C for CPEC, Callousness and Controversy

[fjavaid]

Great post!! I wanted to add a few comments too:

1) CPEC is a 3 phase program (not sure why Pakistani media keeps calling it a "PROJECT"). A "Program" has many projects in it. So the CPEC program has different legs / segments and each of those segments has its own projects. For example, Energy is one leg / segment and has energy production related projects. Infrastructure is another leg / segment and has its own list of projects. Port and related things are under another leg, trade routes and business districts are another leg with associated projects!!!!

So this program is a network of projects. None of which are influenced by people, states, governments, but rather, how best the entire program would work, where the businesses vs. shipping hubs, vs. the ports need to be, for which type of business and trade activity (VERY complex strategy).

2) This notion that somehow "Punjab" is taking all the love and cash is frankly stupid. I've been studying this project since the blue prints of it were discussed between NS, the Chinese, WB and ADB two years ago.

3) Now let's move to today from the 3 phases I mentioned before. Today, we are in Phase I. And in that phase, there is a network of routes the Chinese will build (first network). They will build these based on their perceived trade activities, routing, and SAFETY.

In other words, where they feel the most safe right now, they'll work on it while the new Marine force is setup and other protection is spread to other "sensitive" areas. So its obvious that due to safety concerns, some areas won't see work starting till later.

That's not due to corruption, or one state taking others money, its simple common sense. The investor rules and its their money. Pakistanis should appreciate such a large investment that would change Pakistan into an Australia (literally and GDP wise) in a decade or so!!

4) Initially, there are 17 business / industry parks to be setup in phase I. And 5 will be in KPK, 4 in Baluchistan, 5 in Sindh and later, 4 in Punjab (so the KPK and Baluchistan start out with a bigger share). The road connectivity will be all over the country to China and eventually to Iran and the Central Russian states on the other side through KPK. The M series of highways will intersect with this route in every state and in multiple points in the long run. So its not like someone is being "ignored" as the stupid, illiterate, narrow minded politicians say it all the time!!

5) The MOST benefit would be received by the people of KPK and Baluchistan. Baluchistan obviously more than anyone else. Punjab will have its share of growth due to already setup industries. But Baluchistan and the KPK will take over Punjab's place on the growth map, as the program and associated infrastructure is expanded in phases.

But people of Baluchistan and one side of the KPK will start to see an industrial revolution by 2018-2019. Much more and faster than the rest of the country.

6) There is another M series highway being built between Lahore and Karachi. Punjab will continue to use Karachi as the main port as the distance is MUCH lesser that way, then it is to many parts of Punjab to Gawader. Plus, there are already established relationships between the two states for shipping and receiving stuff through Karachi already.

At the end, all states will become peaceful, modern and richer if this program goes through. It is stupid for any politician to question a foreign investment based program which, by using common sense tells you how valuable it is for Pakistan.

Once connected to Central Russian states, majority of the share of the trade and business activity will be done in and through the KPK and Baluchistan due to shorter distance to Punjab and Sindh and to the Central Russian states.

So why don't your politicians get it? I don't know as they are damaging their own country and denying pretty much the only serious opportunity that exists for Pakistan's growth, to this nation.

Its the people's responsibility at this point to ensure this program succeeds so that Pakistan can become like a UAE (actually Pakistan will go much higher than the UAE due to her population, size of the market and young labor, more like Australia)!!

@MastanKhan @Imran Khan @Mrc : We just brought this up in a different thread briefly. I wrote a longer / detailed version of the CPEC program. Read up and let me know your thoughts.

@mr42O @Leader @Jzaib @notorious_eagle @Ammara Chaudhry : I thought I'd add you guys on here so you can understand some more about the CPEC project as you casually criticize it without knowing what it really is!!

Chaa gia yar ... ...
Just look at Baluchistan ..... in just three years it has come a great distance not only in terms of security but economically n educationally .... almost all concerns raised by Baloch parties are accepted by Fed Govt ...cuz Mr mengal, achkzai were looking for solutions rather than jeopardizing the project
n then we have sindh ..well ...not really much to say about it ...
n KPK ...... govt which is hell bent upon raising false flag just ...to go through 2018 elections n making a fool out of its voters ....

Got it. Thanks!
Here's another question, why everything has to pass via Lahore? Like motorway, M1/2? Isn't it a valid argument? Pakistan is not just Lahore.
View attachment 286937

Can you please explain this map to me?

Map you hv attached is false ...incorrect ....made by anti project forces .....just go to planning n commission website for the correct map

 

[Viper0011.]

I do hope you will give some thought to the notion that why Indus highway is not being upgraded or preferred which is a shorter route for CPEC, rather the N5 is being preferred. I think the real design in doing that is very much visible.

This again is lack of a real understanding about the CPEC. CPEC isn't a name of the road (although from phase I, it is essentially building a road). The CPEC route would include dozens of new cities, industrial towns, municipalities and new communities all around it. No other highway system has the ROOM to build an international corridor with supporting communities and cities.

Where do they make new highways in the US or in the UK? ALWAYS around some major part of land, that's empty or hilly or has lower income. Why? New cities are formed, new economies and businesses emerge, the real estate values go up due to a trade route coming to otherwise barren land. New cities will have new homes, so the real estate will go up, new schools, new hotels, new factories, new distribution centers, gas stations, hospitals, airports, railway stations, new universities.

The CPEC Program will result in so much growth that Pakistan won't even need loans and care for external economies for a decade. The internal economic activity would be so dam*n much!!

How do you get all this new infrastructure built to grow the economy WITHOUT having proper room on other existing highway systems? So you build new, around areas you want to populate and make expensive in the future. And all highways will be ALL linked in a later phase!!

 

[Sipahi]

Transparency is the problem,

Audit done by any of big4 and their reports published on internet will help.

 

[Viper0011.]

Transparency is the problem,

Audit done by any of big4 and their reports published on internet will help.

Surprise Surprise!!!!! KPMG, a Chinese audit company and Transparency international are the auditors of certain parts of the program. Remember, this isn't Mushy's times when the US would deposit a few billion into a bank account. These are Chinese people and know Pakistan in and out. They pay DIRECTLY to the parties doing the work after inspection. You didn't do the work, you won't get paid. No delivery, No money !!

 

[Icarus]

Transparency is the problem,

Audit done by any of big4 and their reports published on internet will help.

Fully agreed, there needs to be greater public access to the status, funds and details about the project. A lot of speculation is fueled by building an air of secrecy around it.

 

[Sky_123]

Anti Pakistan elements like ANP, JUI-F, MQM & surprisingly even PTI are throwing hurdles are becoming obstacle in the way of CPEC & mega Pakistani projects.

What MQM said against CPEC, any source or just your hallucination?

 

[saiyan0321]

Yup. As always, Pakistanis being Pakistanis. Leg pulling at the best!! Allow me to break a "breaking news" to you. The Chinese didn't decide to invest $ 46 billion into Pakistan to feed and raise babies. They have CLEAR goals for their revenue return!! So, what that means is that they have NO care or concern to build a 500 bed trauma hospital or other stuff from above.

That should be the provincial government's responsibility to do so. But the provincial government in the KPK would just talk their way in and out of everything, but won't produce shiit.

"There were recommendations made" to the Chinese....before these recommendations were made, there were "threats" made to "shut down the highway" like IK style. The Chinese were very concerned about it. Do you think they have credibility of the KPK government? You can recommend anything, but they have a plan and that will be executed, period.

There is a reason why NS told them to run this with full authorization and without caring for Pakistani politics as everyone remembered Kala Bagh. So this time, the government of Pakistan is JUST a facilitator to provide land, security, materials and labor. Per the contract, it can't change anything that the Chinese want to do. End result, the CPEC will be built and KPK gets the biggest share of $$$$ after Baluchistan. So why not eat the freaking pie, instead of questioning the chef?

Don't beak it to me. Break it to those that don't understand investment.. The Chinese have not given N 46b and told them go nuts with it. Every project, every advancement, every addition and every route is done in the eye of the Chinese while the Chinese are kept in the loop about everything. That's why khattak didn't send these investment opportunities to federal for approval of their addition but to the Chinese for approval since they control all after all its their money.

Investment minds were understood on this forum when people were posting that the private investment of that Disney park should be diverted towards making hospitals or schools or should make one in balochistan or south Punjab. It was understood in that moment that normal people have no understanding about investments nor about the power of investor and his strength and vision in planning.

Anyhow it seems the demands are in and it could be that through all of this khattak is trying to make up for that lost opportunity when all CMs went to China apart from him and is getting these projects....

CPEC will happen but it's much better if all parties are taken together so I hope the Chinese approve a few of them and with the work being done on western route, it should keep them satisfied and should allow CPEC to move forward without any issues.


As long as diplomacy and flexibility and transparency reign supreme in these talks, we should do OK. After all the beauty of democratic politicians is diplomacy and flexibility in contrast to dictators and monarchs.

 

[Viper0011.]

Fully agreed, there needs to be greater public access to the status, funds and details about the project. A lot of speculation is fueled by building an air of secrecy around it.

Ever seen the J-31 and the J-20 thread on this very forum? People still take pictures from behind that dam*n tree we've been seeing for the past 10 years due to "secrecy". The secrecy isn't due to Pakistan. That's how the Chinese like to play it. Its their money and their implementation. Pakistan should just sit tight help out, provide labor and land and let them do the work. There isn't much you could do.

It kind of makes sense, they know they are putting the wrong foot inside Kashmir and India will get pissed off. They also know Pakistan has historically been pro-US and there is still a lot of influence from the US. So in order to avoid any issues by declassifying all details, they may be managing the risk by not having to deal with India or the US, even at a verbal level.

Don't you think the South China Sea by itself has become a real big issue for them? The US is now putting USN and USAF permanently in the Philippines. So why grab more attention? Audits happen to ensure the party spending the money didn't get cheated on. In this case, it is their money and governance and auditing over it. So let them manage the way they want to (not that Pakistan has a control over it anyway).

 

[TaimiKhan]

I was merely answering the question, I hope it will not be taken out of context.

As it has been pointed out by the government in the past as well, the progress on the western route is well ahead of schedule and not only will it be the first route to be completed (with the eastern route not expected to be operational in the next three years) but also the first route to be made operational.

CPEC western route to be completed next year - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
CPEC Western route to be built as dual carriageway
PM inaugurates CPEC’s western route in Zhob - The Express Tribune


"It may be added that the CPEC is a 15-year project between Pakistan and China spanning 2015-2030, while the Western route is among the Early Harvest Projects which have to be completed by 2018."- Second Article

The so called western route of Zhob as cited by you above, is being funded by ADB. I wonder how come a road funded by ADB is being put as part of CPEC.

This road which was inaugurated was already on the cards.

National Highway Network Development in Balochistan Project | Asian Development Bank

ADB okays $197m for Balochistan roads | The Banker Pakistan
Economic Affairs Division

Below is a document from 2011 regarding the said project.

http://downloads.nha.gov.pk/nhadocs/icb-n-50-lot-1-rd-wrk.pdf


These were just normal roads, but when faced with criticism about the western route, the PM and his team decided to make this part of the road from CPEC and did the drama of inauguration, even though its funded by ADB and in reality had nothing to do with CPEC.

 

[Icarus]

The so called western route of Zhob as cited by you above, is being funded by ADB. I wonder how come a road funded by ADB is being put as part of CPEC.

This road which was inaugurated was already on the cards.

National Highway Network Development in Balochistan Project | Asian Development Bank

ADB okays $197m for Balochistan roads | The Banker Pakistan
Economic Affairs Division

Below is a document from 2011 regarding the said project.

http://downloads.nha.gov.pk/nhadocs/icb-n-50-lot-1-rd-wrk.pdf


These were just normal roads, but when faced with criticism about the western route, the PM and his team decided to make this part of the road from CPEC and did the drama of inauguration, even though its funded by ADB and in reality had nothing to do with CPEC.

Sir that is incorrect, you are citing a document from 2011 at which time this was offered as a proposal but was not implemented, fast forward to 2015 where the same road has been upgraded and is being extended from a simple road restoration project to integration into a new national highway network which will comprise "Route-1" also known as the Western Route from Gwadar>Quetta>DI Khan> Peshawar>Noweshera.
These minutes from the NHA are from before the controversy even began, they should tell the real story:
http://nha.gov.pk/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/250ExB-Meeting-Agenda.pdf

The Route-1 has been given first priority so that the concerns of Balochistan and KPK may be met, and all genuine concerns must be met, it is their right to demand as much but it would be impossible to meet Khattak's demand of fast-tracking all stages of the project for KPK and giving them Tier-2/3 services in the early harvest program.

 

[Viper0011.]

The so called western route of Zhob as cited by you above, is being funded by ADB. I wonder how come a road funded by ADB is being put as part of CPEC.

These were just normal roads, but when faced with criticism about the western route, the PM and his team decided to make this part of the road from CPEC and did the drama of inauguration, even though its funded by ADB and in reality had nothing to do with CPEC.

You should read my previous post. You are continuing to post stuff without even understanding the CPEC and what it means or is designed to do. Take a deep breathe and go through my previous posts so you gain some knowledge as your posts clearly show the same emotional stuff we find in IK's followers. Constant questioning to be "right" then listen to the explanation that would answer your questions. CPEC has TWO references.

1: Commonly known as "the road" or the trade corridor".
2: CPEC as a an over arching PROGRAM (consists of many, many projects) which are designed to create an infrastructure footprint which would then allow different parts of the entire country to link together and optimize areas for trade, business, supply chain and business growth. So like the Metro Lahore, it doesn't have a direct relationship with CPEC (number 1 above, the road), but as the CPEC is a PROGRAM, it indirectly links to it in the future when Hair and others will open plants in Lahore as part of the CPEC. So these are connected to the CPEC program at a higher level, beyond just the road.

3: In the projects that are connected at a higher level under the CPEC program, there are many which will be financed by the WB and by the ADB. In fact, the US and the UK will be helping with some projects which will support future growth when phase I of CPEC goes live. Theoretically, these are supportive projects, but they'd still be listed under the broader CPEC program (not the road). Hope this helps!

 

[TaimiKhan]

You should read my previous post. You are continuing to post stuff without even understanding the CPEC and what it means or is designed to do. Take a deep breathe and go through my previous posts so you gain some knowledge as your posts clearly show the same emotional stuff we find in IK's followers. Constant questioning to be "right" then listen to the explanation that would answer your questions. CPEC has TWO references.

1: Commonly known as "the road" or the trade corridor".
2: CPEC as a an over arching PROGRAM (consists of many, many projects) which are designed to create an infrastructure footprint which would then allow different parts of the entire country to link together and optimize areas for trade, business, supply chain and business growth. So like the Metro Lahore, it doesn't have a direct relationship with CPEC (number 1 above, the road), but as the CPEC is a PROGRAM, it indirectly links to it in the future when Hair and others will open plants in Lahore as part of the CPEC. So these are connected to the CPEC program at a higher level, beyond just the road.

3: In the projects that are connected at a higher level under the CPEC program, there are many which will be financed by the WB and by the ADB. In fact, the US and the UK will be helping with some projects which will support future growth when phase I of CPEC goes live. Theoretically, these are supportive projects, but they'd still be listed under the broader CPEC program (not the road). Hope this helps!

I have read your posts and i have a very clear understanding of CPEC. Your posts talk about an ideal situation where all is well. And as per our past and present, all is not well.

And i can tell you with 100% confidence, if initially eastern route is made operational, all investment will go on that side and once that starts, nothing will go towards the area known as western route. I hope we never see that day, but if we did then hope we both are here on this forum and i will ask you that now tell who was right and who was wrong.

 

[VCheng]

It would be more rewarding though if this project can be completed with consensus of everybody on board but unfortunately any significant project has to be deferred for petty point scoring. I remember when the Motorway was being built, Benazir Bhutto lead a mass movement against its construction on the political slogan that the poor do not drive sports cars that they need a motorway, this project is for the rich. Just imagine what a stupid campaign that was and now try to realize that this campaign actually held up the motorway for several years before it was finally constructed and since then has become the jugular vein of Pakistan's transport system.

I am really amazed after having read your comments Icarus. I never thought you were from that group.

I do hope you will give some thought to the notion that why Indus highway is not being upgraded or preferred which is a shorter route for CPEC, rather the N5 is being preferred. I think the real design in doing that is very much visible.

Sirs:

Permit me to ask both of you a question. Regardless of which CPEC route is implemented first with a Western or Eastern alignment, just exactly how will this claimed billions of dollars in trade materialize? What will be made, exported, imported, or transported exactly? The skies will not start raining yuans or dollars simply because a few good roads and rails have been built, all by themselves.

 

[Leviza]

After Careful calculations and keeping in mind the importance of CPEC for all the people of Pakistani , the CPEC route is redefined.

 

[Viper0011.]

I have read your posts and i have a very clear understanding of CPEC. Your posts talk about an ideal situation where all is well. And as per our past and present, all is not well.

And i can tell you with 100% confidence, if initially eastern route is made operational, all investment will go on that side and once that starts, nothing will go towards the area known as western route. I hope we never see that day, but if we did then hope we both are here on this forum and i will ask you that now tell who was right and who was wrong.

No one said ALL is well. But no one said, holly shiit, the CPEC will ruin the world and will break Pakistan. Its senseless to think that a party in the government, who brought this entire thing to existence doesn't want to broaden their vote bank to other places (even if you took their selfish agenda to remain in power always). So its senseless to think they'll ignore a whole province or two, when you connect to China THROUGH those provinces.

Your 100% confidence is speculation and gossip to me as I know a LOT of actual detail that you have no clue about. So "gossip" can't be 100% or even 10%. I can assure you with 200% FACT based knowledge that the biggest beneficiary and wealth recipients of this program after phase I (around 2018) will be the KPK and Baluchistan.

Now you can remain negative, or learn to be optimistic. World lives on hope. Ever been to an African country? There are hundreds of millions of people who can't eat properly three times a day. But they life off of hope that their next generation will get educated and some will bring in investments and grow their economies, resulting in changing the life the way it exists in there.

You have $ 46 billion worth of INVESTMENT coming in (without having an economy to even qualify for such a large investment), now Pakistan Stock Exchange went live this week, there is estimated $ 120 BILLION worth of investments about to start flowing through it, between now and 2019. Plus Russian, America, and British investments ongoing. So your country went from Bankrupt (almost) in 2012 to having $ 180 BILLION (give or take some) worth of investments in just 5 years. Something that's not happened in the ENTIRE LIFE of Pakistan.

So with $ 170-180 billion worth of $$$$, you can be rest assured this money isn't going to people's bank accounts, its going to industry and Punjab and Sindh can't absorb more than $ 30-40 billion as they already have plenty of industry and land is rare in major hubs. Majority of this money is going to the KPK and Baluchistan. None of you brought in a billion to Pakistan, including the cry babies. So common sense tells me, the people who DID bring such massive amounts of investments in, deserve to complete their vision. You have a right to criticize them when they finish their term in 2018. But don't stop the work, don't derail the progress and don't deny your country from the ONLY and most significant opportunity it has got till her existence!! Have hope and faith, world lives off hope and you ain't no African nation!!