Anas Haqqani visits the Tomb of Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi with a veiled warning to India

[Paitoo]

Well, I somehow find the East Asian styles jarring to the eye though I like the styling of the Japanese gardens :

Something that combines a house and a garden would be ideal. Like this below.
Maybe in another birth

 

[Great Janjua]

Something that combines a house and a garden would be ideal. Like this below.
Maybe in another birth

View attachment 782902

Hope to breathe a caterpillar in the next life that way you can eat all that Japanese grass.

 

[Paitoo]

Hope to breathe a caterpillar in the next life that way you can eat all that Japanese grass.

I have no intention of eating Japanese grass, or even living in Japan either as a human or as a caterpillar. My discussion with jamahir was on architectural styles, to which he added a garden and I added my own wish of having a certain style of house.

 

[jamahir]

Something that combines a house and a garden would be ideal. Like this below.
Maybe in another birth

View attachment 782902

It's a beautiful sight indeed.

 

[Great Janjua]

I don't know why Indian members are seizing offence to factual episodes it's not like it will transpire again. All mr Haqqani did was give brief detail on Ghaznavis adventures in the subcontinent. However, something of substantial concern should be Indian infringements of human moralities, ethics and the code.

I have no intention of eating Japanese grass, or even living in Japan either as a human or as a caterpillar. My discussion with jamahir was on architectural styles, to which he added a garden and I added my own wish of having a certain style of house.

You wished for it in another life, so what better way to relish it than being a caterpillar.

 

[AgnosticIndian]

I don't see why a girl of 16 has to be called a child. It is against Nature irrespective of what modern Western laws say. Do people suddenly attain enlightenment when they come upon that magical age of 18 ? Who decided that age of 18 as one of adulthood ? If that age is so magical then everyone over the age of 18 should have contributed to making humanity a very evolved species, with no political and socio-economic tragedies and disharmony. But is that the case ? This voting age of 18 is stupid as is the British-derived political system of multiple parties, five-yearly elections and an unnecessarily complicated political system. I have had 15 or 16-year-old girls looking lasciviously with me.

man this is practically ephebephilia apologia. I know many cultures (including India and at some times Europe) had this and it's "natural" or whatever, but these things cannot be used to defend a practice, otherwise cultural reform would not be possible. there's a reason age of consent and marriage is 18. teenagers may feel a lot of things, both males andd females, but it doesn't mean they have the ability to consent to a relationship with a much older person. sure, they shouldn't be ashamed of themselves for their feelings, but it's not about what teenagers should do (responsible sex education at schools can inform them of that), it's about what responsible adults should and shouldn't do as a response to them. to establish relationships with a 15-16 year old teenager, who are often naive and with underdeveloped brains is exploitative. how many people who remember how they were at 15-16 will think they were capable of being in a relationship with a much more older and mature person?

and what about things like pregnancy? there's ample research and evidence that teen pregnancy is harmful to the mothers specially. it's plain unhealthy.

 

[Paitoo]

You wished for it in another life, so what better way to relish it than being a caterpillar.

I am sure there are other ways of enjoying grass, like sitting on it, playing sports, or just looking at it. Your need to poke fun at me is clearly arising out of my nationality and my statement on 'another life', which you take to be as a ridiculous Hindu superstition. Personally I find the entire concept of Heaven/Hell, Jannat/Jahannum, Swarg/Nark to be a superstition, but I don't go about telling people what they should do once they are there.

 

[Great Janjua]

I am sure there are other ways of enjoying grass, like sitting on it, playing sports, or just looking at it. Your need to poke fun at me is clearly arising out of my nationality and my statement on 'another life', which you take to be as a ridiculous Hindu superstition. Personally I find the entire concept of Heaven/Hell, Jannat/Jahannum, Swarg/Nark to be a superstition, but I don't go about telling people what they should do once they are there.

I was merely suggesting heck you can turn into a butterfly if you don't like to be a caterpillar. It all comes down to preference.

By the way, looking at grass is not enjoying it it's called grumbling tummy.

 

[jamahir]

man this is practically ephebephilia apologia.

I looked up what that term meant. Well, I have had women of all ages flirting with me both subtly and overtly.

it's about what responsible adults should and shouldn't do as a response to them. to establish relationships with a 15-16 year old teenager, who are often naive and with underdeveloped brains is exploitative.

Come on, the term "responsible adult" is not quite a sensible one. It has just become fashionable in the last 10 years or so. Just like "Pet parent" which is fashionable among dog lovers.

Secondly, quite a few people are sensible at 15-16 in a way that many 60+ people are not. These 60+ people have underdeveloped brains too and are still naive otherwise, like I posted earlier, humanity in its entirety would be a much evolved species with the gentleness, gracefulness and sensibility of a cat and no political and socio-economic disharmony like is there presently.

Thirdly, about being exploitative, we should really be focusing on say India being a very exploitative society, from within families to the IT / ITES industry. Do you know that about 20 years ago the Indian IT / ITES industry had an unwritten arrangement with the government to not allow worker unions within the industry ? Maybe you know how exploitative this industry is. For example, Infosys even had worker suicides, the workers driven to desperation by some "internal assessment" or the other. Another example, IBM-India in early 2014 removes hundreds of workers without giving them due notice or cut-off compensation. The workers came into the office one day and their managers just told them to leave their company-given laptops on their desks and leave the premises immediately. In the extremely Capitalist Indian socio-economic system we can imagine what effect such a company decision can have on the worker's life - loans to repay, marriage to be done, education to pay for, pilgrimage to be undertaken, healthcare fees to be paid etc. Did the government intervene for these IBM-India workers ? Funny this is, at least until 2015 IBM-USA - the parent company - had workers union but IBM-India did not. The Indian workers did not organize because of the apathetic attitude that comes with Indian education and modern middle class work life. My father was in the banking sector which exists from before 1947 and the banks in India have a common worker union but the modern Indian IT / ITES industry does not. In fact in an ITES company I worked for from 2013-14 I almost set up a workers union, but I foolishly resigned instead of carrying out the plan. If I had carried it out it would have been the first workers union in the IT / ITES industry here and I had plan of encouraging the workers in my company's other branch in the city and gradually the workers in other IT / ITES companies elsewhere in India to organize workers union. So those IBM-India workers and those 30,000 TCS workers who were removed the same way in late 2014, were the ones who were naive and their companies were being exploitative. This is the real exploitativeness.

Lastly, in the sublime sci-fi book series Dune which is set thousands of years from now and in its TV adaptation of year 2000 the Duke Leto, father of Paul Muad'dib who becomes the Mahdi and Paul's mother being the bound concubine Lady Jessica, Leto brings Jessica when she is 16 and he older.

how many people who remember how they were at 15-16 will think they were capable of being in a relationship with a much more older and mature person?

What about relationships between older, mature women and younger men ? Or indeed between 25+ women and 50+ men ? For example four years ago there was a fine Hindi serial called Dil Sambhal Jaa Zara based on this theme :

and what about things like pregnancy? there's ample research and evidence that teen pregnancy is harmful to the mothers specially. it's plain unhealthy.

That "research and evidence" is from those who formed the shrill #MeToo crowd. I am sure a lot of 18+ "adult" women too die in lots during pregnancies. In fact the younger sister of an old friend of mine died this way and I am sure she was 18+.

 

[AgnosticIndian]

That "research and evidence" is from those who formed the shrill #MeToo crowd. I am sure a lot of 18+ "adult" women too die in lots during pregnancies. In fact the younger sister of an old friend of mine died this way and I am sure she was 18+.

all else aside, I certainly didn't expect a self-proclaimed Communist to call MeToo movement against harassment "shrill" and disregard scientific evidence like that. but no, the research isn't that new and isn't from new feminists. it's both government and privately funded research from all over the world since a long time. Indian government initiative against teen pregnancy, and other initiatives all over the world wasn't because of shrill feminism, but evidence based medical reasons. there was a recent paper that said teen pregnancies are safer, but that went against lots of better quality research earlier and was quickly debunked by other researchers for using very bad methodology.
and sure, I'm against capitalist exploitation too, and we could have replaced it with better systems if we had any. currently we're trying our best to increase wages and have better conditions. it's a slow process, just like the campaign against teen pregnancy and child marriage was. we're working on all fronts.

and yes, 15-16 year olds are underdeveloped in ways a 25 year old isn't. to claim otherwise is disingenuous.

Lastly, in the sublime sci-fi book series Dune which is set thousands of years from now and in its TV adaptation of year 2000 the Duke Leto, father of Paul Muad'dib who becomes the Mahdi and Paul's mother being the bound concubine Lady Jessica, Leto brings Jessica when she is 16 and he older.

and? are you saying its okay because it's in a sci-fi book? there are bound concubines in the same sentence, are you also going to argue in favour of that?

 

[jamahir]

all else aside, I certainly didn't expect a self-proclaimed Communist to call MeToo movement against harassment "shrill"

Then my question would be, should I call out all those girls / women who flirted with me as harassers and myself join the MeToo movement ? Would that be a done thing ? For example, one evening I must have been looking particularly attractive ( heh heh ) and was going to a second-hand bookshop. I went to the autorickshaw stand / bus stand and as I boarded a rickshaw a woman who was waiting for a bus almost came into the rickshaw and tensely asked me if I would take the rickshaw towards her house. I told her I decline. And then once at the bookshop a girl ( a pretty one ) began flirting with me and we spoke until the bookshop closed for the day. Regrettably I neither took her number nor took her to a nearby tea place. But should I now declare myself outraged and put out statements of MeToo harassments against these two women ?

but no, the research isn't that new and isn't from new feminists. it's both government and privately funded research from all over the world since a long time. Indian government initiative against teen pregnancy, and other initiatives all over the world wasn't because of shrill feminism, but evidence based medical reasons. there was a recent paper that said teen pregnancies are safer, but that went against lots of better quality research earlier and was quickly debunked by other researchers for using very bad methodology.

Why are we talking about pregnancy ?

and sure, I'm against capitalist exploitation too, and we could have replaced it with better systems if we had any. currently we're trying our best to increase wages and have better conditions. it's a slow process

"Increase wages" : Well, in this thread I have proposed the outline of a new economic system which abolishes the traditional money system, keeps leftist socio-economic system and through an evolved money system realizes the Communist desire of abolishing economic classes ( rich, middle, poor ). The money system here exists because ATM technology is not existent that can make everything free despite current availability of advances like 3D Printing and Vertical Farming.

And in this thread I describe how technically the Libyan Jamahiriya political system worked. This system which was people's rule - direct democracy, real democracy - can really be called realization of the Communist desire of "Withering away of the State". Real democracy. The system was adapted for Venezuela by Hugo Chavez.

So by this way of enabling a Communist socio-economic system and a Communist political system, Capitalist exploitation can be ended in an instant. The only requirement is for people to accept the sensibility of this and make themselves part of this. Nature will not reject the system, some people will.

and yes, 15-16 year olds are underdeveloped in ways a 25 year old isn't. to claim otherwise is disingenuous.

Come on, you are just being stubborn despite my very simple questions I asked in the very first post you quoted and my subsequent posts about this.

Lastly, in the sublime sci-fi book series Dune began in 1965 and written by the American Frank Herbert - perhaps one of the best books written by humanity - and which is set thousands of years from now and in its TV adaptation of year 2000 the Duke Leto, father of Paul Muad'dib who becomes the Mahdi and Paul's mother being the bound concubine Lady Jessica, Leto brings Jessica when she is 16 and he older.

BTW the first book, Dune, is being released as a new film in India on the 15th of this month. From the trailer the film doesn't seem as magnificent as the book or even the 2000 TV adaptation but you should watch it.

 

[AgnosticIndian]

I went to the autorickshaw stand / bus stand and as I boarded a rickshaw a woman who was waiting for a bus almost came into the rickshaw and tensely asked me if I would take the rickshaw towards her house. I told her I decline

you took a girl requesting a minor inconvenience as flirting? now I'm not sure you're describing the book shop incident correctly. tharki behaviour.
but anyway, MeToo was about systematic harassment by men in power, not random men asking for small favours being interpreted as flirting by over imaginative people. and why are you bringing up all this anyway: are you a minor? if you're trying to point out that teenagers have crushes on older people: I never disputed that.

we're talking about pregnancy because it's not just about relationship: you're defending marriages that often result in pregnancies by choice of men.

and why are you bringing up books? if it's a recommendation then thank you, I've it in mind since I saw a short review. I'll read it if I get some time. what's the point abou the girl being 16? surely you're not using it to imply anything about the real world where we don't live under oppressive governments and societies with brutal slave labour and bonded concubines.

 

[jamahir]

if it's a recommendation then thank you, I've it in mind since I saw a short review. I'll read it if I get some time.

what's the point abou the girl being 16? surely you're not using it to imply anything about the real world where we don't live under oppressive governments and societies with brutal slave labour and bonded concubines.

1. Dune is a series that has delicateness, empathy, sophistication and gracefulness. Although Jessica is a concubine - meaning not married to Leto and being the only concubine - she is the mother of Leto's only child. Leto did not marry Jessica because of a political possibility of marriage alliance with another royal house. But Leto dearly loves Jessica. Jessica is from the Bene Gesserit sisterhood and her becoming Leto's concubine was also a political arrangement for the sisterhood's own breeding program ( you have to read the books ) but Leto is in deep love with Jessica. Any political marriage alliance of Leto would have resulted in that wife being just peripheral in the triangular relationship. And it is Leto and Jessica's son Paul who is the crown prince and later becomes the Mahdi.

2. We still live under oppressive governments and societies with brutal slave labor.

3. I find it contradictory and pseudo moralistic that modern Anglo-Saxon Western governments will jail any man who has been flirted with by a 16-year-old girl but these governments will without a night's sleep invade, regime-change or sabotage other countries, usually progressive, and the acts resulting in mass destruction and deaths numbering in hundreds of thousands or even millions and then usually installing there or trying to install regressive, criminal and oppressive people as rulers. For example the Americans used depleted uranium shells and bullets in their two invasions of Iraq which has resulted in people getting cancers. Look at these pictures of Iraqi children born deformed and diseased because of such radioactive cancers. No night's sleep lost by the Bushes and the Bliars on this yet their governments will become outraged by a pre-18 girl flirting with a 18+ man. Pseudo morality. Contradictoryness. BTW as against the New Feminists there are some states in USA which allow for marriages for girls aged 15, 16 and 17. But I am not stuck on this. I just go with the flow. What is natural. Organic. Whether the woman is 16 or 50.

you took a girl requesting a minor inconvenience as flirting?

1. That girl must have been 30+. And that "request" was delivered in a tense, sexual way. Easily recognizable. The tone, the expression and the action. Even the rickshaw driver understood and asked me in an undertone where to go.

2. Why should she specially ask me when she can take a bus for about five or so rupees or another rickshaw ? That too in that public place.

There are other stories.

 

[AgnosticIndian]

There are other stories.

forget discussion then, send the stories with a selfie of your handsome instead

We still live under oppressive governments and societies with brutal slave labor.

not as bad as Dune I'm assuming, and we still protest. we shouldn't we aiming for results given by machinations in sci-fi novels, right? now I fear the things you'll advocate after reading Stephen King's IT and Brave New World. they both have scenes of something that some people will advocate as "natural".

Pseudo morality. Contradictoryness

just because some people of a country done something immoral doesn't mean anything anyone there advocates is automatically wrong. in fact, you'll probably find more supporters for your side with the same people who support Bush. the same people who oppose sexual exploitation of young girls and women have also been historically at the forefront against right wing regimes. you're one of the first Communists who I've seen saying this stuff. Progressives and Communists have been at the forefront of age of consent and age of marriage reform, against the wishes of the Orthodoxy of both Hindus and Muslims.

the naturalness argument doesn't hold up. it cannot be said that just because something is older it's natural. otherwise rule of law and human rights are very unnatural concepts, the natural thing is to beat each other up and solve matters by bludgeoning the other tribe. I can as easily argue that it's more natural and virtuous to prevent early marriages and sexual exploitation. everyone from Benjamin Franklin to Raja Ram Mohan Roy has given arguments against what you're arguing for.

 

[Bossman]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1445620462675914754

Stupid Indians. They don’t really get it. The pictures posted above is exactly the reason that Somnath should be Invaded for the 18th time.