Ah memories! :D

[Abu Zolfiqar]

i've noticed something about indians

behind closed doors --they fight and pull eachother's hair.....they put eachother down; they even put their country down sometimes


but when Pakistanis are in the room, they act united and try to put on a tough posture --and they will never discuss things like poverty and social problems in their country; but happily point out problems in Pakistan


i think some indians are very insecure people......certain complexes fuel this phenomenon

 

[Developereo]

i've noticed something about indians

behind closed doors --they fight and pull eachother's hair.....they put eachother down; they even put their country down sometimes


but when Pakistanis are in the room, they act united and try to put on a tough posture --and they will never discuss things like poverty and social problems in their country; but happily point out problems in Pakistan


i think some indians are very insecure people......certain complexes fuel this phenomenon

Well, we all do that to some extent. Indians, Americans, Pakistanis, we all debate problems in our society and become wary when foreigners come in just to score points. Foreigners are welcome to join the debate -- and many Indians do so in a civilized manner -- but some just want to troll or gloat.

In fact, people like Joe Shearer are always a joy to read. Nohbody can doubt his patriotism to India, and we disgree strongly at times, but he is civilzed.

 

[gubbi]

i've noticed something about indians

behind closed doors --they fight and pull eachother's hair.....they put eachother down; they even put their country down sometimes

True That. Thats what open discussion is all about in a vibrant democracy such as ours.

but when Pakistanis are in the room, they act united and try to put on a tough posture --and they will never discuss things like poverty and social problems in their country; but happily point out problems in Pakistan

There could be nothing more further from truth than this above inane comment. Either you are blind, or are pandering to the 'fanboi' galleries. If you can, then do check up on how we, Indians, readily accept the social problems plaguing our society. However, when your compatriots use that very occasion to throw muck and resort to name calling, it is but natural for some of us to bluntly point out that you fellows are not exactly saints.

i think some indians are very insecure people......certain complexes fuel this phenomenon

Lol. Look who's talking about insecurity and 'complexes'!! Physical appearances do not define a nation - theres much more to it. Bu then what would YOU know, eh?

 

[VCheng]

There is a further difference between what I say and you say. I want freedom, in its totality. The basic tenet of freedom is as long as my freedom does not impact your freedom, I'm free to do as I please.

Hence my positions have always been in support for cause of equality of Pakistanis - wrt to other religions like Ahmedis, Christians, Hindus and minor sects. These you almost always agree with.

Of course. I have no problem agreeing with correct positions, including those for freedom.

But when it comes to being free from subservience of America you're like OMG, blasphemy!!

Absolutely not. Let me explain.

What I argue for is that before getting freedom from subservience, not just from USA, but even UK and Saudi Arabia, there is much that needs to be done. That is the only difference between your stance and mine. Your solution is far too abrupt and thus fraught with dangers that are avoided by my gradual approach. Think about it.

What you're arguing for is just simply replacing either the elite or the Mullah for the Amreekan mai-baap.

Absolutely not. I want the foundations laid for freedom from the elite, the mullahs and foreign powers.

IK's Dharnas are not the tor phor program you get from Mullah hooligans. Tameez-daar revolutions take their time. Has Occupy Wall Street ended Capitalism? People with guts are standing all over against tyranny, aap ho ke keh rahay ho, Nahi nahi nahi beta, gabbar ajayega, darro gabbar se.

Again, wrong. What I am saying is NOT that Gabar sey Daro, what I am saying is that Jaise bhi ho, SEEKHO. Learn. Practice. Work. You know, the non-glamorous stuff that does not make it news bites.

Will you oppose any military action on Pakistani soil by any foreign force like the United States, come what may?

ABSOLUTELY YES.

What is more, I am committed to doing everything possible to prevent that from happening in the first place.

Ek kaam karo, court pe drone hamla karwa doh.

There is no need for that sarcasm, or drone attacks on courts, and you know it.

You're so American about it. Why didn't this happen, bomb them. Why didn't you do this, bomb them. Let us fight our issues. It's like saying American universities trade in drugs, lets send drones there eventually the drug dealer would die in the process.

I am not "american" about it. I am merely thinking logically and dispassionately.

Excuse me fight back? They are not coming 14000 km to the US to fight with them and fight till when? Because you kill one guy his 10 kids are growing up with pent up anger ready to die in the cause. Your only solution is massive genocide of FATA, if you think you can fight your way out of this. Again so American.

There will be NO mass genocide in FATA or anywhere else. There is no need for it. The pent up anger that you describe is real and entirely avoidable and unnecessary, I agree.

Another American trait, just replace one vice for another and look away till it boils up into something else and what America is doing is not that actually, its going a step further. Its entangling FATA in a war with the rest of the Pakistan so your statement is correct but the execution is more like "As long as they keep killing Pakistanis and not us Americans why bother with a genocide"?

Your conclusion is incorrect. Even if the US were not carrying out drone attacks, there is enough right wing extremism running unbridled that Paksitan faces an internal threat from. Exhibit A: Laal Masjid.

Isn't this entire thread all about your character traits (and any others) and as we see them? You stating Pakistan has betrayed you by not living up to your standards? Your standards are a betrayal of Pakistan. This isn't name-calling. I have sufficient self-restraint to not go there.

Pakistan has let many down, not just me, and it is a self-evident truth, like it or not when I say it. It is just that I have not abandoned Pakistan like others have, and this thread is testament to that fact. Ever wonder why I am here to begin with? What need do I have to take all this punishment in public? To explain myself over and over again? Am I such a glutton for punishment, or may be, just may be, I am trying to do the right thing for Pakistan as I see it?

The first thing the US did was it stood up to the British and kicked em out. When it asserted that sort of independence and freedom working hard was within the realm of possibilities.

Do you mean to say that working hard becomes possible only after kicking the foreign power out? What prevents hard work NOW?

Today your US has imposed its henchman as our president and I think the military chief is their guy too. For hard towards what? They are all working hard towards American goals already.

Who elected Zardari? Not the US. Who promoted Kayani to COAS? Not the US.

And if you believe they both are working for US interests, whose fault is that? Mine?

Consistently anti-Pakistan. Oh and "as opposed to" type arguments? You've just outlined that I'd resort to treachery when this happens. You think its okay that there is a point where treachery becomes justified - or worse these clearly treasonous acts are being sold to us as patriotic acts. Therein lies your disconnect with the rest of Pakistan.

Consistently logical and truthful statements, not anti-Pakistan.

If there is a disconnect, it is not between me and Pakistan, it is increasingly between Pakistan and the REST OF THE WORLD. Take a good look around and tell me.

This is the part that I will never forgive.

There is a thread running about 'favorite posters' -- one of those perennial BFF threads -- and I don't post in those threads because it's hard for me to come up with a top 5. But I will tell you what I don't like. I don't like Pakistani posters who don't stand up for Pakistan when the anti-Pakistan troll brigade rolls into town. Instead, they pass snide, patronizing remarks about how Pakistanis are deluding themselves or some such. It garners many thanks and friendships from the troll brigade, but it does nothing to address the issue. Moreover, it insults the intelligence of the Pakistanis on this board, as if the rest of us just fell off the turnip truck yesterday.

If you look at Indians or Israelis, they may have their differences, but they close ranks when India or Israel gets attacked here.

There is no justification for killing civilians in Pakistan through drones. Even the alleged criminals need to be brought to trial. All these people wafting glorious about 'how the US works' know full well that, if a single drone attack ever occured on US soil, the entire drone fleet would be grounded by American courts. American law provides for presumption of innocence and due process for its citizens. Pakistanis deserve no less.

Even the ones in FATA.

What is unforgivable is not truthful criticism where it is due. What is truly unforgivable is blindly following the same beaten path that leads Pakistan ever deeper into the abyss. It is your ilk that are part of the guilty party, not people like me.

 

[Developereo]

The last post ended up qualifying something you mentioned never needs a qualified answer....

I don't want to detail the thread, but Kargil was not a 'military intervention by a foreign entity'. Since we consider Kargil to be an illegally occupied piece of our land, it was an operation to liberate it from a 'foreign entity'.

Yes, I know Indians have the opposite view, but that's a different debate.

 

[VCheng]

I don't want to detail the thread, but Kargil was not a 'military intervention by a foreign entity'. Since we consider Kargil to be an illegally occupied piece of our land, it was an operation to liberate it from a 'foreign entity'.

Yes, I know Indians have the opposite view, but that's a different debate.

I will be grateful if we can leave aside that train of thought for another thread. AM and I have already clarified that multiple times.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Well, we all do that to some extent. Indians, Americans, Pakistanis, we all debate problems in our society and become wary when foreigners come in just to score points. Foreigners are welcome to join the debate -- and many Indians do so in a civilized manner -- but some just want to troll or gloat.

In fact, people like Joe Shearer are always a joy to read. Nohbody can doubt his patriotism to India, and we disgree strongly at times, but he is civilzed.

han that's true....that's why i was a bit careful with my words. Generally it isn't my policy to generalize.

 

[Developereo]

What is unforgivable is not truthful criticism where it is due. What is truly unforgivable is blindly following the same beaten path that leads Pakistan ever deeper into the abyss. It is your ilk that are part of the guilty party, not people like me.

Try reading that post again. My comment was about forum conduct, not the validity of criticisms.

In any case, it was a general comment, not aimed at you personally. As AM said, this discussion has moved beyond personalities into a general debate about the forum.

Nobody's shying away from citicism. As stated, most Pakistanis on this forum acknowledge the problems. Many of us try to find solutions instead of smugly folding our hands and patronizingly dismissing anyone who disagrees as being part of the "blind" unwashed masses.

This is an international forum and a showpiece of Pakistani society, warts and all. We debate our internal problems in the open and welcome constructive discussion from all but, when trolls invade, there is no shame in dispatching them. That is also part of our duty as Pakistanis on this forum. I do not respect Pakistanis who do not do their share of this dispatching when rabidly anti-Pakistan, anti-Muslim trolls invade a discussion.

 

[karan.1970]

I will be grateful if we can leave aside that train of thought for another thread. AM and I have already clarified that multiple times.

Done.. The debate on this thread is too awesome and I wouldnt want any part in that getting derailed..

 

[JonAsad]

Can I ask?-

Which freaking Ah memories???-

All of you stay on topic and discuss those Ah memories- nothing else or else i will report the mods to admins and admins to supermods -





j/k carry on -

 

[Zabaniyah]

Strangely, I have often been called a Razakar and at the same time being called a pro-Indian lapdog

Well, I do like VCheng's posts and sense of humor

 

[Trucker]

vcheng uncle jindabaad

 

[MastanKhan]

I will not get into what the TT Chair and Vice-Chair have done or not done - my point is simply that we entrusted the TT members, all of them, to come up with rules/guidelines and processes, and they did.

Now the rules/guidelines/processes they themselves came up with establish how the TT Chair and Vice Chair were created, and how people get elected to them and for how long. No one forced that on the TT members, and no one is stopping the TT from arriving at a majority consensus and amending the rules/guidelines/processes and changing the leadership.

The fact of the matter is that there was simple no support for the changes MK was/is talking about, or if there was, MK was unable to unify that support and make it 'count' so to speak. So why blame one individual for that?

This is akin to supporting a process, and then dissing the very same process when it does not deliver the results you want or expected. Even that is fine (not liking the process after supporting it) but now work within the rules to change the process or change the outcomes of the process.

Hi,

I have seen some lame excuses in my life of 50 plus years---but some of them given here do surprise me as well----.

Here is the bottomline-----In the last 6 years and before that---whatever I wrote and suggested about the issue pretty much fell in the format that I had talked about----and most of the superstar TT lead and admins were proven wrong---specially after the Osama issue.

It is like hitting your head against the wall to expect changes in operation----I have realized and learnt that this board is just run like pakistan is---as brilliantr as Agnostic Muslim or Asim Aquil are---they are still pakistani managers----.

The public cries---please fire Butt---he is destroying cricket---answer let him serve his time---same with pia--railway and every other dept -----. I am shocke d at the mediocrity of these guys----.

I understand that you guys don't like MY ARROGANCE AND ARROGANT BEHAVIOUR----but please learn to look beyond---that is what I have been trying to teach you for the last 6 years----learn to look beyond your personal griefs---learn to accept different approach and outlook that you have been used to----.

You need to accept that what you have been doing for the last so many years and also your elders, was wrong----and unless you don't make the change and listen to learn---you will keep slipping backwards. You can blame all the americans and the british and everybody else----but untill and unless you don't blame yourself and confront yourself about your lies that you people tell yourself----there is no salvation.

You want to hide behind your constitution like it is the word of GOD----and Moses wrote it---but no it is your personal ego that I have hurt-----.

I never paint a rosy picture for you guys---I try to speak clear about issues as much as I can---I know you people don't like it alots of times---. It hurts you and it is painful for you to accept it---and then you turned around and hurt me where it hurts me the most----you stuck a knife in my heart and you twist it and tell me the it is the constitution----.

You want to live with the lies that your elders have told you---you live with the lies that your air force has told you---you live with the lies that your generals have told you---you treat them like gods that can never mislead you or lie to you----well I didn't----the may scenario showed you the real picture---.

I keep telling you people---stop being thick headed----listen and learn to understand the adversary in a different manner---. Learn to fight your opponent differently---like your enemy is doing to you---like in the COLD START DOCTRINE----that I have explained in one of my articles---.

The Cold Start is happening in front of you---but as it is not happening the way you perceived it on a millitary level----so you canot understand its existence----. Don't blame me if if I see it differently----"if I can see a different picture---must I be faulted for that"---what if someone else can see through the walls---must that person be castigated----.

The only time you people will be on the right path of success is when you people will learn to look at things differently----.



I have thrown the gauntlet---my comments are here---the TT chairperson and VC has not had a single complete article about current issues of their own in the last one year. For that---they must resign. These have been terrible times for pakistan---terrible terrible times----and the TT chairman did not have any conscience left in him to write something of his own---didnbot have the courage to lead the forum in these trying times.

And you guys---you the admins and mods want to protect him---where is the shame in this case----.

The TT is a creation of the admins and mods----.

Please read my signature---it is for all pakistanis---.

When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.” – Mark Twain

 

[divya]

Ahhh my memory lane starts with "You are a male" melodrama and then fued with Jana and multiple bans. But then thanks equally to Pakistani and Indian members to have said something about women which united us both and we actually shared some "cant be shared" jokes in PM : Then got good frens here like Zaki and members like Joe sir who are very knowledgeable and scare me most.

and some really good time with people like "guy with the gun" abu bhai. though had heated debate but never crossed limits of decency.

and who can forget sparky sir...

 

[VCheng]

Try reading that post again. My comment was about forum conduct, not the validity of criticisms.

In any case, it was a general comment, not aimed at you personally. As AM said, this discussion has moved beyond personalities into a general debate about the forum.

Nobody's shying away from citicism. As stated, most Pakistanis on this forum acknowledge the problems. Many of us try to find solutions instead of smugly folding our hands and patronizingly dismissing anyone who disagrees as being part of the "blind" unwashed masses.

This is an international forum and a showpiece of Pakistani society, warts and all. We debate our internal problems in the open and welcome constructive discussion from all but, when trolls invade, there is no shame in dispatching them. That is also part of our duty as Pakistanis on this forum. I do not respect Pakistanis who do not do their share of this dispatching when rabidly anti-Pakistan, anti-Muslim trolls invade a discussion.

Fair enough.

Pakistan is under attack, for without and within, no doubt. And not all of the attacks are unjustified.

This forum has a huge potential in helping Pakistan win this fight, but it will take a concerted effort to realize this potential. It will take more than the Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V crowd. It will take more than the flag waving crowd, local and expats. It will take more than the ideological zealots or the trolls or the faujis, or even those likely no more than three degrees removed from the problem creators themselves.

Let me give you two local examples:

1. SAATHI of Rochester, NY

The beneficiaries are mostly Pakistani women, those helping are not.

2. Muzzammil Hassan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This guy had a great idea and look at how he ended up.

Why do I quote them? Because on a certain level, PDF is on a similar path.

We may be open in our discussion, warts and all, but the whole effort needs to be more intelligent and better directed and accurately focused.

My motivation is this, no more and no less. My words may be harsh and unpopular; my philosophy not fully understood; my person vulnerable to vicious attacks. But my persistence should tell you all something.