‘Gone too far’: Meet the Dutch chips giant that Silicon Valley loves and Biden fears

[jamahir]

Only "if wishes were horses, beggars would ride."

Here's what happened to Pakistan's second attempt to set up it's own made in Pakistan car industry.

The Story of Adam Revo - CarSpiritPK

The story of Adam Revo, a second attempt by a Pakistani to come up with a homegrown car without government support

carspiritpk.com

Wishes will come true through radical thought. That car was a conventional vehicle which had nothing special that others didn't. And neither was its company proposing a system-level change in Pakistan. We shouldn't be using examples to speak of precedents but look at SpaceX which first spoke of reusable rockets and reusable human-carrying space capsules which could carry seven people. Look where SpaceX is now. Look at another American spacecraft company which took the concept of reusable rockets to another level and built its first rocket Terran 1 using the world's largest 3D Printer which allowed much flexibility in the production. So non-conventional thinking is required. Wishes will come true and beggars will ride.

Please go through the below thread of mine which other than the main theme also speaks of a new type of transport called cyclorotor which is future of many types of public transport on Earth :

Making the case for a global ban on privately-owned personal transport cars and two-wheelers

I have often made this topic in posts so I thought why not create a thread for this for discussion and readership. Privately-owned personal transport vehicles ( cars and two-wheelers ) are I believe the biggest form of pollution in the world, directly through their usage and secondarily through...

defence.pk

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

.... We shouldn't be using examples to speak of precedents but look at SpaceX which first spoke of reusable rockets and reusable human-carrying space capsules which could carry seven people. ...

You are aware Elon Musk is South African who migrated to thd US? He didnt launch SpaceX in South Africa.

How could he? South Africa didn't have any of the space related infrastructure on a scale that he could use to launch his reusable rocket business.

 

[jamahir]

You are aware Elon Musk is South African who migrated to thd US? He didnt launch SpaceX in South Africa.

How could he? South Africa didn't have any of the space related infrastructure on a scale that he could use to launch his reusable rocket business.

Nevertheless Elon started a company in an American industry that was the monopoly of traditional big organizations like NASA and Boeing who were working in the conventional fashion. He did different and changed the industry there and now even space organizations in China and India have projects or plans for reusable rockets.

 

[ssethii]

From the article :

And what would clever be ? It would not be like India to establish a conventional 7.5 billion fab with assistance of Taiwan. It would not be jumping on the RISC-V processor wagon like most are doing. Clever would be for Pakistan to do five simplifications :

1. Design its own processor architecture and OS from scratch.

2. Within the processor make the processor's transistors different to the current popular ones. These different ones would be the ones I spoke of the NASA project in the OP and how they can prototyped like I said in post# 3. Ignore the two non-thinkers who did a ha ha react to that post.

3. Once a prototype is realized establish a pilot fab that can output even 50 such processors a month and use them in government and scientific applications. Since you are starting from scratch you won't need to pour millions in buying a ASML lithography machine since through innovation and cleverness you will have built a new type of chip production machine yourself and with the help of your allies.

4. Work with your allies to establish a bigger fab that can output more number of such chips which can be used in the consumer market.

5. Instead of the boring cell phone design your own wearable computer which will use your own designed WiFi-based communication system. Mass produce this with your allies.

Further, in this post I made couple of hours ago I wrote about my understanding of the future of computing at least in 2025.

If Pakistan's many computer engineers cannot do this then well, they are truly a waste.

And "talented and far-seeing" Pakistanis like @ssethii can help in these projects.

First of all, we don't have a desire to reinvent the wheel just to satisfy some egos or win an argument over the internet. It's in our national psyche to remain humble and thank God for any achievement.
Secondly, we have access to fabs in china to meet the limited requirements of our industry, I'm not sure if there is any serious requirement from within Pakistan, to begin with as anything you might want to develop chances are they have been developed earlier and can be easily sourced in most cases.
Thirdly, we may go for a fab to fulfill our defense needs which arise purely from a security point of view but that still won't require any new work on ISA or reinventing the wheel. Most of the custom designs are ASIC-based but for processing requirements, we can easily adapt existing ISA for hardware design and open-source operating systems for software design. Even university grads are designing single instruction processors nowadays using RISC-V architecture thanks to its inherent design features for rapid deployment.
Finally, you have no idea the amount of work that goes into developing these things from scratch that is why I consider writing long posts in for you a waste of time.

 

[jamahir]

Even university grads are designing single instruction processors nowadays using RISC-V architecture thanks to its inherent design features for rapid deployment.

RISC-V is becoming boring. I still say, if you personally can't design a processor from scratch and stubbornly won't listen to sensible points from others such as from me then you must question if you are simply wasting what you learnt or you will simply have to unlearn some things.

 

[nahtanbob]

From the article :

And what would clever be ? It would not be like India to establish a conventional 7.5 billion fab with assistance of Taiwan. It would not be jumping on the RISC-V processor wagon like most are doing. Clever would be for Pakistan to do five simplifications :

1. Design its own processor architecture and OS from scratch.

2. Within the processor make the processor's transistors different to the current popular ones. These different ones would be the ones I spoke of the NASA project in the OP and how they can prototyped like I said in post# 3. Ignore the two non-thinkers who did a ha ha react to that post.

3. Once a prototype is realized establish a pilot fab that can output even 50 such processors a month and use them in government and scientific applications. Since you are starting from scratch you won't need to pour millions in buying a ASML lithography machine since through innovation and cleverness you will have built a new type of chip production machine yourself and with the help of your allies.

4. Work with your allies to establish a bigger fab that can output more number of such chips which can be used in the consumer market.

5. Instead of the boring cell phone design your own wearable computer which will use your own designed WiFi-based communication system. Mass produce this with your allies.

Further, in this post I made couple of hours ago I wrote about my understanding of the future of computing at least in 2025.

If Pakistan's many computer engineers cannot do this then well, they are truly a waste.

And "talented and far-seeing" Pakistanis like @ssethii can help in these projects.

It is utter waste of time reinventing the wheel.

processors, operating systems and networks are not an end in itself.

using those to solve human, commercial and scientific problems is more interesting

you bring up a point in terms of dependence on foreign suppliers. sorry we are in an interdependent world. lot of countries will never be independent of foreign suppliers. That includes a large country like India or maybe even China

 

[jamahir]

It is utter waste of time reinventing the wheel.

Sometimes it is needed. My recent thread about a literal take of that :

This company is reinventing the Wheel and ditching the rubber tire

This Company is Reinventing the Wheel and Ditching the Rubber Tire Nick Thomas Wed, October 13, 2021, 6:41 PM·3 min read Global Air Cylinder Wheels (GACW), an Arizona-based startup, has literally reinvented the wheel. They developed a new type of wheel that ditches the need for pollutive...

defence.pk

And SpaceX's reusable launch rockets also reinvented something.

processors, operating systems and networks are not an end in itself.

Then why did the RISC-V processor come into being ? I don't know the technical innovations it has but it is an open source processor architecture which originated in an American university and has now become a global phenomena because it presents an economic difference.

using those to solve human, commercial and scientific problems is more interesting

I agree but what is the point of India having at least two million computer engineers, one computing company being 50 years old and another 40 and these two companies being very rich in a Capitalist way if they are unable to design a single processor, OS and storage method ? What is the point of all those Chinese PhDs from Tsinghua University which our Chinese members brag about if they can't do the same ?

you bring up a point in terms of dependence on foreign suppliers. sorry we are in an interdependent world. lot of countries will never be independent of foreign suppliers. That includes a large country like India or maybe even China

Sure but as long as there is no true dissolving of national borders some countries are going to profit unjustly from selling manufacturing machines for say processors like ASML company of Holland. In the OP and later I also make the point of a large country like India to do innovation in processor fabrication by adopting that NASA research about miniaturizing the vacuum tube computer concept and including sapphire as part of the processor material ( which two will make the processor inherently radiation tolerant ), so these two inclusions will need to be done by machinery which generally is not there at large scale and if a large country like India installs such machinery instead of getting Taiwan to install the conventional machinery in India for 7.5 billion dollars it will be much cheaper, respect-worthy and innovative.

 

[nahtanbob]

And SpaceX's reusable launch rockets also reinvented something.

state organizations won't share their rocket technology with a private firm under any circumstance

Sometimes it is needed. My recent thread about a literal take of that :

This company is reinventing the Wheel and ditching the rubber tire

This Company is Reinventing the Wheel and Ditching the Rubber Tire Nick Thomas Wed, October 13, 2021, 6:41 PM·3 min read Global Air Cylinder Wheels (GACW), an Arizona-based startup, has literally reinvented the wheel. They developed a new type of wheel that ditches the need for pollutive...

defence.pk

Then why did the RISC-V processor come into being ? I don't know the technical innovations it has but it is an open source processor architecture which originated in an American university and has now become a global phenomena because it presents an economic difference.

I agree but what is the point of India having at least two million computer engineers, one computing company being 50 years old and another 40 and these two companies being very rich in a Capitalist way if they are unable to design a single processor, OS and storage method ? What is the point of all those Chinese PhDs from Tsinghua University which our Chinese members brag about if they can't do the same ?

Sure but as long as there is no true dissolving of national borders some countries are going to profit unjustly from selling manufacturing machines for say processors like ASML company of Holland. In the OP and later I also make the point of a large country like India to do innovation in processor fabrication by adopting that NASA research about miniaturizing the vacuum tube computer concept and including sapphire as part of the processor material ( which two will make the processor inherently radiation tolerant ), so these two inclusions will need to be done by machinery which generally is not there at large scale and if a large country like India installs such machinery instead of getting Taiwan to install the conventional machinery in India for 7.5 billion dollars it will be much cheaper, respect-worthy and innovative.

being in India you understand state run enterprises are inefficient than private entities. if I am a private entity I can going pursue opportunities that produced the highest return with the least risk. a lot of stuff you describe do not have a high commercial ROI and a high risk

 

[jamahir]

state organizations won't share their rocket technology with a private firm under any circumstance

In what context about SpaceX are you saying this ?

being in India you understand state run enterprises are inefficient than private entities. if I am a private entity I can going pursue opportunities that produced the highest return with the least risk. a lot of stuff you describe do not have a high commercial ROI and a high risk

But in the USSR maybe all science and technological enterprises were state-run and they gave good output. Compare that to India where the inefficiency and risk-averse methodology in state-run enterprises is not because they are state-run but because unfortunately they work within the risk-averse and generally anti-innovative traditional culture of India therefore a very rich private enterprise like Reliance Industries whose owner, Mukesh Ambani, has an obscene 27-storey two-billion dollar home in Bombay, this company isn't quite like SpaceX or Apple or the much smaller American private company Relativity Space which is already building reusable rockets.

Being an Indian I will tell you that Indians in technology do not generally innovate but will adopt a technology from outside if it sells in the outside market even if it is nonsense like privately-owned cars and two-wheelers. But I am happy that since 2013 there are three private space launch companies, two of which are building launch rockets ( for satellites at the moment ) and one is developing an in-space propulsion system that uses water as propellant.

 

[Jinn Baba]

May be its because I'm hungry, but I came here fully expecting to read about some amazing potato chips definitely need my morning caffeine before opening any more threads

 

[nahtanbob]

In what context about SpaceX are you saying this ?



But in the USSR maybe all science and technological enterprises were state-run and they gave good output. Compare that to India where the inefficiency and risk-averse methodology in state-run enterprises is not because they are state-run but because unfortunately they work within the risk-averse and generally anti-innovative traditional culture of India therefore a very rich private enterprise like Reliance Industries whose owner, Mukesh Ambani, has an obscene 27-storey two-billion dollar home in Bombay, this company isn't quite like SpaceX or Apple or the much smaller American private company Relativity Space which is already building reusable rockets.

Being an Indian I will tell you that Indians in technology do not generally innovate but will adopt a technology from outside if it sells in the outside market even if it is nonsense like privately-owned cars and two-wheelers. But I am happy that since 2013 there are three private space launch companies, two of which are building launch rockets ( for satellites at the moment ) and one is developing an in-space propulsion system that uses water as propellant.

I will not talk on this open forum about my projects in computing.

technology to launch space vehicles and ICBMs have some overlap

In USSR failure to produce will land you in the gulag. do you want to go that route ?

 

[jamahir]

technology to launch space vehicles and ICBMs have some overlap

Yet SpaceX and Relativity Space and at least one Indian and Chinese companies have either tested a engine or a land-landing rocket.

In USSR failure to produce will land you in the gulag.

Come on, that will be as true as you believing that Bashar al Assad having no support of the Sunnis.

There will have been numerous engineers. scientists and designers who will have failed in their attempts to produce various technologies. For example watch this short documentary about an unusual sea-going ground-effect anti-submarine aircraft called VVA-14. The doc also speaks about the designer's plan for a flying aircraft carrier. As some of the vid's comments noted, the USSR many a time thought outside the box. The VVA-14 project failed after the designer's death ( natural causes ) and I don't think the project's other people were sent away to the gulag.