After Gorshkov, Russia demands more money again

[Khalsa]

After Gorshkov, Russia demands more money again



India's search for an advanced jet trainer (AJT) took an agonising two decades before the Hawk was finally purchased from UK major, BAE Systems. But the wait for an intermediate jet trainer (IJT) — which will replace the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) venerable Kiran trainer — could be half that time. Designed and built in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the Bangalore-headquartered Indian defence PSU, the sleek HJT-36 Sitara has used a combination of indigenous design and international purchases to vault from the drawing board to the runway at a speed unmatched in contemporary aircraft development. On Saturday, the Sitara IJT passed an important milestone. The newly-developed Russian AL-55I engine — which was specially designed by Russian engine maker, NPO Saturn, to power the Sitara — was successfully tested in a ground run at HAL.

But the jubilation has a bitter edge. Even as the Bangalore complex celebrates, it is dealing with a Russian demand for more money. NPO Saturn claims that it has spent more time and money on developing the AL-55I engine than it had bargained for, and that manufacturing technology will only be transferred to India if HAL pays NPO Saturn an extra $64 million, over and above the contracted amount. The Russian company had beaten out French engine maker Snecma in 2005, in the $350-million contract to design the AL-55I engine and transfer technology to build it in India.

Top Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources are furious; they allege Russia is repeating what it did with the Gorshkov aircraft carrier. HAL's design chief is in Moscow trying — so far unsuccessfully to persuade NPO Saturn to lower its demands.

Russia's ambassador to New Delhi, Vyacheslav Trubnikov acknowledges, that NPO Saturn has asked for more money, but he told Business Standard that he expects an amicable resolution of this issue. Trubnikov said, "Both sides are engaged in the fixing of the price. I don't think the question is extraordinary. Discussions are in progress on the question of how many engines India will be allowed to manufacture."

Sources in HAL, however, point out that all these issues had been settled as a part of the original contract between HAL and NPO Saturn. Adding to India's frustration is the role of Russia's state-owned arms agency, Rosoboronexport, which has been telling HAL that it should pay up quietly.

As with the Gorshkov aircraft carrier, for which Russia cited cost overruns to double the contracted price to $1.2 billion, India has little choice but to pay up. MoD sources point out that even with the extra $64 million added on, NPO Saturn's price will be less than what Snecma quoted. They also grudgingly accept that Russia is the only major arms manufacturer that actually transfers all the technology to India that is demanded in a contract. But the biggest reason for paying up quietly is that the IJT programme, which has already waited three years for this engine, will face a delay of several more years if it launches an international search for another engine.

While waiting for the AL-55I engine to be developed, India has flown the IJT with an interim engine, the French Larzac power plant, which was never powerful enough for the Sitara. The AL-55I generates 20 per cent more power than the Larzac and also consumes appreciably less fuel per flying hour.


After Gorshkov, Russia demands more money again .

 

[ejaz007]

Russians have found an easy way of making money. Bid on lower price then after getting the contract increase the price. Indians will oblige.

 

[nitesh]

Russians have found an easy way of making money. Bid on lower price then after getting the contract increase the price. Indians will oblige.

Very much correct. Now India has to find a way out of it. And there is only one way indigenous production. COme what may, introduce the equipment produced indigenously, may be of inferior quality but support it. Or else, there is no way out of this trap.

 

[Khalsa]

Very much correct. Now India has to find a way out of it. And there is only one way indigenous production. COme what may, introduce the equipment produced indigenously, may be of inferior quality but support it. Or else, there is no way out of this trap.

I cant agree more, India has develop its defence industry more and by "any means", even if it has steal technology. Chinese have done it and they are extremely good at reverse engineering. We have to stop waising our money Russian junk.

 

[Bushroda]

Very much correct. Now India has to find a way out of it. And there is only one way indigenous production. COme what may, introduce the equipment produced indigenously, may be of inferior quality but support it. Or else, there is no way out of this trap.

Thats a lesson IA & IAF need to learn. All this while they've been spoiled with the Russian, French made toys. Its time they give some attention to home made products.

 

[su-47]

Very much correct. Now India has to find a way out of it. And there is only one way indigenous production. COme what may, introduce the equipment produced indigenously, may be of inferior quality but support it. Or else, there is no way out of this trap.

we cant compromise our defence nitesh. we cant switch to indegenous products overnight. it has to be a gradual process. we'll probably have to engage in more JVs to increase our technology base.

the MoD has to get it into their heads that this is not cold war, and this is not the soviet union we are dealing with. the russians have become as scrupulous as their infamous mafia when it comes to business deals now. they keep hiking costs, knowing that india wont back down now.

if we take the Mig-35 for MRCA, this is what will happen. first we'll think we are getting a great fighter cheaply, and soon we'll end up paying more per piece than for a eurofighter. and then the russians wont even supply spares properly since they are not inducting the fighter into their airforce, and we'll have multibillion dollar scrap ******* in our airfields.

we have to make it crystal clear to the russians that gone are the days when we HAD to buy fom them. we have other potential suppliers now.

 

[nitesh]

we cant compromise our defence nitesh. we cant switch to indegenous products overnight. it has to be a gradual process. we'll probably have to engage in more JVs to increase our technology base.

the MoD has to get it into their heads that this is not cold war, and this is not the soviet union we are dealing with. the russians have become as scrupulous as their infamous mafia when it comes to business deals now. they keep hiking costs, knowing that india wont back down now.

if we take the Mig-35 for MRCA, this is what will happen. first we'll think we are getting a great fighter cheaply, and soon we'll end up paying more per piece than for a eurofighter. and then the russians wont even supply spares properly since they are not inducting the fighter into their airforce, and we'll have multibillion dollar scrap ******* in our airfields.

we have to make it crystal clear to the russians that gone are the days when we HAD to buy fom them. we have other potential suppliers now.

your point is well taken SU but see how the services are handling the indigenous equipment. IA and IAF should take a leaf out of In about how to build the indigenous capability.

Regarding MiG35 i agree with you to an extent.

 

[roadrunner]

I hate to break it to you guys. But you got noone else that would supply you with technology as much as the Russians. I'd take it in your position, even if they are taking you for a ride. Your Space program would have collapsed years ago if the Russians didn't help you out with the multistage part of the SLV.

 

[Contrarian]

I hate to break it to you guys. But you got noone else that would supply you with technology as much as the Russians. I'd take it in your position, even if they are taking you for a ride. Your Space program would have collapsed years ago if the Russians didn't help you out with the multistage part of the SLV.

Again, referring to the past to understand the present is a folly. At that time, only Russia supplied us advanced weaponry. Now every nation worth its salt with a technological base is offering its equipment along with ToT of all but the most of the sensitive tech, like the AESA, and only US would not give ToT.

Secondly, if we go Russian, then our entire fleet would be Russian, which means being dependent on one supplier. Not acceptable.

 

[nitesh]

I hate to break it to you guys. But you got noone else that would supply you with technology as much as the Russians. I'd take it in your position, even if they are taking you for a ride. Your Space program would have collapsed years ago if the Russians didn't help you out with the multistage part of the SLV.

Well, dont take it otherwise, just curiosity, which parts does russians supplied for mutistaged SLV (here you mean PSLV and GSLV, correct me if I am wrong)

 

[p2prada]

Well, dont take it otherwise, just curiosity, which parts does russians supplied for mutistaged SLV (here you mean PSLV and GSLV, correct me if I am wrong)

neither the PSLV or GSLV. the SLV was our test bed rocket. One of first rocket system. There are russian inputs in the SLV. they never supplied parts, but they have helped us build them in india itself.

Note that indian missiles have manuverable warheads, similar to the russian systems.

 

[shehbazi2001]

neither the PSLV or GSLV. the SLV was our test bed rocket. One of first rocket system. There are russian inputs in the SLV. they never supplied parts, but they have helped us build them in india itself.

Note that indian missiles have manuverable warheads, similar to the russian systems.

Warheads are not maneuverable.....its the re-entry vehicle which maneuvers and warhead is inside the vehicle.......there is no rocket or nozzle attached to warhead to move it......

however,

Which missile are you talking about? I guess its a ballistic one and may be u r referring to Agni.....but u r talking of which version of Agni.......For prithvi, its too short-ranged to be equipped with high-tech warhead

 

[nitesh]

Warheads are not maneuverable.....its the re-entry vehicle which maneuvers and warhead is inside the vehicle.......there is no rocket or nozzle attached to warhead to move it......

however,

Which missile are you talking about? I guess its a ballistic one and may be u r referring to Agni.....but u r talking of which version of Agni.......For prithvi, its too short-ranged to be equipped with high-tech warhead

Well you are not entirely correct here. There are maneuverable warheads. Check this:

Strategic Missiles | Indian Defence Review
and
(Indian) Agni missile to get multiple warheads

And yes Prithvi will not have. Agni III and V will have them.

 

[shehbazi2001]

Well you are not entirely correct here. There are maneuverable warheads. Check this:

Strategic Missiles | Indian Defence Review
and
(Indian) Agni missile to get multiple warheads

And yes Prithvi will not have. Agni III and V will have them.

Your first reference says it all. It refers to maneuverable RV only. The second article is written by a common journalist, not acquainted with military knowledge.

A warhead simply cant re-enter the atmosphere all alone.....it would be burnt to ashes.......the RV protects the warhead from the extreme heat of the re-entry phase......a RV always has thermal protection.

The fuses etc and any terminal guidance system is installed in the RV......if warhead goes alone, how can it guide itself to the target????

 

[p2prada]

Warheads are not maneuverable.....its the re-entry vehicle which maneuvers and warhead is inside the vehicle.......there is no rocket or nozzle attached to warhead to move it......

however,

Which missile are you talking about? I guess its a ballistic one and may be u r referring to Agni.....but u r talking of which version of Agni.......For prithvi, its too short-ranged to be equipped with high-tech warhead

No, currently higher range missiles donot have that capability, except for the Topol M which is the first ICBM with a maneuverable warhead. The other missile systems with maneuverable warheads is the Prithvi 2,3 etc.
Agni 3 will be our first long range missile with maneuverable warheads.

The 2nd article u criticised is written by Ajai Shukla

Broadsword

his blog might help. He is one of our top defence reporters. his report is accurate. He quoted the words of the missile scientists (the part where he writes.............

They will be multiple warheads (Multiple Independently Targetable Re-entry Vehicles, or MIRVs), with each missile delivering several warheads at the same, or even different, targets. Decoy warheads, which will be fired alongside the genuine warheads, so that enemy’s missiles are wasted in attacking decoys, rather than the real warheads. Manoeuvring warheads, which will weave through the atmosphere, dodging enemy missiles that are fired at it. Stealth technologies to make the warheads invisible to enemy radars. Changing warheads’ thermal signatures, to confuse the enemy’s infrared seekers.

.......is accurate.



As for the Topol M

link>>>>Washington Times - Russian warhead alters course midflight in test

Unlike current ballistic warheads that do not alter their flight paths sharply once they reach space, the new warhead can change course and range while traveling at speeds estimated at about 3 miles per second, the officials said.

Maneuvering warheads represents a difficult physics challenge because changing course at such high speeds normally would cause a warhead to disintegrate.

Maneuverability would let a warhead thwart missile defenses, because such countermeasures rely on sensors to project a warhead's flight path and impact point so that an interceptor missile can be guided to the right spot to knock out a warhead.

As for info on the Topol M

link>>>RT-2PMU? - Topol-M SS-27 - Russian / Soviet Nuclear Forces

The Topol-M can carry a maneuverable warhead,

Cheers