What's new

Cold start or cold feet?

foxhound

FULL MEMBER
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
473
Reaction score
0
Salaam......:coffee:


Cold start or cold feet?

The Frontier Post
Cold start or cold feet? | Missile ThreatMissile Threat
Posted on November 12, 2012 by editor
Haft-9-launch.jpg


Pakistan’s development of Hatf-IX (Nasr) short-range ballistic missile is giving Indian myth-makers cold feet. New Delhi began the nuclear weapons game in South Asia, continues developing its nuclear and conventional forces but demurs from facing the consequences.

India destabilized the region by not settling the territorial disputes and disregarded calls by the UN to address the Jammu and Kashmir issue. It developed the provocative doctrine of fighting war with limited territorial aims – called the Cold Start Doctrine (CSD) – and now appears to be appealing to the international community that it must “come together to stop Pakistan’s quest to acquire [short-range] destabilizing weapons.”

It is widely believed that Pakistan has developed Nasr to deter India from operationalizing the CSD. The provocative doctrine would ostensibly telescope India’s military mobilization time to launch shallow and swift attacks in Pakistan’s territory and punish it before the nuclear weapons come into play.

With its short-range and nuclear capability, Nasr signals that every inch of Pakistan’s territory is sacrosanct and its people would not stand even a minor Indian ingress. Nasr has shifted onus of maintaining stability in India’s court. Interestingly, India has started distancing itself from the CSD saying it is just a concept and is rather Pakistan’s favorite bogeyman. New Delhi has now re-styled it to a more benign title Proactive Defense Strategy.

Seven major misperceptions have appeared in the recent commentary on Nasr that call for dispassionate analysis. First, holds that Nasr is a Pakistan Army project whereas the National Engineering and Scientific Commission developed it. Second, related-misperception is that the command and control of the so-called Tactical Nuclear Weapons (TNWs) would have to decentralize at some stage of war to enable their timely employment. Actually, the National Command Authority (NCA) exercises assertive control over the development, deployment and use of all nuclear weapons.

The video footages of the recent tests of the short-range missiles show NCA’s capability to directly control these weapons. All nuclear-armed states have to make the tightrope walk to balance that nuclear weapons are always available but there is no misuse or accidental launch. The challenge lies in balancing this infamous “always-never dilemma.”

Third, Indian Prahaar missile is not nuclear-capable and India has opted not to go down the so-called TNWs route. Three arguments belie the claim that Prahaar has a conventional delivery capability only. One, although the Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) wisely avoided using the N-word for Prahaar, there is no mechanism to verify if a nuclear warhead would not be used.

The DRDO statement only said “carries different types of warheads…” and has been misinterpreted. Two, it is quite unlikely that DRDO would develop a 150-kilometer range Prahaar that could fire a salvo of six missiles in different directions.
This advanced capability would preferably be developed for a nuclear delivery system. Three, Prahaar was tested in July 2011 after two years of work. India was developing the so-called TNWs independent of Pakistan’s decision to develop Nasr. Fourth, the moniker TNW—the term was literally imposed on South Asia, neither Pakistan nor India used it for Nasr and Prahaar. The U.S. and erstwhile Soviet Union could afford to use ‘tactical’ and ‘battlefield’ for their SRBMs because these would land on ‘their European battleground.’ Anything falling on their mainland would be strategic.

Likewise, it would be incorrect to use TNW for Prahaar or Nasr as their use will have strategic results. Pak-India border is populated and would become the battlefields at the outset. Hence, the Western counter-force and counter-value targeting terms do not hold in the Subcontinent’s scenario because even low yields like 0.05 to 0.5 kilotons would affect the forces, civilian population and industries close to borders. Fifth, the NATO has eschewed the so-called TNWs and Subcontinent, especially Pakistan is treading the perilous nuclear war-fighting route. The fact is that the U.S. and Russia possess sizeable arsenal of the so-called TNWs. Russia uses its SRBM arsenal as a lever against the U.S. to compromise its European ballistic missile defense shield.

Sixth, the so-called TNWs lower the nuclear-use threshold. If this argument were accepted, then it would be easy to conclude that a rational state would eschew any doctrine that provokes its adversary to deploy and use the SRBMs. If both adversaries possess the short-range delivery means, they would be deterred from escalating a crisis to even contemplate a limited war. Stability in Europe despite the TNWs is an example. If the deterrence fails then bets on all genres of nuclear weapons would be off. Seventh, SRBMs are difficult and expensive to manufacture.

Many wonder about Pakistan’s capability to miniaturize warheads that could fit Nasr’s thin 300 mm diameter. Recalling the yield data about Pakistani tests on May 28 and 30, 1998 it would be easy to infer that a couple of designs were low-yield weapons. Likewise, in thirteen years Pakistan must have made at least ‘some’ progress in smaller warhead designs that could fit Nasr.

Miniaturization is step one to a multiple independently targeted re-entry vehicles (MIRVs), submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) capability and artillery delivered weapons. The MIRVs help defeat anti-ballistic missiles, while SLBMs and cruise missiles give assured second strike capability of absorbing a nuclear attack and still retaliate with submarine-based weapons. This technological spinoff from developing Nasr would save Pakistan from nuclear blackmailing. Naturally, Pakistan’s adversary would portray such technological leap as a gaffe.

India initiated the nuclear game in the South Asia, shunned Pakistan’s repeated proposals of no war pact, nuclear weapons free zone and strategic restraint regime in the South Asia, but it seems to be developing cold feet from Pakistan’s responses.

Although Pakistani initiatives have been overtaken by time, there is always hope. If India quits intransigence to genuine peace efforts, offers credible evidence of revoking dangerous doctrines, resolves the thorny issues, ends unabated militarization, Pakistan should be willing to respond.
Until then, who knows if more may come from Pakistan in terms of variety of delivery means at the pace the Pakistani strategic planners are moving! The choice of making peace rests with India; Pakistan was only a reluctant entrant in the nuclear club. In the meanwhile, it seems to have been a short distance from Cold Start to Cold Feet.
 
Salaam......:coffee:


Cold start or cold feet?

The Frontier Post
Cold start or cold feet? | Missile ThreatMissile Threat
Posted on November 12, 2012 by editor
Haft-9-launch.jpg


Pakistan’s development of Hatf-IX (Nasr) short-range ballistic missile is giving Indian myth-makers cold feet. New Delhi began the nuclear weapons game in South Asia, continues developing its nuclear and conventional forces but demurs from facing the consequences.

India destabilized the region by not settling the territorial disputes and disregarded calls by the UN to address the Jammu and Kashmir issue. It developed the provocative doctrine of fighting war with limited territorial aims – called the Cold Start Doctrine (CSD) – and now appears to be appealing to the international community that it must “come together to stop Pakistan’s quest to acquire [short-range] destabilizing weapons.”

It is widely believed that Pakistan has developed Nasr to deter India from operationalizing the CSD. The provocative doctrine would ostensibly telescope India’s military mobilization time to launch shallow and swift attacks in Pakistan’s territory and punish it before the nuclear weapons come into play.

With its short-range and nuclear capability, Nasr signals that every inch of Pakistan’s territory is sacrosanct and its people would not stand even a minor Indian ingress. Nasr has shifted onus of maintaining stability in India’s court. Interestingly, India has started distancing itself from the CSD saying it is just a concept and is rather Pakistan’s favorite bogeyman. New Delhi has now re-styled it to a more benign title Proactive Defense Strategy.

Seven major misperceptions have appeared in the recent commentary on Nasr that call for dispassionate analysis. First, holds that Nasr is a Pakistan Army project whereas the National Engineering and Scientific Commission developed it. Second, related-misperception is that the command and control of the so-called Tactical Nuclear Weapons (TNWs) would have to decentralize at some stage of war to enable their timely employment. Actually, the National Command Authority (NCA) exercises assertive control over the development, deployment and use of all nuclear weapons.

The video footages of the recent tests of the short-range missiles show NCA’s capability to directly control these weapons. All nuclear-armed states have to make the tightrope walk to balance that nuclear weapons are always available but there is no misuse or accidental launch. The challenge lies in balancing this infamous “always-never dilemma.”

Third, Indian Prahaar missile is not nuclear-capable and India has opted not to go down the so-called TNWs route. Three arguments belie the claim that Prahaar has a conventional delivery capability only. One, although the Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) wisely avoided using the N-word for Prahaar, there is no mechanism to verify if a nuclear warhead would not be used.

The DRDO statement only said “carries different types of warheads…” and has been misinterpreted. Two, it is quite unlikely that DRDO would develop a 150-kilometer range Prahaar that could fire a salvo of six missiles in different directions.
This advanced capability would preferably be developed for a nuclear delivery system. Three, Prahaar was tested in July 2011 after two years of work. India was developing the so-called TNWs independent of Pakistan’s decision to develop Nasr. Fourth, the moniker TNW—the term was literally imposed on South Asia, neither Pakistan nor India used it for Nasr and Prahaar. The U.S. and erstwhile Soviet Union could afford to use ‘tactical’ and ‘battlefield’ for their SRBMs because these would land on ‘their European battleground.’ Anything falling on their mainland would be strategic.

Likewise, it would be incorrect to use TNW for Prahaar or Nasr as their use will have strategic results. Pak-India border is populated and would become the battlefields at the outset. Hence, the Western counter-force and counter-value targeting terms do not hold in the Subcontinent’s scenario because even low yields like 0.05 to 0.5 kilotons would affect the forces, civilian population and industries close to borders. Fifth, the NATO has eschewed the so-called TNWs and Subcontinent, especially Pakistan is treading the perilous nuclear war-fighting route. The fact is that the U.S. and Russia possess sizeable arsenal of the so-called TNWs. Russia uses its SRBM arsenal as a lever against the U.S. to compromise its European ballistic missile defense shield.

Sixth, the so-called TNWs lower the nuclear-use threshold. If this argument were accepted, then it would be easy to conclude that a rational state would eschew any doctrine that provokes its adversary to deploy and use the SRBMs. If both adversaries possess the short-range delivery means, they would be deterred from escalating a crisis to even contemplate a limited war. Stability in Europe despite the TNWs is an example. If the deterrence fails then bets on all genres of nuclear weapons would be off. Seventh, SRBMs are difficult and expensive to manufacture.

Many wonder about Pakistan’s capability to miniaturize warheads that could fit Nasr’s thin 300 mm diameter. Recalling the yield data about Pakistani tests on May 28 and 30, 1998 it would be easy to infer that a couple of designs were low-yield weapons. Likewise, in thirteen years Pakistan must have made at least ‘some’ progress in smaller warhead designs that could fit Nasr.

Miniaturization is step one to a multiple independently targeted re-entry vehicles (MIRVs), submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) capability and artillery delivered weapons. The MIRVs help defeat anti-ballistic missiles, while SLBMs and cruise missiles give assured second strike capability of absorbing a nuclear attack and still retaliate with submarine-based weapons. This technological spinoff from developing Nasr would save Pakistan from nuclear blackmailing. Naturally, Pakistan’s adversary would portray such technological leap as a gaffe.

India initiated the nuclear game in the South Asia, shunned Pakistan’s repeated proposals of no war pact, nuclear weapons free zone and strategic restraint regime in the South Asia, but it seems to be developing cold feet from Pakistan’s responses.

Although Pakistani initiatives have been overtaken by time, there is always hope. If India quits intransigence to genuine peace efforts, offers credible evidence of revoking dangerous doctrines, resolves the thorny issues, ends unabated militarization, Pakistan should be willing to respond.
Until then, who knows if more may come from Pakistan in terms of variety of delivery means at the pace the Pakistani strategic planners are moving! The choice of making peace rests with India; Pakistan was only a reluctant entrant in the nuclear club. In the meanwhile, it seems to have been a short distance from Cold Start to Cold Feet.

Rubbish...Article By an Amateur Civilian.

ABM systems
AeroStat Radar
GP Radar Surveillance.

Not Gonna Talk on Fissile Material.

PAF a 3rd Degree Airforce which is incapable with 3 SQn F16 to even CAP to its NUCLEAR/ Leadership Structures

Are you suggesting a TBM can change the course of Battle. Then Looking at SMEARCH, I should say it will decimate all Pak-oRBAT.

Gentlemen please post articles with substance not some cheap Journalism
 
When the operation Cold Start begins, Pakistan would know the power of this operation when there would two Pakistan instead of one, cut into two right at Multan.

Nasr missile without tactical nuclear weapons is a paper tiger. If the nuclear weapons are unleashed then there would not be two Pakistan, but none. Just nuclear waste land.

Yes there would be third of India as a rubble but there would 800 million still left to build India back. (I am quoting Mao Tse Tung for that last piece).

So before you get carried away by that stupidity of Nasr missile, think again. It is worthless and useless. The flip side is that when Cold Start begins, within three days thre would be two independent Pakistan with border at Multan.
 
Rubbish...Article By an Amateur Civilian.

ABM systems
AeroStat Radar
GP Radar Surveillance.

Not Gonna Talk on Fissile Material.

PAF a 3rd Degree Airforce which is incapable with 3 SQn F16 to even CAP to its NUCLEAR/ Leadership Structures

Are you suggesting a TBM can change the course of Battle. Then Looking at SMEARCH, I should say it will decimate all Pak-oRBAT.

Gentlemen please post articles with substance not some cheap Journalism

:rofl::rofl:

You need to spend some more time in this forum and learn about military affairs before you make a complete baboon out of yourself again.

Many senior indian members claim that there is nothing as "cold-start" ...or atleast not in the manner that we presume it to be. Your rhetoric is not only childish, but boring since these things have been debunked trillions of times.

PAF might be a third-rate force but it won't be facing USAF. It will be facing a junkard , fourth rate, illcapable force with ill- trained bafoon pilots flying their migs...So not a big deal for PAF.

Also, 200+ fighters equipped with LATEST state-of-the-art BVRs , backed by AWACS/Radar stations, and augmented by SAM network etc will be wayyyyy more than enough to keep a force like iaf at bay....We all know PAF spanked iaf in previous full-fledged air wars over subcontinent.

Your "SMEARCH" isn't some super weapon either...:lol: Pakistan's A-100 MRLS , stand-off weapons etc will toast your smearch..indian generals know all this, hence they don't have balls to mess with Pakistan (as seen again and again in 2001/02, 2008 mumbai attacks, and even this recent escalation)...you on the other hand can blabber like a duck all you want...:lol:

When the operation Cold Start begins, Pakistan would know the power of this operation when there would two Pakistan instead of one, cut into two right at Multan.

Nasr missile without tactical nuclear weapons is a paper tiger. If the nuclear weapons are unleashed then there would not be two Pakistan, but none. Just nuclear waste land.

Yes there would be third of India as a rubble but there would 800 million still left to build India back. (I am quoting Mao Tse Tung for that last piece).

So before you get carried away by that stupidity of Nasr missile, think again. It is worthless and useless. The flip side is that when Cold Start begins, within three days thre would be two independent Pakistan with border at Multan.

Sardar ji, chawlan na maro...thora time spend karo aithay..tuhano sub kch ap hi pta lag jau ga....

Btw, these things have been discussed it detaillllllllllllllllllllllllllll....In a nuclear war..REAL LOSER will be india/indians because of their size...don't waste our time please.

BTW, a nuclear war will eradicate Sikhism and its holy sites too...
 
When the operation Cold Start begins, Pakistan would know the power of this operation when there would two Pakistan instead of one, cut into two right at Multan.

Nasr missile without tactical nuclear weapons is a paper tiger. If the nuclear weapons are unleashed then there would not be two Pakistan, but none. Just nuclear waste land.

Yes there would be third of India as a rubble but there would 800 million still left to build India back. (I am quoting Mao Tse Tung for that last piece).

So before you get carried away by that stupidity of Nasr missile, think again. It is worthless and useless. The flip side is that when Cold Start begins, within three days thre would be two independent Pakistan with border at Multan.

Agreed on the bold part.....when it begins or should we say if it ever begins....until then it's cold feet and shall remain so forever because those at the helm know that the juvenile cold start has been squarely check mated. !!
 
I heard that there around 100 people are impacted due to some terrorist activity in Pakistan....So there is no need of any kind of cold start war game from India...The biggest enemey of Pakistan is the internal problem itself....And to some extent it is applicable for India too....So honestly, in future too India and Pakistan really donot have any capacity to do the war...
 
When the operation Cold Start begins, Pakistan would know the power of this operation when there would two Pakistan instead of one, cut into two right at Multan. .

Do you have any idea how much firepower we have in and around Multan? You sir need to search the net more to find the ORBAT of PA near Multan, and get an idea.

As for the cold start, well it has been discussed many time on this forum and on many other places, so stop dreaming please.
 
:rofl::rofl:

You need to spend some more time in this forum and learn about military affairs before you make a complete baboon out of yourself again.

Many senior indian members claim that there is nothing as "cold-start" ...or atleast not in the manner that we presume it to be. Your rhetoric is not only childish, but boring since these things have been debunked trillions of times.

PAF might be a third-rate force but it won't be facing USAF. It will be facing a junkard , fourth rate, illcapable force with ill- trained bafoon pilots flying their migs...So not a big deal for PAF.

Also, 200+ fighters equipped with LATEST state-of-the-art BVRs , backed by AWACS/Radar stations, and augmented by SAM network etc will be wayyyyy more than enough to keep a force like iaf at bay....We all know PAF spanked iaf in previous full-fledged air wars over subcontinent.

Your "SMEARCH" isn't some super weapon either...:lol: Pakistan's A-100 MRLS , stand-off weapons etc will toast your smearch..indian generals know all this, hence they don't have balls to mess with Pakistan (as seen again and again in 2001/02, 2008 mumbai attacks, and even this recent escalation)...you on the other hand can blabber like a duck all you want...:lol:



Sardar ji, chawlan na maro...thora time spend karo aithay..tuhano sub kch ap hi pta lag jau ga....

Btw, these things have been discussed it detaillllllllllllllllllllllllllll....In a nuclear war..REAL LOSER will be india/indians because of their size...don't waste our time please.

BTW, a nuclear war will eradicate Sikhism and its holy sites too...

Pick up one Aircraft from PAF arsenal and establish its superiority on your Opponent.

PAF ducked in 1999........... Be REALISTIC and SANE when replying Kid.

Thank you
 
as long as Pakistan blasts itself here and there India does not need any cold start, which will only ruin everything and unite the entire of Pakistan regardless of class,creed and religion..
 
Do you have any idea how much firepower we have in and around Multan? You sir need to search the net more to find the ORBAT of PA near Multan, and get an idea.

As for the cold start, well it has been discussed many time on this forum and on many other places, so stop dreaming please.

What good is that fire power when the IA Armoured Columns are going to be led by Rajnikant and Sunny Deol. Do you have any deterrent to stop the menace of Rajnikant and Sunny Deol in a tank? You have little to no chance of stopping them on bare foot, but put these two fellows in a tank and that little probability of success goes down the drain. Haven't you seen the movie Gadar, a single Sikh was strong enough to defeat an entire country. Enough Said
 
Agreed on the bold part.....when it begins or should we say if it ever begins....until then it's cold feet and shall remain so forever because those at the helm know that the juvenile cold start has been squarely check mated. !!

Problem solved..... Pakistani Nasr Missile has single handed killed all Indian Offensive doctrine. Now Indian Air or ground power has no idea of how to conduct itself in case of hostilities. Bravo!
 
Problem solved..... Pakistani Nasr Missile has single handed killed all Indian Offensive doctrine. Now Indian Air or ground power has no idea of how to conduct itself in case of hostilities. Bravo!

Dude, no one said NASR alone has countered the Indian doctrine, NASR albeit, specificaly designed for such doctorine, it's just a link in the chain..... kind of first line of defence.
 
Dude, no one said NASR alone has countered the Indian doctrine, NASR albeit, specificaly designed for such doctorine, it's just a link in the chain..... kind of first line of defence.

The op suggests the same.. anyhoo i have no intention of getting into the csd debate... I am pretty sure Indian military has no strength when it comes to any offensive or at-least that will be my take. As far as coflict is concerned, rest assured the main chink in the armor is not military but the political spinelessness that the entire system in new delhi suffers from.
 
Pick up one Aircraft from PAF arsenal and establish its superiority on your Opponent.

PAF ducked in 1999........... Be REALISTIC and SANE when replying Kid.

Thank you

Retarded kid, thats the point "one aircraft"? LMAO! Wars don't happen this way..

Also, PAF was never challenged by IAF. IAF stayed on THEIR side while PAF stayed on their side. Few locks from BOTH sides on each other..nothing unusual.

We all know who "ducked" after mumbai attacks....while PAF was deployed in the forward strike locations, was doing CAP operations new indian border, and was ready to go...indian airforce on the other hand was just talking and talking while their nation was literally begging for surgical strikes. Some iaf planes came in to..they were locked on, and "escorted" back to border lmao!
 
When the operation Cold Start begins, Pakistan would know the power of this operation when there would two Pakistan instead of one, cut into two right at Multan.

And fortunately, no more India!!



Nasr missile without tactical nuclear weapons is a paper tiger. If the nuclear weapons are unleashed then there would not be two Pakistan, but none. Just nuclear waste land.

Yes, the wasteland would be known as 'former India'!



Yes there would be third of India as a rubble but there would 800 million still left to build India back. (I am quoting Mao Tse Tung for that last piece).

You are confused, there will be multiple megaton nuclear devices for each and every Indian city to ensure that every little insect burns away!



So before you get carried away by that stupidity of Nasr missile, think again. It is worthless and useless. The flip side is that when Cold Start begins, within three days thre would be two independent Pakistan with border at Multan.

And as I said, no more India.......so it's a win-win situation anyway!
 

Back
Top Bottom