Dubai Airshow 2011

[air marshal]

 

[air marshal]

 

[abaseen99]

 

[abaseen99]

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[Najam Khan]

Some thoughts i decided to pen down

Analysis of Thunder’s performance at Dubai Air show 2011
Posted on November 18, 2011 by Najam Khan

On the event of Dubai air show 2011, PAC and CAC has send three JF-17 Thunder aircraft to attend the show. Four aircraft, all belonging from No.16 Sqn of PAF took off from their home base Minhas AB, Kamra on 10th Nov 2011. The fourth aircraft being a reserve aircraft was a part of the formation which returned from Masroor AB, Karachi.
Out of the remaining three, two were members of air display team, where as the third one was seen sitting at the static display for public display. Most of the state-of-the-art weapons in JF-17’s arsenal were also displayed at the static display, which include PL-5E Short Range Air-to-Air Missile SRAAM, SD-10A Beyond Visual Range(BVR) Air-to-Air Missile, 1000lbs LS-6 Extended-range guided bomb, 1000lbs LT-2 Laser Guided Bomb (LGB), C-802AK Air Launched Anti-shipping Missile, WMD-7 Day/Night detection and targeting pod.
On Nov 13, a JF-17 put on a decent air display in front on large crowd. In some eight and a half minutes air show, the pilot demonstrated the strength and potential of the aircraft. Starting on with a slight 10 alpha turn to the left, followed an aileron roll the pilot completed a Cuban-8 maneuver. In the next part of the show, the pilot took the aircraft to its limits, displaying its agility under different altitude of flight. The performance of the aircraft was very impressive, high-G turns, inverted flying, vertical climb and deep dives were all that were expected from Pakistani team which have showed their talent in the past.

From PAF’s performance at Zhuahi, Izmir and now Dubai it is certain that a lot of high-maneuvering and deep stall testing has been done on JF-17s. During the course of such testing they multiple weapon configurations with different center of gravity (CG) are tried. The worst case is tested when centerline tanks or centerline pods are intact. Getting in a deep stall with a 50-60 deg Angel-of-Attack (AOA) and then recovering within minimum cycles is all that is needed. JF-17’s computer compares values of pitch, Angle-of-Attack, speed and attitude with default values of normal stall. Based on its instincts it decides to recover automatically.
The big reason why F-16 and Mirage pilots are selected for JF-17 program is that they have too much expertise in maneuvering training (both normal and high AOA maneuvering), which is a per-requisite for test and evaluation. Getting knowledge about aircraft’s aerodynamics, flight characteristics, recovery techniques and handling procedures is all that is required before going in the air.
From the Nov 13th, JF-17’s performance it was also worth noting that during the landing approach the pilot positioned itself in the landing bracket from a high AOA to a 13 deg landing in a very small time. Needless to say, the landing was also ‘smooth as silk’…an example for young pilots too!
What is even more interesting is that, during the landing the pilot exhibits professionalism in managing the back pressure and speed. He is also seen managing horizontal stabilizers extensively to complete his perfect landing. Albeit JF-17 requires drogue chute to land under 850m runway, but this air display is enough evidence to disprove it.
During Exercise High Mark 2010, PAF Mirage-VEL and F-7PG aircraft participated in road landings at Motorway. JF-17’s landing (823m) and takeoff distance (610m) allows it to be deployed to any small air strip of road at the time of need, thus fulfilling the needs of a true Multirole fighter.

Youtube JF-17 performance at Dubai Airshow - Nov 13, 2011

Blog post's Link

 

[Dazzler]

Nabil,
Again , please post more details,
I am still waiting for some thing that can help me qualify these news.
..... post some thing in support of this news

I cant post more details brother, reason is obvious as we are on a public forum afterall, all i can say that a close friend of mine had a detailed discussion with someone involved in the project, at the stand there. By the way, my friend at the show, is a civilian.

 

[abaseen99]

PAF JF-17 Thunder on Static Display at Dubai Airshow 2011 - YouTube

 

[SBD-3]

Hasnain my friend, you have some interesting&peculiar information sources.

The possibility that Israeli cadets would come to Pakistan is really very strange. Our Arab friends would react very strongly, and Israel's cadets(are you talking about flight cadets or army or flight cadets what... ) enjoy alot more flight-hours of practice than ours. And we don't even recognize their country or have any diplomatic ties with them. So the prospect of them sending their cadets over is indeed a little unusual.

Back on-topic to the JFT, you also reported that there was some dispute between the PAF and PAC, due to the PAF wanting to induct Block-II immediately and PAC wanting to manufacture it... This was also really interesting and unusual, because we haven't heard this from anywhere else.


Like I said, you have interesting sources . I hope you don't mind my saying this.

Sir I have clarified earlier that I dont have any special "sources" like anybody else. I gather my information from reading through different information sources (ATW,JDW, Books on the topic etc). The guy was a senior officer in navy and was traveling with me. We get to know each other as he started discussing his activities in a usual manner he expected least from others, When I started discussing the things I know, he got fairly impressed and we started a rather open discussion, when I asked about trainings, then he said this to me. This was not by mistake as he went on for a while on this discussion, but i may be misinformed, he may be boosting, all i can do is repeat what i heard from his mouth.
The second reason was provided by an insider on pakdef (Pshamim,Munir i cant recall) a while ago when somebody questioned why not PAF would go for CAC produced thunders.
I gather most of my information through reading....not through human "sources".

 

[Donatello]

That climb at 1:40+ was awesome!

 

[abaseen99]

JF-17 Thunder: Dubai Air Show / Geo News (2011) - YouTube

 

[Luftwaffe]

Qatar for JFTs surprising & strange (Block II?)..

The Qatar Emiri Air Force as of January 2011 were evaluating Typhoon together with the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the Boeing F-15 and the Dassault Rafale to replace its current inventory of Dassault Mirage 2000-5s. The total order for 24–36 aircraft will be decided on by the end of 2012.

 

[MastanKhan]

Good to hear. Such a great step by Pakistan in my opinion. I see a lot of Pakistani members very critical to Pakistani government, but seriously to be able to achieve great things military wise that no other muslim country, even countries with higher GDP's and better economies didn't even come close to achieving. We are proud of you guys.

Hi,

How are you doing? Welcome to the board----pakistan and pakistanis have a different perception of weapons and weapons systems than most other middle eastern muslim nations or other muslim nation as well. The reasoning behind is the sanctions that have been imposed upon us and the geographic location to an opponent 5 plus times than our size---.

Our ability to assimilate ourselves with these technologies falls back on one thing and only on one thing and that is the language ENGLISH------. Whereas the arab and other muslim nations have struggled as to what to teach and what language their students need in their college, universities, bachelor, masters and Phd programs----pakistan stuck with english first and foremost.

It gave us a superior advantage to any other non english speaking nation when it came to weapons procurement and training either in britain or in the usa---. As we didnot have the language gap amongst us and our benefactors in britain and the u s, we started learning about these systems at a much higher pace during training than any other foreign non english speaking national----. That edge that we got from the 50's, 60, 70's, 80's just by knowing english, took us farther ahead than our other colleagues.

As I mentioned, other than english---the second reason was our neighbour india and the sanctions imposed upon us. We were fortunate that we had so much exposure to the western weapons systems that we could partner up with the chinese and utilize our experience of western technology and mate it to the chinese----chinese were receptive and extremely anxious of our input. Even though they were progressing, but after the israelis pulled away from the levi project, chinese needed another mature partner---and pakistanis needed a benefactor.

As for the arab nations, they stuck with the americans, the british, the russians and the french and did not feel the need to invest in such a project---as their needs were being met and they did not have an enemy the size of india to face with---. Turks on the other hand progressed in departments that they wanted to and as being the larget muslim nato ally---they did not have any issues with what they wanted---.

Bottomline---our projects are successful due to our desperation of not getting the much needed weapons system in time. If the u s had not sanctioned us in the 90's----there would have been no JF17---so thank you uncle---this one is for the GIPPER.

 

[agentny17]

Hi,

How are you doing? Welcome to the board----pakistan and pakistanis have a different perception of weapons and weapons systems than most other middle eastern muslim nations or other muslim nation as well. The reasoning behind is the sanctions that have been imposed upon us and the geographic location to an opponent 5 plus times than our size---.

Our ability to assimilate ourselves with these technologies falls back on one thing and only on one thing and that is the language ENGLISH------. Whereas the arab and other muslim nations have struggled as to what to teach and what language their students need in their college, universities, bachelor, masters and Phd programs----pakistan stuck with english first and foremost.

It gave us a superior advantage to any other non english speaking nation when it came to weapons procurement and training either in britain or in the usa---. As we didnot have the language gap amongst us and our benefactors in britain and the u s, we started learning about these systems at a much higher pace during training than any other foreign non english speaking national----. That edge that we got from the 50's, 60, 70's, 80's just by knowing english, took us farther ahead than our other colleagues.

As I mentioned, other than english---the second reason was our neighbour india and the sanctions imposed upon us. We were fortunate that we had so much exposure to the western weapons systems that we could partner up with the chinese and utilize our experience of western technology and mate it to the chinese----chinese were receptive and extremely anxious of our input. Even though they were progressing, but after the israelis pulled away from the levi project, chinese needed another mature partner---and pakistanis needed a benefactor.

As for the arab nations, they stuck with the americans, the british, the russians and the french and did not feel the need to invest in such a project---as their needs were being met and they did not have an enemy the size of india to face with---. Turks on the other hand progressed in departments that they wanted to and as being the larget muslim nato ally---they did not have any issues with what they wanted---.

Bottomline---our projects are successful due to our desperation of not getting the much needed weapons system in time. If the u s had not sanctioned us in the 90's----there would have been no JF17---so thank you uncle---this one is for the GIPPER.

Very informative post.. Thanks bro.

 

[Qasibr]

@MastanKhan That is a very subjective and debatable opinion. Turkey for one, has never been colonized and proudly holds on to it's own language, most Turks don't even speak English, and they're further ahead of us in many areas. A large number of other countries like Germany, France, Sweden, China and Russia, have very advanced defence/aeronautics industries, and do not speak English. Brazil has a fairly advanced AAM missile program and their colonizer-imposed language is Spanish.

On the other hand, a large number of English-speaking countries are not very advanced. I personally think this has alot to do with initiative and the ambitions of the country. For example, Australia, which is alot bigger than us and has alot more resources, does not seem as involved or interested, arguably Pakistan is further ahead of them in a number of areas. Their defence industry actually seems to be shrinking due to buying off-the-shelf aircraft like the F/A-18 and F-35(I know that they have some small projects and areas they focus on, like naval vessels, but even that seems to have decreased after they de-commissioned their last aircraft carrier).

I think it's people like Air Marshall Nur Khan(and to a degree, his successor Air Marshall Asghar Khan) who instilled this desire for perfection, trying to do our very best no matter how desperate the odds or what sanctions we must work under. Nur Khan, for example, was unsure whether our transport aircraft rigged to release bombs would be feasible in the Kashmir valley, flying amidst some of the world's tallest mountains, so before ordering others to risk lives, he himself flew on the first sortie of these aircraft in the 1965 Pak-India war, ordering others to do this only when he himself made sure it could be done. The head of the Israeli Airforce, Ezra Weizman wrote in his auto-biography "On Eagle's Wings", that Nur Khan was a formidable fellow, and that he was glad Khan wasn't an Egyptian. Weizman's pilots did face Nur Khan's PAF, and on those occasions PAF pilots completely out-classed their adversary - Israel treated this as a very serious threat and tried to take measures to neutralize this. These people lead by example and tirelessly did their very best in any situation, and I think this left a deep mark on the PAF psyche that's visible to this very day. Very early on, we switched from a somewhat more bureaucratic British-oriented training and tactical "style" Pakistan and India inherited from RAF, to one modelled closer to the USAF. I remember reading news clippings of interviews of PAF officials from the 60's, and they were really proud of their remarkably high gunnery-accuracy statistics, stating that being this accurate and perfectionistic enabled us to deliver the same lethal punch that it took other airforces larger numbers of aircraft to achieve.

There are a number of other institutions in Pakistan that have this type of perfectionism(the Motorway police is a well-known example, known for arresting people who offer bribes), and we have alot of other institutions that are crumbling, despite our English colonization heritage.

 

[Riz]

Deal final hogae bhai................

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