HESA Fighter Kowsar Program - Current and Next Generation

[drmeson]

 

[drmeson]

And how long ago did the avionics bought from China and from Russia become Iranian?

Why do not you provide evidence that avionics are purchased from outside?

Failure to do so will automatically imply that you are a liar and a two-bit troll (Sock as well since this is your first post)

 

[drmeson]

Almost all of Iran's "own" products are clones of Russian, Chinese, American designs.

and so does the rest of the world? Taiwanese FCK-1/T-5, Japanese F-2, Chinese FC-1/J10/Entire J11-16 series, Indian LCA, Israeli Lavi/Kfir, Denel Cheetah all inherit their design from F-5, F-16, Mirage, Flanker airframes (50s-70s).

But you came and claimed that avionics are purchased from China and Russia so we are waiting for your "proof". Or do you agree that you are a liar and a troll?

Even if you hang a 3rd generation fighter with new avionics, it will not become a 4th generation from this.

Again you are wrong.

F-5E (3.0 generation) turned into F-5G (F-20, 4.0 generation) with FBW, avionics etc the first American fourth Generation light combat aircraft of US itself along with F-16. Later this family gave out YF-17/FA-18 all fourth-generation aircraft. Are you gonna call F-20 and YF-17 as third-generation aircraft because they all came from same airframe design? ROFL

There are other cases of 2nd let along 3rd generation airframe designs being pulled into fourth-generation as well. Do you want me to list it? Mirage 2000-9 is 4+ generation and its basic airframe design comes from 1950s Mirage-3. I will give you a more extreme clue, can you guess which 2.5 Generation MIG family has turned into a 4+ generation light fighters in recent times with modifications?

Engines from the 50s

RD-33, F404 families are from the late 1960s to mid 1970s and still power the entire MIG-29/35 family along with other 4.0 generation aircrafts (I can list). I do not think you are very intelligent.

Besides the OWJ-90 that powers Kowsar is a local derivative. It's not 1960s metallurgy or other systems that are used in it. Iran ranks 9th in the world in non-self cited STEM R&D output, you think we launching 3 staged solid-fueled rockets into space, and wont know how to improve a Turbojet?

weak radar

Lol at "weak radar". IEI Bayyenat-II in Kowsar-1 is Iranian IEI domestic production of modern Grifo 346. It can track even a small-sized target from 93-94 KM and merely weighs ~85 KG so fighter has better pitch mobility. It has SAR mapping as well as, ECM/ECCM control so it is not Jammed easily. The fact that IEI is producing it inside Iran and integrating it with so much confidence means that the next variant will be Grifo-E AESA equivalent.

on M-346

outdated airframe

This airframe has an RCS = 1 m2, which means it in frontal engagement it will see and track a MIG-29S (9.13) and launch ARH BVR missiles at it and leave even before the MIGs heavy Phazatron will even realize what just happened. It's also a very maneuverable airframe design that has brought down F-14 and F-15 in mock dogfights (challenge me and I will plaster words of US aviators).

Also, the airframe may look like an F-5E/F but its all newly built with the use of composites (See page 1) at wings, tail and has an customized FBW to control actuators. Your whole claim is a joke TBH.

This is just an attempt to reassure ourselves, even block 30 of Turkey can easily overcome this misunderstanding

Thanks for confirming that you are a Turkish Sock larping as an Maltese girl.

With its encrypted datalink with ground-based search OTHRs and AESA Tracking radars, this fighter can launch a BVR attack on any 4th generation aircraft. IRIAF uses an integrated GCI battle group design for engagement so multiple Kowsar-1, F-14AM with their Fakour-90 BVR (5+ Mach, 150 KM range) and MIG-29 (R-73E+R27R1 BVR) will be in the arena guided by network of precision tracking radars on ground and SHORADS. Good luck dealing with this group.

I will not say anything about the EF-2000, Rafale, F-16 block 60 / I

You have zero knowledge of aviation. The aircrafts you mentioned will also murder the following in one on one:

FCK-1
F2
AIDC T-5
FC-1
LCA
F-16 Blk 15/20/30
MIG-29 9.13

But still the world is flying these light combat jets because they are cheaper to maintain, easy on the budget to provide patrols, and can supplement heavier platforms in integrated interception design.

Kowsar I is a stop-gap for us. Kowsar-II in a few years carrying AESA, HOTA, etc will fly with MIG-35/SU-35 supported on the ground by S-300 PMU2 and whatever version of TVC Bavar-373 will be there at that time.

Lol. Indonesia will buy KOREAN 4.5 gen. F-313 is a piece of shit without any chance to break the sound barrier.

And Iran operates 3 staged MaRV IRBM that can deliver a 20 KT yield fission device ? Stop posting random BS, please. I do not care what Indonesia will purchase.

F-313 is a mockup and a concept. Turkey, Indonesia, India have also come up with their reduced RCS mockups. Let's see which one flies earlier.

But hey we are still waiting for your proof that Avionics for Kowsar is purchased from China and Russia? Or you agree that you lied without substance?

 

[aryobarzan]

.

Lol. J85 is very old and useless engines. Such as ATAR-9 and other. M346 is NOT fighter, is AT plane.
Fakour-90 is a copy of AIM-54A and this missile could be carry only by F-14.

I'm NOT Turkish, but u have conflict with them. And Saudi, and Israeli. But the Turkish Air Force is the weakest enemy, that's why I mentioned them.

F-313 is piece of shit without any signs of the 5th generation. The Turks are helped by the British, and Indonesia has overdue all payments, which is why the Koreans scolded them. And yet, such aircraft as Kfir, Lavi were created ON the BASIS of foreign designs, but you copied the F-5 and shout about a breakthrough. Okay, this is a breakthrough, but for the 80s.

Listen buddy...You just registered your account today so that you come over and give us some verbal diarrhea of your brain farts.... Keep clear or I will not be this nice to you again...

 

[aryobarzan]

I have been reading this forum for over a year before registering. Dude, it's just ridiculous how your country tries to speak loudly about what it doesn't have.

Thank you..but we do not need your opinion...We know what we have and we are happy about that...goodbye...

PS: learn how to talk to strangers..it will do you a lots of good.!

 

[aryobarzan]

Already learned. But how can you normally talk to those who pass off an old American aircraft as the 4th generation?

who care what generation it is...It flys..that is more than anything anyone has fielded in our neighbourhood...

 

[aryobarzan]

Isn't it easier to just buy a license from the Russians for the production of the MiG-29.35 than to suffer with a deliberately outdated platform?

That is your opinion....If you ask me that is not how a country develops Aviation industry..and I worked 35 years on US and Canadian aviation industry..so I may know few things about AC.

 

[drmeson]

I'm NOT Turkish, but u have conflict with them. And Saudi, and Israeli. But the Turkish Air Force is the weakest enemy, that's why I mentioned them.

Ozur delirim istanbullu Ahmet aka "Stella" beyaz tenli kizlari sever misiniz? soru acik ve net ... incel

And btw we have zero problems with Turkey. It is one of our largest trade partners. We share history and blood too. There is zero conflict, if there will be in the future, IRGC will destroy every single airbase inside Turkey within 20 mins. They made a mess of giant American bases in Iraq, and Saudi installations. What would stop them from taking on anyone else.

.

Lol. J85 is very old and useless engines. Such as ATAR-9 and other. M346 is NOT fighter, is AT plane.

So you failed to respond to the entire post. Good to know you lost the argument like any other dwarf sock+troll

Still, waiting for your proof of avionics purchase from China and Russia???

M346 is NOT fighter, is AT plane.

The same Phaztoron/NIIP radars that YAK-131 flies with also find their place in the noses of MIG-29/Su-27. The fact that yak-131 is an AT means MIG-29/Su-27 have also become AT by your stupid logic?

Kowsar has zero connection with M346 except the radar origin. this particular radar is most advanced in the entire GRIFO brochure just below the GRIFO E AESA which I assume will be Bayyenat-III, produced in Iran.

Fakour-90 is a copy of AIM-54A and this missile could be carry only by F-14.

ROFL the motor, the seeker, SARH guidance, and Aerodynamics all are different from AIM-54.

F-313 is piece of shit without any signs of the 5th generation. The Turks are helped by the British, and Indonesia has overdue all payments, which is why the Koreans scolded them. And yet, such aircraft as Kfir, Lavi were created ON the BASIS of foreign designs, but you copied the F-5 and shout about a breakthrough. Okay, this is a breakthrough, but for the 80s.
F-20 became the 4th generation thanks primarily to the engine.

Turkish can open their legs for British or whoever they want to get engines for all we care. We have zero concern for their military procurements. Your country, your choice. good luck to you guys.

But since you ran away from every question asked before I will list them here.

- You mentioned Kowsar Avionics are purchased from Russia and China? Provide evidence

That is your opinion....If you ask me that is not how a country develops Aviation industry..and I worked 35 years on US and Canadian aviation industry..so I may know few things about AC.

I say we leave these stupid troll boys from across the border as they like to be. They will see a radar-less MIG-29U trainer and think its a great fighter because it looks "good" but F-5TH Super Tigris with AESA and HOTAS will look inferior to them because oh its an F-5.

 

[Hack-Hook]

Fakour-90 is a copy of AIM-54A and this missile could be carry only by F-14.

now I'm sure you don't knew what fakour-90 is

Already learned. But how can you normally talk to those who pass off an old American aircraft as the 4th generation?

explain to me one thing.
our 3rd of khordad and buk-m2 look the same , but 3rd of khordad can engage target 120km away and buk-m2 only 40km away . our 3rd of Khordad can engage enemy 70km away without turning on its radar but Buk-m2 even at 20km needs its radar .
are you suggesting they are the same system

Isn't it easier to just buy a license from the Russians for the production of the MiG-29.35 than to suffer with a deliberately outdated platform?

I like to knew how you reach to the conclusion that Mig-29 avionic is more advanced than Kowsar

 

[drmeson]

I like to knew how you reach to the conclusion that Mig-29 avionic is more advanced than Kowsar

In a frontal engagement, even a MIG-29A/S 9.12/9.13 won't even see a Kowsar by the time it would have been tracked and fired upon by Bayyenat-II/Grifo 346. Even if the MIG comes near, Kowsar is not a piece of cake in a dogfight. F-5E is known to have locked the hell out of F-15/F-14/F-18 in mock dogfights in US.

 

[Indos]

Lol. Indonesia will buy KOREAN 4.5 gen. F-313 is a piece of shit without any chance to break the sound barrier.

KF21/IFX program is joint venture between Korea and Indonesia

I will bring what happened during first phase of development that started in 2011


Translation from Google translate:

February 6, 2014 (Angkasa/Space Magazine)

KFX / IFX program continued , Government Asked to Immediately Selecting Design

Korea was once considered Indonesia engineer do not understand about the design of a jet fighter. But the notion was quickly turned , when the Indonesian team describes the design and the various inputs. The Indonesian side also the one who finally managed to convince that the aircraft take-off weight of 50,000 pounds must .

Confirmation of the Parliament of South Korea on the resumption of the program KFX / IFX team warmly welcomed designers from Indonesia. They include asking both governments immediately call the engineers involved in preparing work that has been long overdue. They also want the governments of both countries to make sure one of the two designs that have been produced in the Technology Development phase for cultivation in the next phase .

"Program KFX / IFX is a multi - program years , costly, and involve various sectors and foreign partners. For that there must be a definite declaration on it goes. For Indonesia it is important to determine the financing schemes and their human resources planning, "said Dr Rais Zain, M. Eng , KFX / IFX Configuration Design Leader for Angkasa , in late January.

"In the near future Indonesia will also work on the N219 and R - 80. We do not have enough engineers to work three programs, especially KFX / IFX will take place until the 2020s. The government is expected to call home engineers who are now working abroad to come help the regeneration process. Outside there are approximately 200 people . If half of it can be returned to the country, it is enough to help, " added Rais who is also a lecturer at the Faculty of Aerospace Engineering ITB, Bandung.

As reported by the national media, the confirmation of the continuation of the program of making front - liner Korean - Indonesian fighter jets received by the Ministry of Defense on January 3, 2014. Notice is further announced Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro told reporters, Wednesday, January 8, 2014, on the sidelines of Rapim Kemenhan in Jakarta. Explanations related to exposure delivered weapon system procurement plans in the Strategic Plan II, 2015-2019.

The Indonesian government hopes the project of making the 4.5 generation fighter jet could be done because it would be a referral program to remove the dependence of the transfer of technology from other countries. Besides KFX / IFX, Indonesia is also pursuing a program of making submarines , warships, propellants , rockets, and tank size medium. For submarines, Indonesia is also cooperating with the same country.

Superior to the Su - 35 Program, KFX / IFX was stopped temporarily by Korea's new leader Park Geun - Hye end of 2012 after reviewing the state financially in the country. This prestigious project was worked on since the beginning of 2011, shortly after President Lee Myung - bak and President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono confirmed the bilateral cooperation in the defense field in Jakarta. From the Technology Development Phase that has been completed, a team of scientists has completed a number of conical design that later became two.

The two designs is a model of the stealth fighter jet -winning twin-engine air superiority with horizontally - tails in the back, and the other one is with canards on the front. "Each has consequences different financing and partners. Thus , it must first be decided which one is selected. It is important that when followed, all parties are ready to do it , "said Rais Zain , whose day-to- day lecturer at the Faculty of Engineering, Aerospace Engineering,ITB, Bandung.

As stated Wamenhan Sjafrie, Korean parliament has prepared 20 million U.S. dollars (temporary , Indonesia : $ 5 million) to continue this program in 2015. At that time , the team will go to the Engineering Manufacturing Development Phase. In addition must have a high thrust engine with a power to be able to fight in the air, the aircraft must also have weapons stored in the internal weapons bay , the data - link capable of randomizing communications, advanced radar target voters, and anti - jamming device.

The prototype is expected to finish by the end of the Strategic Plan II . Even if there are things that need to be criticized , it is a matter of operation requirements are much more determined the Korean Air Force . This was inevitable because the Korean bear 80 percent of the funding, and the country actually have a real enemy. This program is targeted to spawn a jet fighter with performance equivalent or superior to the opponent fighter jets which are the Sukhoi Su - 35.

Prerequisites requirement dismissed the proposed counter designs by KAI ( Korean Aerospace Industrie) recently, which is intended to cut development costs. In the configuration ( see Space, December 2013 ), looks KFX type E is only one engine powered with weapons outside the radar sweep prone opponent.

Angkasa examine admiration of ADD ( Agency for Defense Development, Defence Research and Development Agency of Korea ) submitted to the Indonesian engineer team. Initially, the team assumes Korea really had no idea about the design of Indonesian fighter jets.

However, the assumption was turned when Indonesian engineers began to describe the design and the various inputs to the design of Korea. The Indonesian side also who ultimately ensure that the aircraft must have a takeoff weight of 50,000 pounds.(A.Darmawan/Angkasa magazine).

Source

Program KFX/IFX Dilanjutkan, Pemerintah Diminta Segera Memilih Desain

Angkasa Online - Majalah Aviasi dan Militer

web.archive.org

2 Basic design of KFX/IFX C 100 and C 200 posted by credible South Korean Defense related blog, Naver in 2012. Look the year 2012, it is before KAI Korea joint the program since 2015.

Indonesian wind tunnel facility

​

Indonesia delays payment for S. Korea's fighter development project​

All News 11:49 October 07, 2019

"Despite such a delay in payment, the Indonesian side has continued to send its researchers to South Korea to take part in the development process," Rep. Kim Joong-ro of the minor opposition Bareunmirae Party said during a parliamentary audit into the administration, voicing concern about technology leaks.

As of July, 114 Indonesian engineers were sent to South Korea to work with Korea Aerospace Industries Co. (KAI), the country's sole aircraft manufacturer, to design and make a prototype of the fighter, according to a DAPA official.

Indonesia delays payment for S. Korea's fighter development project | Yonhap News Agency

SEOUL, Oct. 7 (Yonhap) -- Indonesia is in arrears on its payment obligations for a joint p...

en.yna.co.kr

Indonesian design engineers only come home to Indonesia after the design process is completed in September 2019, but they are still working for double seat design work in Bandung, Indonesia. They come home in March 2020 when the prototype has been working on and our technicians in production division has been send to South Korea since 2021 while some KF21 prototypes fuselage components are made in Indonesia Aerospace production facility since 2020 ( see the document in sticky KFX/IFX thread in Far East section )

 

[Indos]

F-313 is a mockup and a concept. Turkey, Indonesia, India have also come up with their reduced RCS mockups. Let's see which one flies earlier.

But hey we are still waiting for your proof that Avionics for Kowsar is purchased from China and Russia? Or you agree that you lied without substance?

KF 21 is not a mockup anymore, some prototytpes have been tested ( static test ), July 2022 inshaAllah is the first flight.

Single seat prototypes

Double seats

 

[drmeson]

KF 21 is not a mockup anymore, some prototytpes have been tested ( static test ), July 2022 inshaAllah is the first flight.

Single seat prototypes

View attachment 855068

Double seats

View attachment 855066

was talking about 5th gen mockups. KF-21 is a 4.5 or 4++ gen on the grounds that it lacks internal bays. When it gets them it will enter the 5th gen realm.

 

[Hack-Hook]

F-5E is known to have locked the hell out of F-15/F-14/F-18 in mock dogfights in US.

to be fair it happened when experienced pilots used f-5 as an aggressor against newer generation pilots with far less experience

Copypaste of Phoenix. Such is fatter-is copy of Sidewinder. The MiG-29 is a time-tested platform and certainly the 4th generation, which the F-5 clone cannot be.

honnestly why you insist making a laughing stock of yourself , go and read what is posted in related thread about it . it has different size , different engine and different seeker . and fatter have twice the range of any sidewinder.
what ever , in Iran airforce thread several page back i went in detail about Mig-29 Radar if you want to educate yourself go and read it , by the way wonder in which war that tested platform ever show itself as a capable fighter against other airplanes

 

[Hack-Hook]

The Jews hung their Kfir (Actually Mirage 5 with a different engine and canards) with new avionics, but this did not make it the 4th generation. It's just 3.5, like the Soviet MiG-23MLD and early JF-17s.

still didn't answer my question , is 3rd of Khordad and Buk-m2 same air defense system and which is more capable ?