Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[帅的一匹]

Keep cheat the NATO. We are weak, our engine sucks, some BS like that. As long as the west got arrogance, they will make themself to believe what they are told. f22 stopped production is the best news.

 

[grey boy 2]

This maybe where J-20 will be station at=(空军鼎新试训基地)

发表于 2016-12-8 13:20 | 只看该作者 |只看大图

空军鼎新试训基地。空军鼎新试训基地位于甘肃内蒙古交界的巴丹吉林沙漠附近，地(空)域辽阔，区内分布有戈壁沙漠丘陵等复杂地形，人烟稀少，保密性较强。鼎新基地主要担负空对空，空对地导弹及空军新型武器装备的试验打靶，试飞及新战法的研练和考核等任务，是空军集科研训练为一体的多功能试训中心，被誉为“中国的51区”。基地拥有亚洲最大的军用机场，并配有模拟台湾清泉岗空军基地的机场靶标和用于进行武器试验和攻击演练的大型靶场。这些靶场除了用于部队训练任务外，也是新型作战飞机进行武器系统测试的重要场地。鼎新基地曾多次举办空军金头盔金飞镖自由空战体系对抗等大型演习，其地位已有超越沧州试训基地的势头。目前该基地装备有从现役到领先服役的各型战斗机和战斗轰炸机(78X6X，78X7X)，包括J-8F，JH-7A，J-10S，J-11B，J-10B/C，J-16和最新曝光的J-20等，在历次演习中常扮演蓝军的角色，用于检验各种新战法新装备的实战效果。

J8F 7806X，J11B 7816X，JH7A 7826X，J10S 7836X，J10C 7807X， J16 7817X，J20 7827X

 

[Dungeness]

不该说的不说，不该问的不问，不该看的不看，不该听的不听。

 

[siegecrossbow]

This maybe where J-20 will be station at=(空军鼎新试训基地)

发表于 2016-12-8 13:20 | 只看该作者 |只看大图

空军鼎新试训基地。空军鼎新试训基地位于甘肃内蒙古交界的巴丹吉林沙漠附近，地(空)域辽阔，区内分布有戈壁沙漠丘陵等复杂地形，人烟稀少，保密性较强。鼎新基地主要担负空对空，空对地导弹及空军新型武器装备的试验打靶，试飞及新战法的研练和考核等任务，是空军集科研训练为一体的多功能试训中心，被誉为“中国的51区”。基地拥有亚洲最大的军用机场，并配有模拟台湾清泉岗空军基地的机场靶标和用于进行武器试验和攻击演练的大型靶场。这些靶场除了用于部队训练任务外，也是新型作战飞机进行武器系统测试的重要场地。鼎新基地曾多次举办空军金头盔金飞镖自由空战体系对抗等大型演习，其地位已有超越沧州试训基地的势头。目前该基地装备有从现役到领先服役的各型战斗机和战斗轰炸机(78X6X，78X7X)，包括J-8F，JH-7A，J-10S，J-11B，J-10B/C，J-16和最新曝光的J-20等，在历次演习中常扮演蓝军的角色，用于检验各种新战法新装备的实战效果。

J8F 7806X，J11B 7816X，JH7A 7826X，J10S 7836X，J10C 7807X， J16 7817X，J20 7827X

Probably using the J-20 to emulate Western fifth gen like the F-22 and F-35 in BVR engagements.

 

[grey boy 2]

Found a nice HD pic

 

[Deino]

This maybe where J-20 will be station at=(空军鼎新试训基地)


发表于 2016-12-8 13:20 | 只看该作者 |只看大图

That's Dingxin as expected ... and the new hangars are also finished since July this year.
However all other aircraft mentioned in this report are not based there but at Cangzhou-Cangxian.

Deino

 

[randomradio]

They could have ask Salyut to provide the engine but what we know from the process of PAFKA. The whole project looks stall.

PAK FA's not stalled. New prototypes have already finished first flights. There is no news about the program.

There is no evidence Salyut provide or sell the so called powerful 147kn thrust to China. As I say if there is, there will not so much noise of Su-35 sales to China for the engine.

No, Salyut has multiple engines, not just the ones that lost the PAK FA. They have created engines for the Su-35, Su-34 and PAK FA, lost competition for Su-35 and PAK FA. Su-34's Salyut engines have uprated thrust as well. All these engines are 14+T.

 

[Ultima Thule]

PL-15 (see post 6856#)
Also the Russian RVV-BD and KS-172 were said to have 150 km (direct shot) and 400 km (under cruise gliding profile) reach.

Your source?

I think until the time we can all agree on this, we have to live on how to disagree.

PL-15 has a range of 160 Km not 500 Km both Russian projects are dead not even in mass produced

 

[Asoka]

View attachment 358634

Could @Asok be the white knight once more?

Actually my point is people advocating for the use of the Chinese engines would not be so unwise to put every thing they have got on the line. And even they were, they certainly would not have chosen the bet on the J-20 with which the secret could not kept for long. There is no needs in this, it is not the end of the World for the PLAAF even the Russian engines are still used for J-20.

The problem of we fanboys is that we know so little or none in the field of aeronautical engineering and we don't have inside sources of knowledge to based our judgements. In any field, there are certain common things that if we were professionals, we would completely rule them out, while outsiders are clueless about them.

So if we found someone who have a track record of non B.S. knowledge, luck for us. I would go to him directly.

"刀口" or Daokou is such a person. He is obviously a long time military fan and has accumulated certain amount of technical knowledge, although still may be superficial.

What clued me in that J-20 CANNOT have used non-WS-15 engine for testing for the last 5 years is that only it could allow J-20 to test Supersonic Cruise and Supersonic Maneuvers. This is the two of the four 4S. Superior Supersonic Cruise and Supersonic Maneuvers are two of the main reasons that F-22 is hard to defeat even in close range combat.

If PLAAF can't test Supersonic Cruise and Supersonic Maneuvers, there is no way they will accept them into the production or even pre-production phase. Supersonic Maneuvers test the structure strength and flight control systems to the Max. J-20 has 8 differential control surfaces, Canards, and TVC nozzles. A very complex, sophisticated and advanced control system is required. They probably take the longest time to develop and most dangerous, since it is software control, you can't determine the outcome by pure logical deduction or visual inspection. It must be thoroughly tested in ALL combinations of scenarios and situations.

I am a software engineer. I know "ALL combinations" means. It means a humongous number of scenarios. Every time, you had made a change. You have to test All the combinations again.

For example, if you have Speed (stall, post-install, low subsonic speed, high subsonic speed, supersonic speed, maximum speed), Attitude (Sea level, low attitude, medium attitude, high attitude, maximum attitude), Weight (empty weight, combat weight, maximum weight), you would need to test various combinations of these (17) factors.

"Combinatorial explosion is a fundamental problem in computing. It is the problem that the number of combinations that one has to examine grows exponentially"

So testing the flight control of J-20 is a huge task, and you can't even begin to test it, much less test it thoroughly, if you don't have the engines to enable J-20 to do sustained Supersonic Maneuvers.

This is one major reason Yang Wei, China's foremost Flight Control Expert, is the Chief Designer of J-20. Only he could understand how to fully test the Flight Control and Structural Integrity of J-20 to the Max. The Complexity of the Flight Control System has came to dominate the complexity of the 5th generation plane. Movable Canards and TVC nozzles have seriously complicated the flight control. This is reason why only in the 1980's was the Engineers able to used them successfully, because before that time, there was no computers powerful enough to control them.

Software, massive amount of code, is the Genie and Devil lurking in modern airplanes.

To test the Flight Control System means to find out the extreme limits of the Structural Integrity and Aerodynamics configurations and how the system will response to it.

This is very ticklish. It means you want to push the plane and pilot to the limit without falling down from the sky. Many planes were lost when they cross this boundary.

So when I was reminded by "刀口" or Daokou, who likely was informed by a professional engineer or insider about this problem, this settle the Engine issue for me.

There is no way could J-20 use a different engines (because they can't do Supersonic Cruise and Supersonic Maneuvers) other that WS-15 for testing. While the superficial similarity of the engine petals could be explain away as engineering choices, like all cars have 4 wheels and one steering wheel, but no cars have one wheel and 4 steering wheels.

There is no reason why WS-10, AL-31 and WS-15's petals MUST be totally different, and CANNOT be similar.

None could I see.

Those people who are stuck in this thinking must supply the reasons as evidences as to WHY they can not be similar, not merely keep pointing J-20's petals are similar to WS-10 or AL-31.

They can be similar, got it? Unless you could come up with strong reasons, why they can not.

The explanation that J-20 used an early model of WS-15 with petals superficially similar to WS-10 and AL-31 is the most plausible explanation to me.

No one has come up with a reason that COMPLETELY-EXCLUDE this possibility.

People have demanded that we come up with evidences or reason for being Pro-WS-15, I now demand reasons, why J-20 COULD-NOT-HAVE-POSSIBLY used WS-15 already.

The excuse that it is possible J-20 have used WS-15, but not probable is seriously lame.

 

[samsara]

J-20 stealth fighter tops the Xinhua's list of China's Scientific And Technological Achievements In 2016
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2016-12/08/c_135889958.htm

A more thorough info along with the pics was put in its designated thread:
https://defence.pk/threads/china-science-technology-forum.249386/page-82#post-8991516

 

[Asoka]

Remember this picture, which shows a mysterious J-20 like engine near the entrance of a highway on top of a truck? While I can not be sure of the authenticity of the picture, but it do clearly shows there are 10 flaming links inside the engine. (WS-10A/B has 8, and AL-31FN has 11.)

Here is the a picture that no doubt it's a J-20. It also shows it has 10 afterburner flaming links.

There are 6 flaming links (2-8) that are clearly shown, while the the rest are blurry. The other positions are deduced from the clear ones. While we can argue it might has 11 not 10 flamings links, but it clearly has more than 8.

So the possibility the engine is WS-10A/B can be ruled out.

Similarly, here in this J-20 picture below, 5 afterburner flaming links are clearly shown and they occupy HALF of the Nozzle. 5 times 2 you got 10, not 8. Again, this doesn't rule out it's a AL-31FN, but it does RULE OUT it's a WS-10A/B.

 

[nang2]

What is all this engine talk, especially from Chinese? Are you some overworking, volunteering spies for foreign agencies? As if those paid foreign spies ain't working hard enough in combing through all these pictures to find every single clue, you just have to help them out, don't you?

 

[Asoka]

What is all this engine talk, especially from Chinese? Are you some overworking, volunteering spies for foreign agencies? As if those paid foreign spies ain't working enough in combing all these pictures to find very single clue, you just have to help them out, don't you?

Yes, we do need to help them understand, those Western Imperialists are not very bright. They need some help from us.

They are quite convinced that although China might be catching fast, we are still decades behind them in military technology, so if they want to start a war with China, they better do it now or soon rather than later.

Hence, all the belligerent war talks B.S. about China in the MSM.

The Truth is we had already caught up and even surpassed them in some areas.

 

[Deino]

PLEASE !!! Really Please stop this nonsense !

You are using images of unconfirmed status (aka that strange engine or whatever on a lorry), You use blurred images and put lines on whatever You like ! - a few pixels to the side would be as reasonable - and even more Your logic is plain unscientific: Since we cannot proof the contrary it must be true !!

Come on, by that logic, since I cannot prove that there no tiny green men on Mars, You assume there must be some !

Really ... maybe we can at least agree that we don't know for sure, what engine the J-20 uses. Confirmed is simply nothing !

As such, You and a few others here have Your opinion and I + also a few others have mine ... time will tell.

But to over and over again post the same blurred images, or images of what we don't know what it is as facts is simply not correct ... at least for me as a nature scientist !

Deino

 

[Beast]

PAK FA's not stalled. New prototypes have already finished first flights. There is no news about the program.



No, Salyut has multiple engines, not just the ones that lost the PAK FA. They have created engines for the Su-35, Su-34 and PAK FA, lost competition for Su-35 and PAK FA. Su-34's Salyut engines have uprated thrust as well. All these engines are 14+T.

PAFKA has no news ever since the last flame out of 117S Engine. The Russi has a big problem with engine.

Russia has stated they will send only sell uprated engine tie to the so called so called Su-35 deal. Then now seems to have China no problem buying uprated engine? Then why so much of Su-35 deal?