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China, Iran and Russia can easily attack US aircraft carriers with new technology

True. I also agree that sinking is overrated. An explosion like the picture above on a real carrier would probably start a chain explosion by nearby jet fighters and their ammunition or fuel adding more to the destruction. Bottom line, its deck won't be able to be used as a runway anymore and with that all of the aircrafts on board will render useless.

On the other hand just damaging it and not sinking it might prove more beneficial as in case of total destruction, its escort can leave their post and carry on independent missions. While if only damaged, they need to stay with it and escort it out of danger. That way, they are out of the equation too.

Absolutely. When a vessel as important as a carrier gets mission killed. The scenario will quickly change from one that is an attack mission, to that of a defence and rescue.

Not only will they have to deal with the damaged or undamaged aircrafts, equipments, they would also have to deal with thousands of panicking and injured personnels onboard.

If they, somehow, managed to pull off the defence and rescue mission, they would still have to inject a lot of money and man power into repairing the carrier and other damaged crafts and equipments. This will cost them valuable time and resources.
 
Iran, Pakistan should look into the developing the conventional AIP sub of Chinese 032 type with SLBM/ Cruise missile VLS. India is going to have its ballistic missile sub in service soon.
Well Iran just tested its submarine launching cruise missile last year. I'm sure there are things in the work to make Khalije Fars ASBM seaborn as well. However, for now Iran doesn't have any international naval ambitions. For protecting its immediate vicinity, 2000 km range ASBMs are enough which are already at its disposal.
 
China just needs one bitch slap to calm down.. And that one is coming soon ;)
It's a bit hard to slap a 1.3 billion strong nation equipped with modern war technology. In other words, it is not going to happen.
 
Well comparing unguided bullets with guided missiles is like comparing AA missiles with manual AAA. The missiles are designed to hit the target using various sensors. They have a probability of hitting above 85% unless something destroys them before they hit while the bullets fired from a gun are as good as the person who shot them. I'm sure the statistics from a sniper kill rate is much better than what you mentioned above.

LOL.......whatever you say buddy :)

I stopped reading after the bolded part....Just so you know, I have my share of calling airstrike. I have called both guided and non-guided weapon for close air support, and the result may have shock you.

And if you think these missile is indeed comparable to sniper, be my guess, again, the DF-21D series missile have been discussed many, MANY, MANY time before, and I am not gonna waste bandwidth and reopen it.
 
LOL.......whatever you say buddy :)

I stopped reading after the bolded part....Just so you know, I have my share of calling airstrike. I have called both guided and non-guided weapon for close air support, and the result may have shock you.

And if you think these missile is indeed comparable to sniper, be my guess, again, the DF-21D series missile have been discussed many, MANY, MANY time before, and I am not gonna waste bandwidth and reopen it.
You're right: You didn't read my comment.
 
LOL.......whatever you say buddy :)

I stopped reading after the bolded part....Just so you know, I have my share of calling airstrike. I have called both guided and non-guided weapon for close air support, and the result may have shock you.

And if you think these missile is indeed comparable to sniper, be my guess, again, the DF-21D series missile have been discussed many, MANY, MANY time before, and I am not gonna waste bandwidth and reopen it.

Wasn't that because you kept calling airstrikes through Facebook ! :tongue:
 
The Center for a New American Security says the US relies on old tactics

It might be important to note that despite it's very military sounding name, the 'Center for a New American Security' is nothing of the sort. It is a political "think tank" started and run by Democratic Party members who's interest is primarily to provide America's left-wing party with legitimacy in pursuing their goal of slashing defence spending and dramatically reducing the size of my country's armed forces.

I do not put much stock in what they have to say. :disagree:
 
Wasn't that because you kept calling airstrikes through Facebook ! :tongue:

lol I have deleted my FB acc since I got married

You're right: You didn't read my comment.

What to read??

you expect something to perform up to standard.
I know for a fact that nothing is ever going to do what they supposed to.

By the way, just giving you a brain tease. The US and Russia both researched about ASBM in the 70s, do you know why both of them don't field them today? Is it because they cannot make those, which is above their technological level? Or they are indeed useless??

Judging from a FACT that any missile required the target to get into its range first, I would bet any money I have on the latter
 
lol I have deleted my FB acc since I got married



What to read??

you expect something to perform up to standard.
I know for a fact that nothing is ever going to do what they supposed to.

By the way, just giving you a brain tease. The US and Russia both researched about ASBM in the 70s, do you know why both of them don't field them today? Is it because they cannot make those, which is above their technological level? Or they are indeed useless??

Judging from a FACT that any missile required the target to get into its range first, I would bet any money I have on the latter
Exactly, that's why any weapon has a hit probability. 85% hitting chance mean there is always 15% chance for it to miss. So if you fire 2, you have a 1-0.15^2=97.75% chance of success you may still be out of luck and miss because it is still not 100% accuracy so you fire salvos and one of them will eventually hit.

On the other hand, both US and Russia have airforce potent enough to carry their naval cruise missiles to where they want and successfully fire it at the target. So developing an ASBM may not make sense. While same cannot be said about China and Iran. So they develop ASBM to cover that shortcoming.
 
Exactly, that's why any weapon has a hit probability. 85% hitting chance mean there is always 15% chance for it to miss. So if you fire 2, you have a 1-0.15^2=97.75% chance of success you may still be out of luck and miss because it is still not 100% accuracy so you fire salvos and one of them will eventually hit.

On the other hand, both US and Russia have airforce potent enough to carry their naval cruise missiles to where they want and successfully fire it at the target. So developing an ASBM may not make sense. While same cannot be said about China and Iran. So they develop ASBM to cover that shortcoming.

I like how you side-step the major argument of "Range" instead keep talking about an abstract probability of the missile accuracy.

Another thing, weapon development is never about potency, but about effectiveness of any weapon. If it is like what you say, the US Air Force is a global force, it is potent enough to carry operation globally, then why the US need a navy??

Anyway, enough of talking to you. As I said, you can think what you want, I mean, it's your imagination.
 
lol I have deleted my FB acc since I got married

What to read??

you expect something to perform up to standard.
I know for a fact that nothing is ever going to do what they supposed to.

By the way, just giving you a brain tease. The US and Russia both researched about ASBM in the 70s, do you know why both of them don't field them today? Is it because they cannot make those, which is above their technological level? Or they are indeed useless??

Judging from a FACT that any missile required the target to get into its range first, I would bet any money I have on the latter

Similar to 100,000 bullets for a kill.
But Ballistic Missile isn't cheap as a bullet
 
Similar to 100,000 bullets for a kill.
But Ballistic Missile isn't cheap as a bullet

Can't say that it is the same, but in a way, on average, US army uses 2,000,000 bullet to train one special force soldier.

So.......I am getting there..
 
It might be important to note that despite it's very military sounding name, the 'Center for a New American Security' is nothing of the sort. It is a political "think tank" started and run by Democratic Party members who's interest is primarily to provide America's left-wing party with legitimacy in pursuing their goal of slashing defence spending and dramatically reducing the size of my country's armed forces.

I do not put much stock in what they have to say. :disagree:
Thanks for clarifying this.:D

What do you think about this guy Harry Kazianis ( a non-resident Senior Fellow for Defense Policy atthe Center for the National Interest , a non-resident Senior Fellow atthe China Policy Institute as well as a fellow for National Security affairs at the Potomac Foundation. He is the former Executive Editor of The National Interest and former Editor-In-Chief ofThe Diplomat) and his very long new piece?

America's Aircraft Carriers, Submarines and Stealth Weapons: All Obsolete? | The National Interest Blog

Harry J. Kazianis
February 25, 2016

The nuclear-powered aircraft carrier. The nuclear-powered submarine. Ultra-advanced stealth bombers and fighters. These all represent the most lethal, sophisticated and expensive weapons in the U.S. military’s mighty arsenal—and they might soon all be close to obsolete.

Well, at least if certain technological trends bear fruit, according to a number of think-tank reports, research studies and in-depth essays that have been published over the last year.

And while it might not all come to pass, or at least not right away and certainly not all at once, the trend lines are clear: America’s military, if it wants to retain its unrivaled dominance on the battlefields of the future, will need to do a great deal of soul searching and investment to maintain its edge over nations like Russia, China and many others in the years to come.

And as Slater points out, China is increasingly able to target U.S. carriers at range (and well past the ability of their carrier strike aircraft to safely attack from out of range):

“China appears intent upon increasing its ASBM [anti-ship ballistic missile] capabilities further and, at a recent military parade commemorating the end of World War II, revealed that it may have an ASBM variant of a substantially longer-range missile—the DF-26. As with the DF-21D, estimates of the capabilities of the DF-26 vary widely; however, it is thought to have a range of 1,620 to 2,160 nm and to have both conventional and nuclear warheads. If accurate and operational, this system would give China the ability to strike targets within the second island chain – including those in and around the U.S. territory of Guam – as well as those throughout the entirety of the Bay of Bengal. In the event of a wider conflict, these systems could also reach targets throughout much, if not all, of the Arabian Sea.”

U.S. Subs Face New Challenges

As for America’s nuclear-powered submarine force, the threats to its continued dominance in undersea warfare seem a little more further off, but nonetheless, something that must be planned for.

Once again, the Washington-based think-tank universe provides us some important clues concerning the challenges ahead. In a report by the always smart Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments (CSBA), as well as in a follow on piece in this publication partly excerpted below, CSBA Senior Fellow Bryan Clark lays out the challenge to America’s submarine force:


“Since the Cold War, submarines, particularly quiet American ones, have been considered largely immune to adversary A2/AD capabilities. But the ability of submarines to hide through quieting alone will decrease as each successive decibel of noise reduction becomes more expensive and as new detection methods mature that rely on phenomena other than sounds emanating from a submarine. These techniques include lower frequency active sonar and non-acoustic methods that detect submarine wakes or (at short ranges) bounce laser or light-emitting diode (LED) light off a submarine hull. The physics behind most of these alternative techniques has been known for decades, but was not exploited because computer processors were too slow to run the detailed models needed to see small changes in the environment caused by a quiet submarine. Today, ‘big data’ processing enables advanced navies to run sophisticated oceanographic models in real time to exploit these detection techniques. As they become more prevalent, they could make some coastal areas too hazardous for manned submarines.”

From there the problem gets worse. Clark’s CSBA report sees even more problems ahead:

“New sensors and related improvements to torpedo seekers could enable completely new approaches to finding and attacking submarines. Most significantly, anti-submarine warfare (ASW) forces could shift away from today’s skill- and labor-intensive tactics that result from the short detection range of sensors that are precise enough to support ASW engagements. This limitation requires ASW ships and aircraft to methodically search a wide area for a submarine, then track it until they can get within weapons range for an attack. New sensor and seeker capabilities could instead enable a “fire and forget” approach in which ASW forces detect a submarine at long range and apply computer processing to obtain enough precision for an attack using long-range missiles with torpedo warheads. This kind of attack may not sink the submarine, but would likely compel it to at least evade, breaking its initiative and making it more detectable.”

RIP Stealth?

Finally, we come to America’s growing fleet of stealth fighters and long-range bombers. It seems advances in new types of radars could provide the targeting information needed to take down some of Washington’s most advanced aircraft—and most expensive.

As National Interest Defense Editor, Dave Majumdar, points out, “China appears to be building a new high-frequency radar on an artificial feature in the Spratly Islands that could allow Beijing to track even the stealthiest American warplanes, including the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor, F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and even the Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit.” He explains, in greater detail, that:

“While the system is called a high-frequency (HF) radar—that’s bit of a misnomer. HF radars actually operate on low frequencies relative to the VHF, UHF, L, S, C, X and Ku bands, which are more typically used by military radars. These low frequencies have waves that are several meters long and, consequently, most stealth aircraft show up on HF radar. In order to defeat low frequency radar, a stealth aircraft has to eliminate features like fins, which is why the flying-wing shape is the best way available to avoid detection. That is because there is an omnidirectional resonance effect that occurs when a feature on an aircraft—such as a tail-fin—is less than eight times the size of a particular frequency wavelength. As a result, there is a step change in radar cross section once that threshold is exceeded. Since every stealth aircraft currently in America’s fleet exceeds that threshold—even the B-2 is not large enough to avoid most HF radars—every U.S. aircraft would show up on the Chinese radar. Indeed—all stealth aircraft will show up at some frequency.”

How Should America Respond?

So what is Washington doing about the threats listed above?

First off, when it comes to America’s carriers, it should be noted that no one really knows how deadly China’s anti-ship missiles, especially at long-ranges, would be in a real firefight. For example, can Beijing find a U.S. carrier in the massive Pacific Ocean? Can they defeat American missile defenses? And as for the case of the dangers poised to advanced submarines, at least as of now, such threats are more on the drawing board than a clear and present danger. As for the challenges posed to stealth, that seems a more realistic and present-day challenge U.S. officials will have to deal with. (They seem to be working on negating the challenge as we speak).

America’s Carriers vs. China’s Missiles: Who Wins?


The aircraft carrier, a symbol of American naval and overall power projection capabilities, seems under the most threat of being rendered a relic of the past. Almost every week, a new report casts a dark shadow on the future of this important U.S. military asset.

Take, for example, the recent report released by the Center for New American Security (CNAS) smartly titled,Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.” Author Kelley Sayler, an associate fellow at CNAS, argues that “the short, medium, and long-range threats to the carrier–including SAMs and other anti-access/area denial capabilities (A2/AD), in which China is investing heavily” will create a situation where American carriers “will not be able to act with impunity in the event of future conflict.” As Sayler explains in great detail in her report, carriers

“will face a dense and growing threat across their full range of operations as A2/AD systems continue to proliferate. Operating the carrier in the face of increasingly lethal and precise munitions will thus require the United States to expose a multibillion-dollar asset to high levels of risk in the event of a conflict. Indeed, under such circumstances, an adversary with A2/AD capabilities would likely launch a saturation attack against the carrier from a variety of platforms and directions. Such an attack would be difficult—if not impossible—to defend against.”

However, there is a clear recognition in the Pentagon that America’s chief competitors, namely great power challengers like China and Russia, are catching up to many of the U.S. military's chief abilities to project power or are quickly finding ways to negate such capabilities. While the Obama Administration’s recent budget request does smartly increase funding for research and development, I can’t help but wonder if such investments might be too little, too late. There is also the very real possibility that a new administration will have its own priorities, slowing down or possibly cancelling any modernization efforts that could make a real difference. In fact, members on Capitol Hill seem to take such a possibility seriously. As Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC), chairman of the House Armed Services Subcommittee, recently explained,

“This budget request is a good step in tackling the modernization challenges of the Department. Activities like the Third Offset Strategy and the Long Range Research and Development Plan are important to charting a course that takes a strategic view of the security environment; however, I remain concerned that it is too little too late. As I see it, starting major initiatives at the end of an administration makes it difficult to ensure that these things will survive the new budgetary and policy priorities that will naturally arise with a new President. I hope I am wrong, since I support many of the things being proposed in this budget request, but only time will tell.”

Indeed, only time will tell.

Can't say that it is the same, but in a way, on average, US army uses 2,000,000 bullet to train one special force soldier.

So.......I am getting there..
Haha, why need training if you have this?
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What do you think about this guy Harry Kazianis

I don't know him and while his views may have some merit I tend to put much more credence in the opinions of those admirals and sailors who have actually fought in battle and who's lives are put in harms way on a regular basis in their task of actually defending their countries rather than the opinions of academic discussions and civilian so-called experts. I have also been in uniform for enough years that I can remember hearing about the obsolescence of the aircraft carrier for about as long as I have been hearing about the obsolescence of the main battle tank and yet country after country, after all these years, still finds the MBT indispensable. For every measure there is always a countermeasure which I'm sure will keep the aircraft carrier a vital platform for power projection, hence why both the Russian Navy and the Chinese Navy, are both investing heavily in both current and future aircraft carrier projects. I think what some really want to put forth is the silly idea that only American aircraft carriers are mysteriously, no longer worthwhile while Russian and Chinese carriers are just somehow....different. I mean the gist of your posted information seems to be, "All advanced American weapons are now useless." :lol: It's really kinda' funny in it's desperation.

Officials Confirm Construction of First Domestic Chinese Aircraft Carrier - USNI News

Russia Developing Nuclear-Powered Aircraft Carrier: Report
 
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...some really want to put forth is the silly idea that only American aircraft carriers are mysteriously, no longer worthwhile while Russian and Chinese carriers are just somehow....different.
That have been the pattern of 'debate' -- using the word generously -- when it comes to technology. That somehow non-American technologies are better than American technologies. As soon as the author of an article critical of the US military uses the words 'could', or 'maybe', or 'possible', or similar, magically the US military is rendered technologically impotent while Russian and Chinese technologies are equally magically immune.

It seems advances in new types of radars could provide the targeting information needed to take down some of Washington’s most advanced aircraft—and most expensive.

Source: China, Iran and Russia can easily attack US aircraft carriers with new technology | Page 4

None of the authors cited dared to be definitive, as in using the words 'will' or 'certainly'. As a group, these writers embarrassed themselves on Desert Storm so now no one want to put his dick -- reputation -- on the chopping block. But as long as they use enough words open to interpretation, their jobs are assured as their articles would attract enough attention from the likes of people on this forum desperate for anything to grasp to use against the US.
 
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