rights of citizenship in a secular democracy.

In the event of a war, it is extremely doubtful whether it will be able to protect the Muslims of East Bengal who are completely cut off from Western Pakistan. Are the Muslims of India and Eastern Pakistan who sacrifice themselves completely to enable the 25 million Muslims in Western Pakistan to embark upon mad, self-destructive and adventures?

We should, therefore, like to impress upon you with all the emphasis at our command that Pakistan's policy towards Kashmir is fraught with the gravest peril to the 40 million Muslims of India. If the Security Council is really interested in peace human brotherhood, and international understanding, it should heed this warning while there is still time.

Dr. Zakir Hussain
(Vice Chancellor Aligarh University)
Sir Sultan Ahmed
(Former Member of Governor General's Executive Council)
Sir Mohd. Ahmed Syed Khan
(Nawab of Chhatari, former acting Governor of United Provinces and Prime Minister of Hyderabad)
Sir Mohd. Usman
(Former member of Governor General's Executive council and acting Governor of Madras)
Sir Iqbal Ahmed
(Former Chief Justice of Allahabad High Court)
Sir Fazal Rahimtoola
(Former Sheriff of Bombay)
Maulana Hafz-ur-Rehman M.P.
Col. B.H. Zaidi M.P.
Nawab Zain Yar Jung
(Minister Gcvernment of Hyderabad)
A.K. Kawaja
(Former President of Muslim Majlis)
T.M. Zarif
(General Secretary West Bengal Bohra Community)

Download PDF

Source:
Institute of Peace & Conflict Studies, India

link: Memorandum submitted by Muslim leaders of India to UN Representative: 14 August 1951 | Indian Muslims
...................................................................................................

People talk of referendum for Kashmir but nothing like that happened for the Muslims of British India.

RK

.....................................................................................................

I have gone thought all of this and found that they have missed one important factor which is
it was decided that all Muslim Majority areas of India will become a new Muslim state called Pakistan. and if you try to get maps in early days it covers lot of Muslim areas currently in India now. Its the fact that to gains they changed the maps and gave some of key areas to india .... and that is why Britsh are known for being problem makers :)

so this whole article is not mentioning that Kashmir was given to India on falls ground(hindu raja with muslim population) where as Junaghar and gujrat was also given to India on falls ground too(Muslim Raja and Majority hindu/other religion population.) so they created this mess with thier double standard and this is the real issue on which still Muslims in india are suffering
 
separated for 63 years and still cant leave the infatuation with kashmir and indian muslims....

and you are infatuated with evil plans to destroy kashmiries right for freedom....
we are HAPPY in our GREAT PAKISTAN and thansk ALLAH PAK for it.
well indians muslims are happy there our wishes with them no evil plans like yours...
:pakistan:
 

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