Has Pak. been sidelined by the Indo-Afgh. Strategic Agreement?

[karan.1970]

What Afghans don't realize is that we're expecting them to militarily help India in attacking Pakistan in the event of a war. It becomes a moot point whether or not we have a right to interfere in Afghanistan since we do have a right to defend Pakistan.

If Afghanistan cannot make us feel comfortable enough fully knowing we have power over them then that doesn't show them to be very smart. It's not a matter of how dare they go to India, it's more like "Oh so you wanna screw us over eh? We'll show you".

The tussle opens up and its been Pakistan's policy to never start a fight but once started, we decide the level of intensity this fight should go on to.

So Afghanistan is asking for a fight from Pakistan when you cut through the BS, thats all that you are left with.

So in a nutshell, you want to control Afghanistan's actions because of your own insecurities (logical or not) and due to the fact that you are more powerful than them.. And then you go, cry a river when Americans bombs the cr@p out of your tribal regions. Well, they have the same reasons.. If you are not able to make them feel comfortable enough fully knowing they have power over you, then that doesn't show you to be very smart. Its not the matter of whether you are intentionally aiding the terrorists or not, its more like, "Oh, so people from your country are going to attack American interests, then your sovereignty be damned, we will bomb wherever we want"

See, this cuts both ways...

 

[Vinod2070]

^^ Funny thing is, a lot of the same people take a lot of pride in calling Afghanistan "graveyard of empires".

Then they claim that they have power over them, a power which supposedly even the Superpowers don't!

Something is sure rotten here.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

funny thing is the indians are accusing us of something they are out to try and achieve themselves

 

[Vinod2070]

India is not trying to control Afghanistan.

Just helping it avoid being in permanent civil war and a source of terror in the region. The objectives and scope are totally different.

 

[karan.1970]

funny thing is the indians are accusing us of something they are out to try and achieve themselves

Nah! we are just trying to train them to make it a quicker graveyard in case their twin brother tries to do some hanky panky after 2024 when NATO leaves

 

[Awesome]

So in a nutshell, you want to control Afghanistan's actions because of your own insecurities (logical or not) and due to the fact that you are more powerful than them.. And then you go, cry a river when Americans bombs the cr@p out of your tribal regions. Well, they have the same reasons.. If you are not able to make them feel comfortable enough fully knowing they have power over you, then that doesn't show you to be very smart. Its not the matter of whether you are intentionally aiding the terrorists or not, its more like, "Oh, so people from your country are going to attack American interests, then your sovereignty be damned, we will bomb wherever we want"

See, this cuts both ways...

America is someone who is out of this region. It can pack up and leave.

Afghanistan can't go anywhere, Pakistan can't go anywhere. We can afford to not toe the American line. Can Afghanistan afford not to toe the Pakistani line?

You may call them insecurities, I call them hard facts on the ground. There is national animosity towards America, there is a very real problem of ours with India. We will play it safe all we ask in return is not to screw us over.

---------- Post added at 06:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:18 PM ----------

^^ Funny thing is, a lot of the same people take a lot of pride in calling Afghanistan "graveyard of empires".

Then they claim that they have power over them, a power which supposedly even the Superpowers don't!

Something is sure rotten here.

Depends on your definition of Afghan.

Our Afghan is the majority Afghan, your Afghan is not the majority Afghan.

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

Here's a nice map to outline my opinion on this whole affair:

You've got a landlocked country trying to play ball, when in fact, India can only do anything for them THROUGH Pakistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Ok let me put it directly - Do you think Pakistan is being sidelined in Afg or not ?

A simple direct Yes/No would suffice.

It is not being 'sidelined', if by 'sidelined' you mean to suggest that Pakistan has a 'decreased role/influence' in Afghanistan currently, compared to the initial years of the US occupation of Afghanistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Why would a decision on a sovereign country's government or a reconciliation plan with its insurgents require Pakistan's additional consultations over and above the normal discussions where all Afghanistan's neighbors were involved..like the one in Turkey and London.. Why would honoring Pakistan's sensitivities involve compromising on Afghanistan's sovereignty ??

You are digressing from the discussion in the same manner as KS - I am not arguing over the veracity of Pakistan's policy positions WRT Afghanistan, I am pointing out that Pakistan never had a significant role/influence in Afghanistan post US invasion in 2001, so technically Pakistan was 'sidelined' back in 2001 - nothing has 'changed for the worse', in terms of Pakistan's role/influence in Afghanistan, since then.

The trust of both USA and Afghanistan. The 2nd one wasnt in place to begin with.. the 1st one has deteriorated over time from 2001 till now with the recent events being the tipping point.

Pakistan never had the 'trust' of either the US Administration or the Afghan governments propped up by the US - if we had had 'trust', then that 'trust' would have manifested itself in Pakistan obtaining a larger role and influence in Afghanistan post 2001. The only thing that existed before were platitudes meant to cloak the sidelining of Pakistan, in an effort to make Pakistan cooperate more in exchange for mere platitudes.

Now, since platitudes have not worked to win more Pakistani support, the tone has changed to one of confrontation in order to win more Pakistani support, but the policies on the ground remain almost identical.

There are degrees of public sentiment and govt sentiment and things are never in binary.. But I guess you know that already.. What Pakistan has lost is that it has slipped a few notches lower on the trust and alliance scale for both NATO/USA and Afghanistan and every slipped notch brings with it, its own set of disadvantages/lost opportunities

See my arguments above - Pakistan never had any tangible benefit from the supposed 'relatively positive sentiment' it enjoyed before.

If an individual's behavior/actions towards me are going to remain the same regardless of whether that individual 'hates me or loves me', then why should I care whether that individual 'loves me or hates me'?

 

[Vinod2070]

Our Afghan is the majority Afghan, your Afghan is not the majority Afghan.

Your Afghan has never been the so called "graveyard of empires" in any case. So the point of majority is moot.

 

[karan.1970]

Here's a nice map to outline my opinion on this whole affair:

You've got a landlocked country trying to play ball, when in fact, India can only do anything for them THROUGH Pakistan.

and Iran and a bunch of CAR countries..

 

[mughaljee]

how could Pakistan keeps himself quite ?

 

[Tshering22]

These artificial 'agreements' are not for so long.

As soon as US/NATO leave that country, the power will again be in the hands of locals and you know whom they would prefer.

That mayor of Kabul can sign as many agreements as he wants but we all know what will happen in the end.

The idea is that we will ensure Taliban never return even if it means getting anyone else on the board. But be sure of this; US will target Pakistan before leaving. Drone attacks will only increase as frustration on not containing terrorist units by your intelligence mounts. The more you refuse, the worse the intrusions will get. It will never reach a state of war but yes, it will do worse damage.

 

[Awesome]

Your Afghan has never been the so called "graveyard of empires" in any case. So the point of majority is moot.

There are Afghans that are graveyards?

 

[Dalai Lama]

One observation after these new developments. The Afghans seem to be doing a better job of playing it cool. Or maybe Kazrai was taking a jibe. Testing the water maybe...