India has world’s third biggest defence spending now

[xeuss]

Come back in 5 years.We are undergoing a transformation atm.The old inefficient PSU system is being modified and replaced.Bureaucracy is being looked at,though modest hope in that regard.Also france and UK dont have to pay the salary and pension bills of 1.4 billion armymen ,nor pay maintainence for tens of thousands of vehicles,nor maintain huge active frontier garrisons in the most inhospitable terrain in the world ranging from tropical jungle,to highest mountains peaks and hot desert.Ontop of that fight nonstop COIN warfare and low intensity border skirmishes.

I don't expect a lot of changes in 5 years. What will happen though is the move from the PSUs to Indian-owned defence firms thanks to crony capitalism.

You will be discussing the same issues come 5 years. The only difference will be that the defense firms run by the Ambanis and Adanis would have considerably enriched themselves. Other than that, PSUs will still exist doing some random stuff. Defense personnel will find they pensions and benefits cut or capped. Defense acquisitions will still be a confusing and convoluted process.

 

[kongn]

I don't expect a lot of changes in 5 years. What will happen though is the move from the PSUs to Indian-owned defence firms thanks to crony capitalism.

You will be discussing the same issues come 5 years. The only difference will be that the defense firms run by the Ambanis and Adanis would have considerably enriched themselves. Other than that, PSUs will still exist doing some random stuff. Defense personnel will find they pensions and benefits cut or capped. Defense acquisitions will still be a confusing and convoluted process.

The private sector may have cronies,but it is efficient.Kalyani,VEM,alpha technologies,MKU,SSS and many new others are coming along with the big behemoths of reliance,adani,TATA,LT etc.PSU's will survive yes,but their monopoly is over.
They cant touch pensions.They will cut the army by 100000-200,000,increase age of retirement for officers in non-frontline duties,lease out unnecessary land holdings and rationalize.The theatre commands and CDS are good developments.I'm cautiously optimistic.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I don't expect a lot of changes in 5 years. What will happen though is the move from the PSUs to Indian-owned defence firms thanks to crony capitalism.

You will be discussing the same issues come 5 years. The only difference will be that the defense firms run by the Ambanis and Adanis would have considerably enriched themselves. Other than that, PSUs will still exist doing some random stuff. Defense personnel will find they pensions and benefits cut or capped. Defense acquisitions will still be a confusing and convoluted process.

There is a lot to be done,but some of the seeds of change have been sown.

The Ambanis and the Adanis can make money only when there is no competition. Keep an eye on the little-known organisation in Bengaluru making UAVs. Keep an eye on the Kalyani Group: they have more in the pipeline than is commonly known. There are manufacturers selling body armour and helmets to the whole world against competitive tenders; their capacity has not been exploited yet. There are groups within Tata who can take the entire LCH production in hand, and treble it, perhaps even make it four times. The same with tanks; we need not keep buying T90s, we can produce several times the procured numbers of Arjuna tanks, and keep modifying those as the need presents itself.

Much more is going on than we always get to read; much more is possible to be added, without any difficulty whatsoever.

 

[Aspen]

Defence budget to import weapons=Waste
Defence budget to make weapons=Power

 

[Broccoli]

Even with excess personel their ragtag army doesnt exactly give the impression of expenditures of 70 billion, when you consider UK and France are running on 50 billion each.

Both Chinese and Indians have too many soldiers so they dont have money to give good quality gear for all their soldiers. If you look new equipment their backpack straps etc are made from same material as dollar store camping gear... it looks exactly the same instead typical military stuff.

PLA wants to be like US Army but they aren't willing to cut 500.000 soldiers from their bloated army for better fighting capability.

 

[925boy]

China's military spending in 2019 is 1.19 trillion yuan, or $177.6 billion 1.3% of GDP.
News needs to point to a source, not guess.
Even at $266 billion, that's only 1.9% of GDP.

WOW China!

 

[Joe Shearer]

Both Chinese and Indians have too many soldiers so they dont have money to give good quality gear for all their soldiers. If you look new equipment their backpack straps etc are made from same material as dollar store camping gear... it looks exactly the same instead typical military stuff.

PLA wants to be like US Army but they aren't willing to cut 500.000 soldiers from their bloated army for better fighting capability.

Actually, much though it sticks in my craw, the Chinese have taken very sound steps to balance their operations. Their Army - ground forces, since all military in China is called Army - has been reduced in size considerably, and that cut has been used to reinforce, almost on a man to man basis, the Navy and the Air Force.

Your point about the quality of individual soldiers' or sailors, or airmen's equipment is valid. This has to be seen in perspective, keeping in view the massive overhang of poor quality vehicular stock, armour, ordnance, warships and aircraft that they have built up over the ages when they had much less money than today. Please don't forget that the Chinese economic miracle is about 10, at most 15 years old. Too little to splurge money lavishly; instead they are IMHO going about it right: very good equipment is coming in, and is being periodically retrofitted with contemporary components and fittings, and the old equipment is being progressively retired. Meanwhile their Navy is on an expansion mode that is positively terrifying.

 

[vishwambhar]

Most of the money goes into salaries, pensions, soilders welfare funds etc....

Allocated budget figure doesn't tell you this reality....

If we were third most defense spending country in REAL terms condition of our military would not be the same it is today.....

We are militarily one of the weakest countries in the world....

No match to even geographically smaller countries like Japan, south Korea, Pakistan, Egypt, Turkey, Israel etc.....

 

[Han Patriot]

There is a lot to be done,but some of the seeds of change have been sown.

The Ambanis and the Adanis can make money only when there is no competition. Keep an eye on the little-known organisation in Bengaluru making UAVs. Keep an eye on the Kalyani Group: they have more in the pipeline than is commonly known. There are manufacturers selling body armour and helmets to the whole world against competitive tenders; their capacity has not been exploited yet. There are groups within Tata who can take the entire LCH production in hand, and treble it, perhaps even make it four times. The same with tanks; we need not keep buying T90s, we can produce several times the procured numbers of Arjuna tanks, and keep modifying those as the need presents itself.

Much more is going on than we always get to read; much more is possible to be added, without any difficulty whatsoever.

I heard the same shit 10 years ago. What will happen is this, the private companies will import stuff and assemble it. Private companies want to make money, nobody is gonna throw in billions for research.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I heard the same shit 10 years ago. What will happen is this, the private companies will import stuff and assemble it. Private companies want to make money, nobody is gonna throw in billions for research.

Oh, good, now we can stop wasting time and go back to making money, because nothing works in India, things only work in selected locations of the world outside India.

Thank you for your insights.

Your view does not take into account the metallurgical contribution of the Kalyan Group, the owners and managers of Bharat Forge, or the aeronautical or naval architectural skills of the Tata Group, but that's all right. Nothing different expected from a Han Patriot.

 

[Robbie]

I don't expect a lot of changes in 5 years. What will happen though is the move from the PSUs to Indian-owned defence firms thanks to crony capitalism.

You will be discussing the same issues come 5 years. The only difference will be that the defense firms run by the Ambanis and Adanis would have considerably enriched themselves. Other than that, PSUs will still exist doing some random stuff. Defense personnel will find they pensions and benefits cut or capped. Defense acquisitions will still be a confusing and convoluted process.

Sadly, I think you are more right than wrong. But truthfully, I would rather have crony capitalism than PSU style crony socialism.

We need to get rid of every single PSU. This Government despite all its proclamations is as socialist as they come. The one ray of hope was Air India being privatized, but considering how COVID has destroyed the airline industry, i can bet a dollar that its not happening. So the same old $hit will continue.

 

[Han Patriot]

Oh, good, now we can stop wasting time and go back to making money, because nothing works in India, things only work in selected locations of the world outside India.

Thank you for your insights.

Your view does not take into account the metallurgical contribution of the Kalyan Group, the owners and managers of Bharat Forge, or the aeronautical or naval architectural skills of the Tata Group, but that's all right. Nothing different expected from a Han Patriot.

It's not going to be full imports of course, if they can forge metal, they sell metal, critical systems are still gonna be made by firangs.

10 years ago, I was in Bharat Rakshak, the people were laughing at the Chinese, now they want to copy our approach. Still remember they were so proud of buying the best weapon while China took the hard road of reverse engineering learning absorbing and innovating. Now the effort is only starting to bear fruits after decades of hardwork.

 

[xeuss]

Sadly, I think you are more right than wrong. But truthfully, I would rather have crony capitalism than PSU style crony socialism.

We need to get rid of every single PSU. This Government despite all its proclamations is as socialist as they come. The one ray of hope was Air India being privatized, but considering how COVID has destroyed the airline industry, i can bet a dollar that its not happening. So the same old $hit will continue.

I am not a cheerleader for PSUs. However, there is a reason PSUs have not succeeded. From incompetent leadership to political interference to corruption. We can't judge one horse is better than the other, when one horse has been handicapped for years.

 

[Robbie]

I am not a cheerleader for PSUs. However, there is a reason PSUs have not succeeded. From incompetent leadership to political interference to corruption. We can't judge one horse is better than the other, when one horse has been handicapped for years.

I completely agree with you. But we should recognize reality - the Indian political system is not likely to change and that means that the way PSUs are run is also unlikely to change.

Better a dollar or flash sale to any Ambani / Adani / XYZ than it being run by the Government of India. Time to cut losses.

It's not going to be full imports of course, if they can forge metal, they sell metal, critical systems are still gonna be made by firangs.

10 years ago, I was in Bharat Rakshak, the people were laughing at the Chinese, now they want to copy our approach. Still remember they were so proud of buying the best weapon while China took the hard road of reverse engineering learning absorbing and innovating. Now the effort is only starting to bear fruits after decades of hardwork.

Nothing succeeds like success. You do what you gotta do and the Indians who want to learn will start taking notes. It's the one thing I like about the Chinese.

India has done marginally better than Pakistan on almost all social and economic indicators. Marginally. Yet the Indians toot this horn as if they(we) invented fire. I like the Chinese approach. Keep the head down and keep growing.

That said, Xi Jinping is not like that. That was Deng to Jintao period.

 

[xeuss]

I completely agree with you. But we should recognize reality - the Indian political system is not likely to change and that means that the way PSUs are run is also unlikely to change.

Better a dollar or flash sale to any Ambani / Adani / XYZ than it being run by the Government of India. Time to cut losses.

Perhaps. But the problem I have with croney capitalism is that always the loss making section is carved out and left to the taxpayers while the Ambanis get the cherries at penny on the dollar.

Sure we may get a lean, functioning company that turns a profit. But that profit has been made for the Ambanis etc because we, the tax payers, funded it.

I have coined a new phrase for this - Socialism for the Rich