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Can an Islamic State be Secular?

T-Faz

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If you seek an affirmative answer using the orthodox version of Islam as represented by our conservative politico-religious groups then you are going to be disappointed. But if you analyze the mission of Prophet Muhammad (sw) rationally then you are likely to be pleasantly surprised. The more you see into his life the greater the gulf you find between his actions (Sunnah) and that of our so-called Islamic leaders. The following ten arguments would show that the demagogues and self-righteous Mullahs have completely subverted the teachings of Islam:

1. Freedom to practise religion:

As ruler of Arabia, Prophet Muhammad granted a charter to Christians by declaring for them the freedom to freely practice their faith. The pact guaranteed that any Christian can profess his or her faith, that no Christian woman can forcibly be converted by her Muslim husband and that Muslims are supposed to respect and protect churches. This letter, sent to St. Catherine’s Monastery in Sinai, was an unprecedented testament to the magnanimity and liberality of Prophet Muhammad in an era when the world did not know tolerance. It is therefore extremely embarrassing that modern Muslim countries limit the practice of other faiths within their dominions.

2. Freedom of worship:

There were hundreds of idols in the sacred Kaaba that had been built by Abraham and consecrated for the worship of one God. Before he returned as the conqueror (and therefore as a ruler), the Prophet spent fifty years of his life in Mecca but never took the law in his own hands to demolish them. Certain puritanical brands of Islam, however, make it incumbent on themselves to ‘cleanse’ shrines and mosques of any trace of Shirk (polytheism). The hideous attack on Data Darbar in Lahore which is a mausoleum of an Islamic mystic is therefore yet another transgression by these deviants.

A famous hadith relates that the Prophet permitted Christian priests of Najran – who believed in Trinity- to offer their prayers in his mosque. Contrast this with how Mullahs of today literally wash their mosques with milk if ‘****** infidels’ (i.e. Muslims of other sects) happen to offer worship therein.

3. Prohibition of compulsion in faith:

A well-known Quranic verse states that ‘there is no compulsion in religion’ (2:256). Not many know of its context. Before the arrival of the Prophet, some polytheists of Madina had dedicated their children to be raised in the monotheistic Jewish tradition. The parents, who later converted to Islam, objected to when the Jewish guardians kept these children with them. However, the Prophet in the light of this Quranic verse refused them permission to forcibly take back their children and to convert them to Islam. Imagine the hell our religious parties would raise if children of Muslims were raised in a different faith.

4. Definition of Muslim:

A census was once conducted on the instruction of the Prophet to count the number of Muslims in Madina. The criterion set forth for being considered a Muslim for the purposes of census was only a simple declaration of Islam by the respondent (Sahih Bukhari). No distinction was made between momineen (true believers) or munafiqeen (hypocrites) in the final tally. In our era, however, a Pakistani parliament came up with a different definition of a Muslim for ‘the purposes of law’.

5. Equality of citizens:

The famous constitution Misaaq-i-Madina overseen by the Prophet declared that ‘the Jews and Muslims are one nation’ (Ummat-un-wahida). This charter negated any distinction and discrimination between the citizens of Madina and established their rights and responsibilities. It included a clause stipulating that every group – Muslim or otherwise – would defend the city against foreign attack. It is not without irony that in the armed services of Pakistan currently there is an unstated rule that no Ahmadi can advance beyond a certain rank regardless of his contributions (Slightly incorrect, many have served the highest positions pre Hudood Laws, since then they serve in large numbers without indicating their affiliation with Ahmadi Jamaat or do so too and are the largest minority group in any Muslim army of the world). Furthermore, our religious parties see nothing but an enemy in the form of a Jew who is fundamentally incapable of being a regular citizen of a state.

6. Blasphemy:

Contrary to popular belief, there is no death penalty for blasphemy in Islam. Abdallah bin Aby Salool, a chief of Madina and a known hypocrite, declared himself the ‘most honorable’ man and the Prophet the ‘most dishonorable’ person of the city (Quran 63:7). In response to this blasphemy, his own son, who was a pious Muslim, asked the Prophet for permission to kill his father. The Prophet completely refused. Abdallah later died a natural death unmolested by any of the Prophet’s companions and the Prophet himself led his funeral prayer.

Moreover, at both Mecca and Taif, while the Prophet bravely endured ruthless persecution and abuse, the opponents spared no moment in resorting to blasphemous language against him. None of his followers – the venerated Sahaba – ever attacked those who committed blasphemy during this period. Despite the hate and vitriol of his enemies, the Prophet instructed them steadfastness and resilience. Muslims of today who demand death penalty for Salman Rushdie or a ban on Facebook can take a lesson from this. They claim devotion to the Prophet but none of them bothers to spend their energy in raising their pens or voices in articulating the lofty virtue and nobility of character of their Prophet before a Non-Muslim audience.

7. Assistance from Non-Muslims:

The first Muslim migration from persecution in Mecca was to the Christian kingdom of Abbysinia whose ruler Najashi believed in tolerance and freedom of religion. He refused Qureshi demand for repatriation of these refugees. The Prophet openly showed his admiration and appreciation of Najashi for this act of benevolence. Contrast this with when our Mullahs declare anyone even remotely associated with the Christian West as an enemy of Islam.

8. Apostasy:

Simple apostasy or reneging from belief and which is not aggravated by war or rebellion is not punishable in Islam either. There is simply no basis from the conduct of the Prophet to having apostates killed. Ibn Abi Surh, once a Quranic scribe, became an apostate and engaged in open hostility to Muslims. The Prophet had given orders for his execution – not for apostasy per se – but for crimes of inciting vitriolic opposition and disorderliness against Muslims. During the conquest of Mecca, however, the Prophet mercifully forgave him.

If capital punishment for apostasy was part of religion, it was unlikely that the Prophet would have forgiven Ibn Abi Surh and that too at such an opportune moment. However, the bread and butter of the Mullah today is to work lists of apostates and to have them declared wajib-ul-qatal (worthy of slaying).

9. Obedience to a Non-Muslim authority:

The Prophet’s thirteen years of persecution in Mecca under a hostile authority of Qureish tribe should be sufficient to dispel that a Muslim cannot be loyal citizen of the state even if dominated by Non-Muslims. There is not a single moment where the Prophet broke the rules or norms of the city. When the council of Qureish asked him and his followers to relocate to Shaib-i-Abi-Talib, in violation of their rights, he complied. Furthermore, it was customary for a person coming to Mecca to seek ‘aman’ or protection from a Qureishi chieftain. When the Prophet returned from his well-known trip to Taif he took protection from Adi bin Matab, a polytheist, in following this custom.

These examples clearly go to show that secular obedience to a Non-Muslim authority is part of the Islamic faith. Deviating from the Sunnah, rebellious-minded Muslims never accept that a Non-Muslim can possess legitimate authority over a state.

10. Protection of Non-Muslim property:

At the battle of Khyber against a Jewish tribe, a herdsman incidentally converted to Islam. He also had with him herds belonging to his Jewish masters. Upon inquiring from the Prophet about what he should do with them, the Prophet instructed him to turn the animals back to their owners. If the protection of the property of Non-Muslims was not necessary then returning it to an enemy at a critical moment of war would have made no sense. In violation of the Prophet’s Sunnah, the Mullahs frequently declare that the lives, wives and properties of infidels are mubah (permitted).

The aforementioned arguments are not an apologetic defense of Islam before a secularist jury. They are necessary to establish that the original Sharia of Prophet Muhammad (sw) satisfies the rigorous demands of secularism as defined earlier. This endeavor is also necessary for two other reasons. Firstly, the fools who operate in the name of Islam and have brought much disrepute to their faith by their intransigence, ignorance and hostility need to be challenged and discredited very religiously. Secondly, the ears of many Pakistani Muslims are responsive to religious sermons rather than to secular ideals. Hatred and bigotry in Islam’s name can therefore be strongly refuted using the Prophet’s Sunnah.

The Prophet’s examples are a powerful reminder that his Islamic state offered tolerance, equality and justice to Muslims and Non-Muslims alike. Hence the rationale for why M. A. Jinnah repeatedly referenced the spirit of Islam in his speeches for Pakistan. Just like rational and decent people of Pakistan demand the Pakistan of Jinnah so must true and honest Muslims demand the Islam of the Prophet Muhammad (sw).

The so-called Islamic laws of Pakistan are a total mess and stand at odds with the Prophet’s instructions. If not for secularism then for Islam’s sake, the powers that be in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan must restore the rights and privileges of citizens which they are long due.

http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2010/07/04/can-an-islamic-state-be-secular/#more-9179
 
we have to be secular, otherwise we will all end up something similar to the taliban time.
 
brother t faz you shoudl know how talk of religion encourages comments by ignorent people here , which stares up unwanted reactions, nevertheless, Islam allows a secular scoeity to co-exist in the sense of freedom of belief for all, that does not mean that in a Islamic society one should be permitted to brign in all the secular evils of society to acomodate the needs of a minority.
 
Apostasy:

Simple apostasy or reneging from belief and which is not aggravated by war or rebellion is not punishable in Islam either. There is simply no basis from the conduct of the Prophet to having apostates killed. Ibn Abi Surh, once a Quranic scribe, became an apostate and engaged in open hostility to Muslims. The Prophet had given orders for his execution – not for apostasy per se – but for crimes of inciting vitriolic opposition and disorderliness against Muslims. During the conquest of Mecca, however, the Prophet mercifully forgave him.

If capital punishment for apostasy was part of religion, it was unlikely that the Prophet would have forgiven Ibn Abi Surh and that too at such an opportune moment. However, the bread and butter of the Mullah today is to work lists of apostates and to have them declared wajib-ul-qatal (worthy of slaying).

why can't there be just one interpretation


PS: Before any one jumps in I am not bashing anyone
 
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brother t faz you shoudl know how talk of religion encourages comments by ignorent people here , which stares up unwanted reactions, nevertheless, Islam allows a secular scoeity to co-exist in the sense of freedom of belief for all, that does not mean that in a Islamic society one should be permitted to brign in all the secular evils of society to acomodate the needs of a minority.

This is the correct answer to much extent.
In an Islamic state, there is no concept of Secularism.
Somehow people tend to confuse certain human rights
as an attribute or fruits of secularism only.

Many a laws that came from Islam are a woman's right to
get a divorce on any grounds, right to inheritance etc just to name
a few.

Muslim rulers are accountable for treatment to minorities, protection
of their religious places and such.

I theory, that may not have been practiced but that is the fault of
those who choose to ingnore them.

The thing is that the world doe not have any other countries to compare some Islamic countries to as almost all the West is secular
and there is not a single Christin country.

If you were e to go by , for example what the Catholics believe, namely that eventually the Church shall rule we would really have to wait and see how things turn out.
 
Islamic state can be secular. If following things are implemented.
1. Restrict mullahs activity to religious studies and preaching.
2. No fatwa on anything. It is like interfaring states affair.


Forgive me if it is offensive.
 
why can't there be just one interpretation

YouTube - Death Penalty for Apostates! (Dr. Zakir Naik)

PS: Before any one jumps in I am not bashing anyone

The punishment for apostasy is actually biblical ( old testament)
when the Israelite "mad" a golden calf and worshiped it while Moses (a.s) was up on the mountain receiving revelations and instructions for his people. Now, many a Hebrew scholars will tell you that these people were not really worshiping an idol, but really in the absence of Moses among them, an image of God in form of a calf.

Anyways, Moses "commanded" his brother Aaron's ( a.s) tribe to slaughter all offenders. I believe it say they executed about 3k or so in one day and only stopped when the command from "above" told them to.

Interestingly enough, the punishment for accepting a "idol worshiping" type religion under strict Jewish law is death as well.

Even under Islamic history, a lot of people were declared war on for being murtids esp. right after the prophet's death.
 
Islamic state can be secular. If following things are implemented.
1. Restrict mullahs activity to religious studies and preaching.
2. No fatwa on anything. It is like interfaring states affair.


Forgive me if it is offensive.

It is not offensive at all.

The point is , there is no Islamic sate in this world! That is a fact.
If there were to be, then it wont be secular in any sense.
A central religious council is a necessity in an Islamic society to ensure there is no confusion and for the sake of uniformity.

But rights and duties of minorities have to be protected even in Islamic state. That is a command, not an option.
 
Before you copy and paste atleast verify what you write, I dotn want to refute what you wrote but some of it is misinterpretaions, first of all by ibn surh you mean Abdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh, who converted to islam, its is doubtful if he is one of the srcibes, and he later accepetd islam again, and remained On track, he was forgivven upon the Intercession of uthman. Apostacy laws do not nessarily generate the death penalty , the laws are complex and detailed and certainly not how you percieve them, first of If that article is by you, it looks more like pasted from somewhere, The muslim abides by the law of the land he or she lives in. If in a islamic state , its by sharia, and if in a non muslim land its by the law of the land. it also shows that the author of the criticism is either ignorant in the field of Islamic Law or his goal is to deceive as many people as he can. In terms of Islamic Law, there are two categories of crimes. The ones named by God (such as murder, theft, fornication etc.) to which is applied the proper punishment "Hudood"(the singular is 'Hadd'). And the ones not named by God, their evaluation and their punishment (called ta'dhîr) are left for the judgment of the sovereign, or faqih. BUT in a Islamic State.

And what has such a discussion to do with a military forum is beyond me , i wonder if moderators get monitored or not lol, Mr T has wondered of, and has imported all the Religion bashers here
 
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Islam is a Liberator & a Secular religion in its own as Islam is not a Religion but a Deen which means a system.

If secular ideas mean the Freedom of all kinds then Islam is secular itself but the modern Secularism = La - deeniyat which rips Religion from the Mainstream and it is not what Islam teaches.

Sharia Law is the right solution to Pakistan - not a version of TTP - not a version of any fanatical Mullah but the True Essenes of Islamic system with democratic values.

I truly do not want Pakistan to become a Bikini Land but a place where everyone has freedoms of all kind while taking care of their Religious and Cultural values.

Regards: :pakistan:
 
Islam is a Liberator & a Secular religion in its own as Islam is not a Religion but a Deen which means a system.

If secular ideas mean the Freedom of all kinds then Islam is secular itself but the modern Secularism = La - deeniyat which rips Religion from the Mainstream and it is not what Islam teaches.

Sharia Law is the right solution to Pakistan - not a version of TTP - not a version of any fanatical Mullah but the True Essenes of Islamic system with democratic values.

I truly do not want Pakistan to become a Bikini Land but a place where everyone has freedoms of all kind while taking care of their Religious and Cultural values.

Regards: :pakistan:

A good viewpoint
 
Before you copy and paste atleast verify what you write, I dotn want to refute what you wrote but some of it is misinterpretaions, first of all by ibn surh you mean Abdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh, who converted to islam, its is doubtful if he is one of the srcibes, and he later accepetd islam again, and remained On track, he was forgivven upon the Intercession of uthman. Apostacy laws do not nessarily generate the death penalty , the laws are complex and detailed and certainly not how you percieve them, first of If that article is by you, it looks more like pasted from somewhere, The muslim abides by the law of the land he or she lives in. If in a islamic state , its by sharia, and if in a non muslim land its by the law of the land. it also shows that the author of the criticism is either ignorant in the field of Islamic Law or his goal is to deceive as many people as he can. In terms of Islamic Law, there are two categories of crimes. The ones named by God (such as murder, theft, fornication etc.) to which is applied the proper punishment "Hudood"(the singular is 'Hadd'). And the ones not named by God, their evaluation and their punishment (called ta'dhîr) are left for the judgment of the sovereign, or faqih. BUT in a Islamic State.

You are clearly unable to understand all this, its a point of view and very much credible in todays world. You might have a differing view, it would be best to state that rather than going into your inane rants.

And what has such a discussion to do with a military forum is beyond me , i wonder if moderators get monitored or not lol, Mr T has wondered of, and has imported all the Religion bashers here

Are you unable to read or query through learning what is being discussed in this specific section., we have different sections in this website, this is in a section where such is discussed. If you do not have anything worthwhile to add, it would be best not to write anything. You are going about threads by trying to counter an argument but not going into enough detail that warrants a response. You continue to state that I do not want to go into this or that. Well go into detail in any subject that you so wish.

Also who bashed religion here, people are having debates in a place where such things are promoted but you are going on with your fatwas as if everything is of offense to Islam.
 
You are clearly unable to understand all this, its a point of view and very much credible in todays world. You might have a differing view, it would be best to state that rather than going into your inane rants.



Are you unable to read or query through learning what is being discussed in this specific section., we have different sections in this website, this is in a section where such is discussed. If you do not have anything worthwhile to add, it would be best not to write anything. You are going about threads by trying to counter an argument but not going into enough detail that warrants a response. You continue to state that I do not want to go into this or that. Well go into detail in any subject that you so wish.

Also who bashed religion here, people are having debates in a place where such things are promoted but you are going on with your fatwas as if everything is of offense to Islam.

I just showed , how you didnt have a clue of what you was talking about, the fact that a muslim should, abide by the Law of the Land was enough for anyone of intelligence, "insane rants" what? where I said facts and a universal truth not my viewpoint, i never talked of a offence to islam nor issued a fatwa, i would say the same , about random unfounded accusations to any person, christian, jew, sikh or whatever.

---------- Post added at 11:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 PM ----------

Question: Can an Islamic State be Secular?
Answer: Certainly it can be, just like a pregnant women who could still be virgin.

LOL what a way to go, :tup:
 
I just showed , how you didnt have a clue of what you was talking about, the fact that a muslim should, abide by the Law of the Land was enough for anyone of intelligence, "insane rants" what? where I said facts and a universal truth not my viewpoint, i never talked of a offence to islam nor issued a fatwa, i would say the same , about random unfounded accusations to any person, christian, jew, sikh or whatever.

The point of this article is to show that an Islamic nation can indeed be secular as Islam allows all that can also be found in a true Secular country.

I cannot follow your posts, the way you write is difficult to understand. I also did not write Insane, I wrote Inane.
 

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