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If Liu Xiaobo was an American, they would have thrown him in jail too.

I don't think Liu should be in prison. Even if he's saying how China needs to colonized by the West and all, he shouldn't be jailed unless he's actually working towards that goal. Everybody has the freedom of speech.

That very much depends where you are.

Freedoms have always been limited, freedom has never been absolute. Even in the most free countries... if you shout "fire" in a crowded cinema, and cause a mass panic in which someone gets trampled to death... you will still be considered liable for that. Same goes for example, shouting "bomb" in an airport. You will be arrested for that, even though all you did was say something.

China has always been a more "collective" society, where the "greater good" is of paramount importance. So the balance in China is skewed less towards personal liberty, and more towards the overall health of the nation.

The trick is to create a balance between national interests and personal liberties, freedom of speech being one particular form of personal liberty. Recent examples such as Guantanamo Bay, and the "black prisons" in China, show how the balance between personal liberties and national interests can often be difficult to achieve.

Anyway, at the end of the day... you would be hard pressed to find even a single Chinese person who supports Liu Xiaobo. And that, is the only thing that really counts over here.
 
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A Counter-Productive Move
The Nobel prize for the imprisoned Chinese political dissident Liu Xiaobo, the co- author of Charter 08, could rekindle fears in China of an externally-inspired attempt to destabilise the country.

The award of the Nobel Peace Prize on October 8, 2010, to the imprisoned Chinese political dissident Liu Xiaobo, the co- author of Charter 08, a pro-democracy manifesto signed by more than 300 prominent Chinese scholars, writers, and activists and published online on Dec. 10, 2008--the 60th anniversary of the U.N. Universal Declaration of Human Rights-- could be counter-productive.

The Charter, emulating Charter 77 issued by dissidents in Soviet-era Czechoslovakia, calls for the implementation of the guarantees of China’s Constitution and for institutions in China upholding democratic reforms, human rights, and the rule of law. It warns of national disaster in the absence of political change and makes 19 recommendations to improve human rights in China, including the establishment of an independent judiciary, freedom of association and an end to one-party rule.

Instead of embarrassing the Chinese political leadership, the award has made it defiant as could be seen from the writings in the Chinese media condemning the award, which is seen as politically motivated. The Communist Party-controlled Global Times wrote in an editorial on October 9:

"The controversy in the West over Liu Xiaobo's sentence is not based on legal concerns. They are trying to impose Western values on China. Obviously, the Nobel Peace Prize this year is meant to irritate China, but it will not succeed. On the contrary, the committee disgraced itself. The award however makes it clearer that it is difficult for China to win applause from the West during China's development, and China needs to be more determined and confident in choosing its own development path, which is different from Western approach. The Nobel committee made an unwise choice, but it and the political force it represents cannot dictate China's future growth. China's success story speaks louder than the Nobel Peace Prize."

The award is also seen as another attempt to humiliate China similar to the attempt made before the Beijing Olympics of August, 2008, to organise a boycott of the opening ceremony of the Games as a mark of Western disapproval of alleged human rights violations in China. The boycott move failed partly because the then US President George Bush was opposed to any boycott which could be seen as a Western-inspired humiliation of China and partly because the indignant Chinese people called for a boycott of Western goods and Western departmental stores in China.

In an article, the same issue of the Global Times quotes Shi Yinhong, a Professor in the School of International Studies at the Renmin University of China, as saying as follows:

"The Nobel committee claims to be independent, but its decision to award the peace prize to Liu strategically caters to anti-China forces. The decision is aimed at humiliating China. Such a decision will not only draw the ire of the Chinese public, but also damage the reputation of the prize. "

The award is badly timed because it has come in the midst of a debate in China on the need for political re-structuring as a follow-up to the economic re-structuring which the country has undergone with great benefit since Deng Xiao-ping opened up the Chinese economy in 1978. Prime Minister Wen Jiabao has been in the forefront of this debate and has been increasingly articulate in calling for greater transparency in governance and greater freedom of speech which would allow constructive criticism of the way China is governed. Advocates of political re-structuring have been pointing out that ultimately the economic re-structuring would have to be followed up by political re-structuring at an opportune time when the political opening-up would not lead to political and economic instability.

The confidence gained by the political leadership as a result of the successful handling of the economic crisis, which had led to the closure of a large number of export industries and consequent loss of millions of jobs, has encouraged the debate on the need for taking up the task of political re-structuring envisaged by Deng himself. An article carried by the Global Times on August 23 pointed out:

"Wen's remarks about political reform (at Shenzhen) came 30 years after the late Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping first raised the issue during an important speech on August 18, 1980, which was regarded as "the programmatic document for China's political restructuring."

Thus, the current debate on the need for political reforms is seen as nothing but the beginning of the implementation of a promise made by Deng himself in 1980. When Wen and others speak of the need for political reforms, they do not mean the winding-up of the one-party rule as fondly hoped for by human rights activists in the West, but the identification and eradication of the negative aspects of the one-party rule. When Wen talks of the need for freedom of speech , he means freedom to constructively criticise Government policies and working instead of having to implicitly support them. How to have public accountability under a one-party rule? That is one of the questions being posed during this debate.

It would have been in the interest of the West to let this debate develop and result in a genuine re-structuring of the political set-up in China. Instead, by giving the award to a dissident who has only limited following inside China and calling for political reforms, the Nobel Committee and those supporting its award would only strengthen the hands of those who are opposing any political restructuring of the Chinese set-up.

The Chinese leadership and people are fearful of any instability which could wipe out the considerable economic gains made by the country since 1978. The decision of the Nobel Committee to honour the dissident at a time of transition in China from economic to political re-structuring could rekindle fears of an externally-inspired attempt to destabilise the country. The ultimate losers will be the advocates of political re-structuring.

www.outlookindia.com | A Counter-Productive Move
 
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NED money employed in worthwhile causes !! I am sure $135,000 a years buys a very comfortable life in China.

135000 USD per year also puts you in the top 5% of american incomes. even in the US, it will buy you a very comfortable life. Do note this is tax free money since it isn't considered "income"; even a 135000 USD income in the US would work out to be about 70000 USD after taxes, so Liu's "real" salary is actually around 200,000 USD per year, along with whatever money he gets otherwise.
 
101008-xia-vmed-6a.grid-6x2.jpg


NED money employed in worthwhile causes !! I am sure $135,000 a years buys a very comfortable life in China.

Your tax dollar at work. Don't you feel so much safer with a CIA front organization F'ing around with other countries abroad. It's not like that ever back-fired right ;)


135000 USD per year also puts you in the top 5% of american incomes. even in the US, it will buy you a very comfortable life. Do note this is tax free money since it isn't considered "income"; even a 135000 USD income in the US would work out to be about 70000 USD after taxes, so Liu's "real" salary is actually around 200,000 USD per year, along with whatever money he gets otherwise.

Being a stooge working against your own people sure pays well, as Liu and his buddy from the Tienanmen protests found out. Most of them now hold professor positions in ivy league university, despite being unexceptional students when they were in China.
 
Your tax dollar at work. Don't you feel so much safer with a CIA front organization F'ing around with other countries abroad. It's not like that ever back-fired right ;)




Being a stooge working against your own people sure pays well, as Liu and his buddy from the Tienanmen protests found out. Most of them now hold professor positions in ivy league university, despite being unexceptional students when they were in China.

"China expert". Paid to insult china. Doesn't matter, when the US breaks out into civil war, they'll be unable to return. They'll have to stay in the arena and fight for their lives. Hopefully they'll be able to convince the white racists to spare them when the time comes.
 
A Counter-Productive Move
The Nobel prize for the imprisoned Chinese political dissident Liu Xiaobo, the co- author of Charter 08, could rekindle fears in China of an externally-inspired attempt to destabilise the country.

The award of the Nobel Peace Prize on October 8, 2010, to the imprisoned Chinese political dissident Liu Xiaobo, the co- author of Charter 08, a pro-democracy manifesto signed by more than 300 prominent Chinese scholars, writers, and activists and published online on Dec. 10, 2008--the 60th anniversary of the U.N. Universal Declaration of Human Rights-- could be counter-productive.

The Charter, emulating Charter 77 issued by dissidents in Soviet-era Czechoslovakia, calls for the implementation of the guarantees of China’s Constitution and for institutions in China upholding democratic reforms, human rights, and the rule of law. It warns of national disaster in the absence of political change and makes 19 recommendations to improve human rights in China, including the establishment of an independent judiciary, freedom of association and an end to one-party rule.

Instead of embarrassing the Chinese political leadership, the award has made it defiant as could be seen from the writings in the Chinese media condemning the award, which is seen as politically motivated. The Communist Party-controlled Global Times wrote in an editorial on October 9:

"The controversy in the West over Liu Xiaobo's sentence is not based on legal concerns. They are trying to impose Western values on China. Obviously, the Nobel Peace Prize this year is meant to irritate China, but it will not succeed. On the contrary, the committee disgraced itself. The award however makes it clearer that it is difficult for China to win applause from the West during China's development, and China needs to be more determined and confident in choosing its own development path, which is different from Western approach. The Nobel committee made an unwise choice, but it and the political force it represents cannot dictate China's future growth. China's success story speaks louder than the Nobel Peace Prize."

The award is also seen as another attempt to humiliate China similar to the attempt made before the Beijing Olympics of August, 2008, to organise a boycott of the opening ceremony of the Games as a mark of Western disapproval of alleged human rights violations in China. The boycott move failed partly because the then US President George Bush was opposed to any boycott which could be seen as a Western-inspired humiliation of China and partly because the indignant Chinese people called for a boycott of Western goods and Western departmental stores in China.

In an article, the same issue of the Global Times quotes Shi Yinhong, a Professor in the School of International Studies at the Renmin University of China, as saying as follows:

"The Nobel committee claims to be independent, but its decision to award the peace prize to Liu strategically caters to anti-China forces. The decision is aimed at humiliating China. Such a decision will not only draw the ire of the Chinese public, but also damage the reputation of the prize. "

The award is badly timed because it has come in the midst of a debate in China on the need for political re-structuring as a follow-up to the economic re-structuring which the country has undergone with great benefit since Deng Xiao-ping opened up the Chinese economy in 1978. Prime Minister Wen Jiabao has been in the forefront of this debate and has been increasingly articulate in calling for greater transparency in governance and greater freedom of speech which would allow constructive criticism of the way China is governed. Advocates of political re-structuring have been pointing out that ultimately the economic re-structuring would have to be followed up by political re-structuring at an opportune time when the political opening-up would not lead to political and economic instability.

The confidence gained by the political leadership as a result of the successful handling of the economic crisis, which had led to the closure of a large number of export industries and consequent loss of millions of jobs, has encouraged the debate on the need for taking up the task of political re-structuring envisaged by Deng himself. An article carried by the Global Times on August 23 pointed out:

"Wen's remarks about political reform (at Shenzhen) came 30 years after the late Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping first raised the issue during an important speech on August 18, 1980, which was regarded as "the programmatic document for China's political restructuring."

Thus, the current debate on the need for political reforms is seen as nothing but the beginning of the implementation of a promise made by Deng himself in 1980. When Wen and others speak of the need for political reforms, they do not mean the winding-up of the one-party rule as fondly hoped for by human rights activists in the West, but the identification and eradication of the negative aspects of the one-party rule. When Wen talks of the need for freedom of speech , he means freedom to constructively criticise Government policies and working instead of having to implicitly support them. How to have public accountability under a one-party rule? That is one of the questions being posed during this debate.

It would have been in the interest of the West to let this debate develop and result in a genuine re-structuring of the political set-up in China. Instead, by giving the award to a dissident who has only limited following inside China and calling for political reforms, the Nobel Committee and those supporting its award would only strengthen the hands of those who are opposing any political restructuring of the Chinese set-up.

The Chinese leadership and people are fearful of any instability which could wipe out the considerable economic gains made by the country since 1978. The decision of the Nobel Committee to honour the dissident at a time of transition in China from economic to political re-structuring could rekindle fears of an externally-inspired attempt to destabilise the country. The ultimate losers will be the advocates of political re-structuring.

www.outlookindia.com | A Counter-Productive Move

I really wish that these people would visit China before they allege Human right abuses. I grew up in China, Germany, the US, the thought that China was an authoritarian society did not even cross my mind as a kid. China was no different from the other places I lived, and it wasn't until I moved to the US that I started heard this claptrap about how life what so very repressive in China. Go figure.
 
I don't think Liu should be in prison. Even if he's saying how China needs to colonized by the West and all, he shouldn't be jailed unless he's actually working towards that goal. Everybody has the freedom of speech.

I don't think he went to jail for saying that. He prob. did something in the background.
 
I don't think he went to jail for saying that. He prob. did something in the background.

When the 11 years is up, we should investigate him for tax evasion and/or failure to register property. That should get him another 10 years.

By the time he's out of jail he'll be 70 and no longer a threat. If we can find some other small law to get him down, he could be in jail for the rest of his life. Maybe plant some heroin in his house.
 
"China expert". Paid to insult china. Doesn't matter, when the US breaks out into civil war, they'll be unable to return. They'll have to stay in the arena and fight for their lives. Hopefully they'll be able to convince the white racists to spare them when the time comes.

I would not go as far as predicting the an American civil war but you're right, the neocons they serve will never accept them as "one of us" but only as tools that are useful here and now. Their modus operandi is to predict China's doom every 5 years, making a new prediction and new reasons why China will fail when their first predictions get proven wrong by time.

They'll also scream bloody murder at human right abuses even when some of them are the former red guard sadistically attacked the rest of society (including my grandfather and grandmother).
 
I would not go as far as predicting the an American civil war but you're right, the neocons they serve will never accept them as "one of us" but only as tools that are useful here and now. Their modus operandi is to predict China's doom every 5 years, making a new prediction and new reasons why China will fail when their first predictions get proven wrong by time.

They'll also scream bloody murder at human right abuses even when some of them are the former red guard sadistically attacked the rest of society (including my grandfather and grandmother).

there were 2 types of red guards actually. historically, the majority of red guards were volunteers who went down to the villages to teach people about socialism during the cultural revolution and to "learn from the peasants" about hard work. These were the people that truly cared about socialism. Even up to the 90's, those that had not returned to the city stayed in the villages as the local accountant or teacher.

People like Liu were those who were scared of living like the peasants so they stayed in the cities, and were the rioters. They were the ones who used socialism as a cover for violent activities, and continued theorizing about politics after the Cultural Revolution was done. The only difference was, their new theories were anti-China.
 
I think its unfair how alot of red guards have done alot of bad things but were never prosecuted for their crimes.

I heard during the cultural revolution red guards form their own factions so you have two group of red guards fighting with each other for purely political motives. They take over police stations and some of them with thousands of armed members were able to negotiate table to table with local military commanders.
 
I think its unfair how alot of red guards have done alot of bad things but were never prosecuted for their crimes.

I heard during the cultural revolution red guards form their own factions so you have two group of red guards fighting with each other for purely political motives. They take over police stations and some of them with thousands of armed members were able to negotiate table to table with local military commanders.

a very chaotic period. One word from Mao, led to thousands misunderstanding.
 
主要是学生不在乎思想,只为造乱而造乱.

And we don't want that again.
 

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