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Egyptian Struggle-Updates and Discussions

Egypt's rights groups get temporary reprieve | World news | The Guardian

The Egyptian government has delayed plans to shut down dozen of rights groups if they refuse to accept restrictive regulations.

Rights defenders had until Tuesday to agree to government interference or face closure. But after a fierce international backlash the deadline was delayed on Sunday until November.

The temporary reprieve is of scant comfort to the threatened parties, who fear it merely delays the inevitable. Local and international human rights defenders, including Amnesty International, say the ultimatum is the finishing touch to a year-long crackdown on dissent and an attempt to silence Egypt's remaining opposition voices.

"This is still a declaration of war against the independent human rights organisations," said Mohamed Zaree, programme director at the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies (CIHRS), one of the groups under threat. "The aim of the government is to shut down the public sphere and the horizons that were opened by the revolution in 2011. They want to shut down the last voices calling for accountability for human rights violations, and the last critics of the narrative the government puts forward about Egypt to the international community."

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Egypt's Al-Sisi Establishes Tyranny Mubarak Only Dreamed Of: Washington Should Stop Playing The Fool By Praising Cairo's Commitment To Democracy - Forbes

‘CAIRO—Egypt’s capital is crowded, busy, confused, and messy. Security isn’t obvious, until you get close to a sensitive site, such as the Interior Ministry. Blocks away the street is closed. There are metal fences, concrete barriers, and barbed wire. Uniformed and plain clothes security personnel. Armored personnel carriers. And multiple checks to get to the ministry’s door.

In Minya a judge handed down 683 death sentences against protestors in one case. The street leading to the courthouse was blocked by an APC topped by armed soldiers and backed by abundant security personnel. Tanks stood as sentinels at the Burja al-Arab prison, where ousted president Mohamed al-Morsi is being held.

The military has taken firm control, elevating its leader, Gen. Abdel Fata al-Sisi, to the presidency. He follows in the footsteps of dictators Gamal Abdel Al-Nasser, Anwar al-Sadat, and Hosni al-Mubarak. The uniformed services are a profitable caste for their members. Complained Kaled Badawy, one of Morsi’s attorneys, “we need a professional armed forces, not mercenaries which results in corruption.” The army permitted Mubarak’s ouster by street protests because he planned to turn military rule into a family dynasty, with his son as heir apparent.

670px-flickr_-_floris_van_cauwelaert_-_downtown_cairo_14.jpg

Downtown Cairo (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

Morsi had no chance to succeed. He exhibited authoritarian and sectarian tendencies and made abundant political mistakes, playing into his critics’ hands. Moreover, he never controlled the bureaucracy or police. Indeed, the latter even refused to protect the Brotherhood’s headquarters from mob violence. Crony capitalists grown rich under Mubarak apparently manipulated markets to create artificial shortages and exacerbate economic hardship. Most important, the army never accepted Morsi and fomented the very demonstrations used to justify its seizure of power.

Had Morsi and the Brotherhood been defeated in a future election, they would have been discredited peacefully. However, the coup turned the movement’s members into angry victims. In Cairo they took over Rab’a al-Adawiya and al-Nahda Squares, just as the anti-Mubarak and anti-Morsi crowds had done in Tahir Square. As many as 85,000 protestors, including more than a few women and children, turned out.

The military government responded with a campaign of premeditated murder.

In its new report, “All According to Plan: The Rab’a Massacre and Mass Killings of Protestors in Egypt,” Human Rights Watch detailed the junta’s crimes. From the beginning the military used deadly force with no concern for casualties. In the aftermath of the coup, reported HRW, “security forces repeatedly used excessive force to respond to demonstrations, indiscriminately and deliberately killing at least 281 protestors in different incidents.” In fact, the army began using live ammunition against protestors just two days after the coup. On July 8, for instance, 61 demonstrators were killed by soldiers outside of the Republican Guard headquarters. On July 27 security forces cut down 95 “largely peaceful protestors” on Cairo streets. Medical personnel said the shootings were close range at people’s heads, necks, and chests.

The most horrific episode came on August 17, when the regime used overwhelming force against protestors in Rab’a and al-Nahda Squares. HRW found that the Sisi regime expected high casualties: “Numerous government statements and accounts from government meetings indicate that high-ranking officials knew that the attacks would result in widespread killings of protestors.”

The regime deployed soldiers, APCs, bulldozers, police, and snipers to destroy a vast tent village in Rab’a. The authorities intended to kill. Explained HRW: “security forces used lethal force indiscriminately, with snipers and gunmen inside and alongside APCs firing their weaponry on large crowds of protestors. Dozens of witnesses also said they saw snipers fire from helicopters over Rab’a Square.” In roughly 12 hours HRW figured that at least 817 and likely more than 1000 people were slaughtered. Kenneth Roth, HRW’s executive director, said: “In Rab’a Square, Egyptian security forces carried out one of the world’s largest killings of demonstrators in a single day in recent history.”

In contrast, clearing Tiananmen Square in Beijing took twice as long and killed between 400 and 800 protestors. Moreover, reported HRW: “Security forces detained over 800 protestors over the course of the day, some of whom they beat, tortured and in some cases summarily executed,” according to witnesses. (Other groups, such as the International Coalition for Freedoms and Rights, put the death toll much higher.)

There was no respite for the wounded or those treating the wounded. Added HRW: “Security forces from the morning fired at makeshift medical facilities and positioned snipers to fire on those who sought to enter or exit Rab’a hospital.” After taking control of the square later in the day, regime personnel expelled the doctors and set fire to both Rab’a hospital and the field hospital.

The Sisi junta claimed that the protestors had responded with violence. HRW reported that hundreds of protestors tossed rocks and Molotov cocktails. But the group found only “a few instances” of gunfire. The government claimed eight dead, a small toll if the demonstrators had been as well armed as officials suggested, which itself seemed unlikely since the Interior Minister only claimed to have seized 15 guns. Concluded HRW: “the protestors’ violence in no way justified the deliberate and indiscriminate killings of protestors largely by police, in coordination with army forces.”

Western journalists were among the victims. Last month the Washington Post’s Daniela Deane wrote about the murder of her husband, a cameraman with Britain’s Sky News, by a government sniper. Security personnel could not have mistaken him, with his camera, for a Brotherhood protestor.

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Nearly 141 million join a global campaign to release Al Jazeera journalists

Nearly 141 million people have joined a global campaign demanding the release of Al- Jazeera journalists from Egyptian prisons on the campaign's FreeAJStaff site.

The number exceeded any similar campaign on social networking sites, with 141 million people circulating the hashtag #FreeAJStaff on Twitter.

The solidarity campaign started in Kenya's capital Nairobi when several journalists used the hashtag alongside personal pictures showing their mouths gagged with adhesive tapes to express their denouncement of the restrictions placed on journalists in Egypt.

The hashtag gained momentum as renowned journalists showed support for the campaign. Earlier in the year, in a show of solidarity, nearly 40 correspondents and editors representing 29 international media organizations sent a letter to the Egyptian authorities to demand the journalists' immediate release. The letter was signed by Christiane Amanpour, CNN chief international correspondent and a member of the board of the Committee to Protect Journalists, BBC chief international correspondent Lyse Doucet, and reporters and editors for NPR, The Washington Post, Le Monde, France 24 and The Economist, among other news outlets.

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Egypt over $283bn in debt

Egypt's total public debt jumped to $283 billion, including $45.3 billion dollars in foreign debt at the end of March, the Central Agency for Public Mobilisation and Statistics revealed.

The agency stated that the country's internal debt increased by about 18 per cent, reaching $238 billion by the end of the fiscal year on June 30.

This means that the total Egyptian debt exceeds the country's GDP which reached $272 billion during the last fiscal year. The rate of the Egyptian debt compared to the GDP was 89.5 per cent in 2012 during the rule of the deposed President Mohamed Morsi, now it is 104 per cent.

With this, Egypt ranks at the top of the Arab countries in terms of the size of its debt, coming second only after Lebanon in terms of the ratio of public debt to GDP, as Lebanon's ratio is 134 per cent.

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El-Baradei: I see Egypt sinking

Mohamed El-Baradei, the former vice president of Egypt, has said that the key to a solution in Egypt is the establishment of a government that accommodates everyone and is based upon respect for the rule of law, Egypt's Al-Mesryoon newspaper reported on Thursday.
El-Baradei then added, "We still have a long way to go to realise this government."

Speaking in New York, Al-Mesryoon reported that El-Baradei called on the Egyptian people to reconcile and agree upon common values, saying it is possible to have a constitution with a religious touch and another with a military touch, but what Egypt really needs is a consensual constitution.

El-Baradei also noted that after 50 years of oppression in Egypt: "There is no foundation to build upon, because without any established political parties, human rights organisations and the real participation of the people in their country's affairs, the ship will inevitably sink, and this is what I see now. We must either succeed together or fail divided."

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McCarthyism, Egyptian style

ayman_makrm_0.png

Ayman Makram

Sun, 23/11/2014 - 14:14


Albert Einstein, Charlie Chaplin, Arthur Miller and many other in a long list of big names in science, art and culture were prey to 1950 US Republican Senator Joseph McCarthy, whose name later became the historical origin of a term synonymous to the witch-hunting of intellectuals.

The former senator’s campaign had, for years, created a horrific atmosphere among intellectuals and artists who were mostly accused of being communist agents for Russia, in the form of aggressively questioning their patriotism and honor.

The US homeland was not the limit. McCarthy had sent a delegation to Europe to coordinate a blacklist of leftist and communist authors. He had also prompted the US State Department to deny entry to more than 400 European authors, journalists and academics.

In Egypt, McCarthyism has thrived since the stage was emptied for a lone star in the middle of a dark, empty sky. If the president speaks, his words are taken as song lyrics. If he wakes up, he finds everybody waiting on their bikes. If he gets angry, people swear and curse whoever ruined his mood.

Gradually, the alleged fifth column mushrooms and extends beyond borders; even infiltrating Egyptian prisons confining almost all of the 2011 revolutionaries. (Or those who are still alive, to be accurate!)

The new wave of Egyptian McCarthyism has hit the art sector, with the head of the state’s radio banning the broadcast of songs by Hamza Namira, seen by many as the singer of the 2011 uprising, which his excellency of course deems a conspiracy. Months earlier, we had heard that Ramy Essam, Tahrir Square’s singer who endured persecution under the former ruling military council, the Muslim Brotherhood and the present regime, is currently in semi-exile in Sweden. Cinema star Khaled Abouel Naga has dared to use his constitutional right and spoke out his assessment of the president’s performance during a seminar at the Cairo International Film Festival, only to face barrage of insults and accusations by the president’s private media battalion.

Egypt state radio chief, Abdel Rahman Rashad, had justified his ban of Namira’s songs by saying that the songs were opposed to the regime and the June 2013 “revolution,” and argued that his decision was meant to side with the state in its battle against terrorism, thus putting the Egyptian touch on McCarthyism.

Now, everyone is a supporter of terrorism until proven innocent.

Noam Chomsky once suggested that the terror industry was a mere outcome of the desire for dominance over society by distracting the public attention from pressing issues, such as poverty, pollution, crime and corruption. We have become accustomed to being used as tools to that end everyday in government and private TV channels, such as the dissemination of false information and rumors, as well as exaggerating individual incidences.

US McCarthyism failed in less than five years; and while disgrace still chases McCarthy and his cortege, Charlie Chaplin, Albert Einstein, Arthur Miller and other blacklisted personalities are still alive with their works and creations.

Such disgrace will also be the destiny of those who lambasted Abouel Naga and his likes, and survival will be for all who stood by his right to free speech and oppose the libeling, accusatory cult.

The Academy Awards festival that followed the 2003 US war in Iraq-- also waged under the pretext of combating terrorism-- had turned into a public trial of former US President George W. Bush by ِAmerican movie stars. Back then, Bush had no McCarthyist that would fight back for him against those whose criticisms later proved to be right.

The same applies to our case. If the president keeps listening only to the echo of his voice, all the world’s McCarthyists will never suffice to silence voices dreaming of a real homeland.

Ayman Makram is a movie director and critic.
 
Egypt's Al-Sisi Establishes Tyranny Mubarak Only Dreamed Of: Washington Should Stop Playing The Fool By Praising Cairo's Commitment To Democracy - Forbes

‘CAIRO—Egypt’s capital is crowded, busy, confused, and messy. Security isn’t obvious, until you get close to a sensitive site, such as the Interior Ministry. Blocks away the street is closed. There are metal fences, concrete barriers, and barbed wire. Uniformed and plain clothes security personnel. Armored personnel carriers. And multiple checks to get to the ministry’s door.

In Minya a judge handed down 683 death sentences against protestors in one case. The street leading to the courthouse was blocked by an APC topped by armed soldiers and backed by abundant security personnel. Tanks stood as sentinels at the Burja al-Arab prison, where ousted president Mohamed al-Morsi is being held.

The military has taken firm control, elevating its leader, Gen. Abdel Fata al-Sisi, to the presidency. He follows in the footsteps of dictators Gamal Abdel Al-Nasser, Anwar al-Sadat, and Hosni al-Mubarak. The uniformed services are a profitable caste for their members. Complained Kaled Badawy, one of Morsi’s attorneys, “we need a professional armed forces, not mercenaries which results in corruption.” The army permitted Mubarak’s ouster by street protests because he planned to turn military rule into a family dynasty, with his son as heir apparent.

670px-flickr_-_floris_van_cauwelaert_-_downtown_cairo_14.jpg

Downtown Cairo (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

Morsi had no chance to succeed. He exhibited authoritarian and sectarian tendencies and made abundant political mistakes, playing into his critics’ hands. Moreover, he never controlled the bureaucracy or police. Indeed, the latter even refused to protect the Brotherhood’s headquarters from mob violence. Crony capitalists grown rich under Mubarak apparently manipulated markets to create artificial shortages and exacerbate economic hardship. Most important, the army never accepted Morsi and fomented the very demonstrations used to justify its seizure of power.

Had Morsi and the Brotherhood been defeated in a future election, they would have been discredited peacefully. However, the coup turned the movement’s members into angry victims. In Cairo they took over Rab’a al-Adawiya and al-Nahda Squares, just as the anti-Mubarak and anti-Morsi crowds had done in Tahir Square. As many as 85,000 protestors, including more than a few women and children, turned out.

The military government responded with a campaign of premeditated murder.

In its new report, “All According to Plan: The Rab’a Massacre and Mass Killings of Protestors in Egypt,” Human Rights Watch detailed the junta’s crimes. From the beginning the military used deadly force with no concern for casualties. In the aftermath of the coup, reported HRW, “security forces repeatedly used excessive force to respond to demonstrations, indiscriminately and deliberately killing at least 281 protestors in different incidents.” In fact, the army began using live ammunition against protestors just two days after the coup. On July 8, for instance, 61 demonstrators were killed by soldiers outside of the Republican Guard headquarters. On July 27 security forces cut down 95 “largely peaceful protestors” on Cairo streets. Medical personnel said the shootings were close range at people’s heads, necks, and chests.

The most horrific episode came on August 17, when the regime used overwhelming force against protestors in Rab’a and al-Nahda Squares. HRW found that the Sisi regime expected high casualties: “Numerous government statements and accounts from government meetings indicate that high-ranking officials knew that the attacks would result in widespread killings of protestors.”

The regime deployed soldiers, APCs, bulldozers, police, and snipers to destroy a vast tent village in Rab’a. The authorities intended to kill. Explained HRW: “security forces used lethal force indiscriminately, with snipers and gunmen inside and alongside APCs firing their weaponry on large crowds of protestors. Dozens of witnesses also said they saw snipers fire from helicopters over Rab’a Square.” In roughly 12 hours HRW figured that at least 817 and likely more than 1000 people were slaughtered. Kenneth Roth, HRW’s executive director, said: “In Rab’a Square, Egyptian security forces carried out one of the world’s largest killings of demonstrators in a single day in recent history.”

In contrast, clearing Tiananmen Square in Beijing took twice as long and killed between 400 and 800 protestors. Moreover, reported HRW: “Security forces detained over 800 protestors over the course of the day, some of whom they beat, tortured and in some cases summarily executed,” according to witnesses. (Other groups, such as the International Coalition for Freedoms and Rights, put the death toll much higher.)

There was no respite for the wounded or those treating the wounded. Added HRW: “Security forces from the morning fired at makeshift medical facilities and positioned snipers to fire on those who sought to enter or exit Rab’a hospital.” After taking control of the square later in the day, regime personnel expelled the doctors and set fire to both Rab’a hospital and the field hospital.

The Sisi junta claimed that the protestors had responded with violence. HRW reported that hundreds of protestors tossed rocks and Molotov cocktails. But the group found only “a few instances” of gunfire. The government claimed eight dead, a small toll if the demonstrators had been as well armed as officials suggested, which itself seemed unlikely since the Interior Minister only claimed to have seized 15 guns. Concluded HRW: “the protestors’ violence in no way justified the deliberate and indiscriminate killings of protestors largely by police, in coordination with army forces.”

Western journalists were among the victims. Last month the Washington Post’s Daniela Deane wrote about the murder of her husband, a cameraman with Britain’s Sky News, by a government sniper. Security personnel could not have mistaken him, with his camera, for a Brotherhood protestor.

.........................
header_sprite.png

McCarthyism, Egyptian style

ayman_makrm_0.png

Ayman Makram

Sun, 23/11/2014 - 14:14


Albert Einstein, Charlie Chaplin, Arthur Miller and many other in a long list of big names in science, art and culture were prey to 1950 US Republican Senator Joseph McCarthy, whose name later became the historical origin of a term synonymous to the witch-hunting of intellectuals.

The former senator’s campaign had, for years, created a horrific atmosphere among intellectuals and artists who were mostly accused of being communist agents for Russia, in the form of aggressively questioning their patriotism and honor.

The US homeland was not the limit. McCarthy had sent a delegation to Europe to coordinate a blacklist of leftist and communist authors. He had also prompted the US State Department to deny entry to more than 400 European authors, journalists and academics.

In Egypt, McCarthyism has thrived since the stage was emptied for a lone star in the middle of a dark, empty sky. If the president speaks, his words are taken as song lyrics. If he wakes up, he finds everybody waiting on their bikes. If he gets angry, people swear and curse whoever ruined his mood.

Gradually, the alleged fifth column mushrooms and extends beyond borders; even infiltrating Egyptian prisons confining almost all of the 2011 revolutionaries. (Or those who are still alive, to be accurate!)

The new wave of Egyptian McCarthyism has hit the art sector, with the head of the state’s radio banning the broadcast of songs by Hamza Namira, seen by many as the singer of the 2011 uprising, which his excellency of course deems a conspiracy. Months earlier, we had heard that Ramy Essam, Tahrir Square’s singer who endured persecution under the former ruling military council, the Muslim Brotherhood and the present regime, is currently in semi-exile in Sweden. Cinema star Khaled Abouel Naga has dared to use his constitutional right and spoke out his assessment of the president’s performance during a seminar at the Cairo International Film Festival, only to face barrage of insults and accusations by the president’s private media battalion.

Egypt state radio chief, Abdel Rahman Rashad, had justified his ban of Namira’s songs by saying that the songs were opposed to the regime and the June 2013 “revolution,” and argued that his decision was meant to side with the state in its battle against terrorism, thus putting the Egyptian touch on McCarthyism.

Now, everyone is a supporter of terrorism until proven innocent.

Noam Chomsky once suggested that the terror industry was a mere outcome of the desire for dominance over society by distracting the public attention from pressing issues, such as poverty, pollution, crime and corruption. We have become accustomed to being used as tools to that end everyday in government and private TV channels, such as the dissemination of false information and rumors, as well as exaggerating individual incidences.

US McCarthyism failed in less than five years; and while disgrace still chases McCarthy and his cortege, Charlie Chaplin, Albert Einstein, Arthur Miller and other blacklisted personalities are still alive with their works and creations.

Such disgrace will also be the destiny of those who lambasted Abouel Naga and his likes, and survival will be for all who stood by his right to free speech and oppose the libeling, accusatory cult.

The Academy Awards festival that followed the 2003 US war in Iraq-- also waged under the pretext of combating terrorism-- had turned into a public trial of former US President George W. Bush by ِAmerican movie stars. Back then, Bush had no McCarthyist that would fight back for him against those whose criticisms later proved to be right.

The same applies to our case. If the president keeps listening only to the echo of his voice, all the world’s McCarthyists will never suffice to silence voices dreaming of a real homeland.

Ayman Makram is a movie director and critic.
Outsiders should hope for these countries to achieve stability above all else. From the events of the last few years it appears "democracy" is ill suited to that region.
 
Outsiders should hope for these countries to achieve stability above all else. From the events of the last few years it appears "democracy" is ill suited to that region.

There has never been any democracy in the ME. As in the democracy that we witness in Western Europe mind you.

For instance if Israel was located in Europe and pursued the same policies that they are doing currently they would not be allowed to join the EU. Simply because they would not be qualified for that.

It took the entire world (in fact most of the world do not follow "real democracy") centuries to archive that.

Hell, just less than 25 years ago half of Europe consisted of dictatorships and 40 years ago (various totalitarian regimes from Spain, Portugal, Greece etc.) most of Europe.

The ME has not been allowed to achieve that or have the same movements. After the "Arab Spring" nothing will be the same anymore. A country like Tunisia came out stronger. Other countries less so. The same happened in Europe once. Some revolutions were successful others a failure. Ultimately most countries in Europe are now democracies outside of Belarus, Russia (if you could call them European) etc.
 
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There has never been any democracy in the ME. As in the democracy that we witness in Western Europe mind you.

For instance if Israel was located in Europe and pursued the same policies that they are doing currently they would not be allowed to join the EU. Simply because they would not be qualified for that.

It took the entire world (in fact most of the world do not follow "real democracy") centuries to archive that.

Hell, just less than 25 years ago half of Europe were dictatorships and 40 years ago (various totalitarian regimes from Spain, Portugal, Greece etc.) most of Europe.

The ME has not been allowed to achieve that or have the same movements. After the "Arab Spring" nothing will be the same anymore. A country like Tunisia came out stronger. Some others less so. The same happened in Europe. Some revolutions were successful others a failure. Ultimately most countries in Europe are now democracies outside of Belarus, Russia (if you could calm them European) etc.
I'm not saying it's impossible (though it might be). It just doesn't have to be a priority. Democratic governments are generally less brutal and corrupt than non democratic ones but this doesn't have to be the case. Singapore is an example of a very gentle and benevolent non democratic government.
 
Hell, just less than 25 years ago half of Europe consisted of dictatorships and 40 years ago (various totalitarian regimes from Spain, Portugal, Greece etc.) most of Europe.

You'll have to notice that most of the countries mentioned by you had totalitarian regimes imposed on them by the USSR but the democratic process was well establised.For example Romania had democracy since 1859 up until the communism coup in 1947.
 
I'm not saying it's impossible (though it might be). It just doesn't have to be a priority. Democratic governments are generally less brutal and corrupt than non democratic ones but this doesn't have to be the case. Singapore is an example of a very gentle and benevolent non democratic government.

Well obviously it is not impossible. Not more impossible than the thought of democracy in 90% of Europe less than 100 years ago.

The world is moving towards a more similar world for each year. A world were people regardless of their upbringing, social, economic, religious, ethnic etc status aspire for the same rights. Such as more personal freedom, a bigger say in the decision makings, education, security etc.

I don't believe that democracy is the only viable system (never did) nor do I even believe that the democracy seen in the UK is the same as the one seen in Brazil for instance. I do believe that there are certain universal rights that are attached to a democratic system.

Singapore is similar to the GCC. A rich welfare state and one-party state if I am not mistaken. Not all GCC countries are on-party state but ultimately the monarchies have the last say.

Personally I want to see them (monarchies) being exchanged for constitutional monarchies and real parliaments and elected leaders. I think that this will happen one day as well. Countries like Kuwait and UAE have shown us the light in that field.

You'll have to notice that most of the countries mentioned by you had totalitarian regimes imposed on them by the USSR but the democratic process was well establised.For example Romania had democracy since 1859 up until the communism coup in 1947.

Sure but was that comparable to Western democracy? Did the German monarchs not have the last word? Poland for instance (the biggest Central/Eastern European state) under the USSR sphere was never a real democracy prior to 1989. Between WW1 and WW2 for instance the country was ruled by military leaders. This was the case with most countries that later came under the sphere of USSR.

Actually the only exceptions in Europe prior to WW2 were France, the UK, Scandinavia and Benelux. I might have forgot some though but I doubt it.
 
Well obviously it is not impossible. Not more impossible than the thought of democracy in 90% of Europe less than 100 years ago.

The world is moving towards a more similar world for each year. A world were people regardless of their upbringing, social, economic, religious, ethnic etc status aspire for the same rights. Such as more personal freedom, a bigger say in the decision makings, education, security etc.

I don't believe that democracy is the only viable system (never did) nor do I even believe that the democracy seen in the UK is the same as the one seen in Brazil for instance. I do believe that there are certain universal rights that are attached to a democratic system.

Singapore is similar to the GCC. A rich welfare state and one-party state if I am not mistaken. Not all GCC countries are on-party state but ultimately the monarchies have the last say.

Personally I want to see them (monarchies) being exchanged for constitutional monarchies and real parliaments and elected leaders. I think that this will happen one day as well. Countries like Kuwait and UAE have shown us the light in that field.



Sure but was that comparable to Western democracy? Did the German monarchs not have the last word? Poland for instance (the biggest Central/Eastern European state) under the USSR sphere was never a real democracy prior to 1989. Between WW1 and WW2 for instance the country was ruled by military leaders. This was the case with most countries.

Actually the only exception in Europe was the UK, Scandinavia and Benelux. I might have forgot some though but I doubt it.
Even in Britain working class men couldn't vote until 1912 and no women could until 1928. However, England and later Britain were relatively free countries long before that. Which is the point I was making before: democracy and freedom are not identical. You can have a free press, free speech, an independent judiciary and seperation of powers without having an elected government.
 
Sure but was that comparable to Western democracy? Did the German monarchs not have the last word? Poland for instance (the biggest Central/Eastern European state) under the USSR sphere was never a real democracy prior to 1989. Between WW1 and WW2 for instance the country was ruled by military leaders. This was the case with most countries that later came under the sphere of USSR.

Actually the only exception in Europe was France, the UK, Scandinavia and Benelux. I might have forgot some though but I doubt it.

Well,ours was.The King couldn't decide on major events (like entering a war) without the Crown Council(ministers,members of Parliament) voting on it-hence Romania didn't join the Central Powers in WW1 like Carol the First (who was German) wanted.But you are right on certain periods like from 1938-1941 when Carol the Second established autoritarian rule.But these were exceptions in a 90 year old time frame until the communist f*uck up.
 
Even in Britain working class men couldn't vote until 1912 and no women could until 1928. However, England and later Britain were relatively free countries long before that. Which is the point I was making before: democracy and freedom are not identical. You can have a free press, free speech, an independent judiciary and seperation of powers without having an elected government.

Yes and countless of other laws that most people would shake their heads over today.

I fully agree. What you consider freedom is not necessarily something an Arab, Chinese etc. would consider as a freedom.

And as I already wrote then each country has a slightly different approach to democracy (the fundamentals being in place though) due to their unique histories, social fabric, customs etc.

Well,ours was.The King couldn't decide on major events (like entering a war) without the Crown Council(ministers,members of Parliament) voting on it-hence Romania didn't join the Central Powers in WW1 like Carol the First (who was German) wanted.But you are right on certain periods like from 1938-1941 when Carol the Second established autoritarian rule.But these were exceptions in a 90 year old time frame until the communist f*uck up.

Aha. Thanks. So in other words there was no absolute monarchy? Yet the seeds of democracy might have been laid back then but in my eyes (compared to today's situation) Romania first became a democratic country in 1989. That's merely 25 years ago. Also we have to remember that 90-95% of all people in Europe back then (150 years ago) were poor people without any influence. Look at the voting rights in most European countries in that period. Only a small portion of the population had any say or influence.

Give it a generation or two (at most) and the people in the ME will be ready. Hell I would even go as far and say that my generation (I am in my earliest 20's) in the GCC is ready for that.
 
Aha. Thanks. So in other words there was no absolute monarchy? Yet the seed of democracy might have been laid back then but in my eyes (compared to today's situation) Romania first became a democratic country in 1989. That's merely 25 years ago. Also we have to remember that 90-95% of all people in Europe back then (150 years ago) were poor people without any influence. Look at the voting rights in most European countries in that period. Only a small portion of the population had any say or influence.

You're right but bare in mind that it was difficult to organise elections for illiterate peasants in 1880's for example.We had a system in which people who paid a certain amount of taxes could vote.If i'm not mistaken general vote was allowed right after WW1.And yes,there was no absolute monarch,even from the official establishment of Romania in 1859,the "Prince"(kingship was established in 1881) couldn't make decizions without his ministers and Parliament.

So you see,we have 155 years of modern Romania,42 of them=totalitarian communimn,3 yeasr-totalitarian regime of king Carol the Second,3 years-totalitarian regime of General Antonescu,107 years=Democracy.Democracy wins by a long shot,just that communism was more recent,so people get stuck in it.
 

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