A teenager has beheaded a teacher in northern Paris for showing pictures of Prophet Mohammed in class

[LeGenD]

So showing abusive, nude pictures of revered personalities to teens is your idea of freedom of speech, and no one has a right to be offended?

How are you a TTA on this forum populated by Muslim Pakistanis? @WebMaster

What message are we sending to our Pakistani readership?

Please be mindful of following considerations.

Other forms of discrimination

Same goes for ethnic or nationalistic discriminatory views, aimed at stereotyping and berating members belonging to a specific area, country, religious, ethnic group

Commenting on Management decisions

Any protest or questions on management decisions should be done at the GHQ section or via communication to contact@defence.pk email if the member is already banned.

LINK: https://defence.pk/pdf/rules/

---

The aforementioned advise extend to all members of this forum.

PDF is one of the best platforms to convey Pakistani perspectives to the world by and large but PDF is not restricted to Pakistani readership and membership only - this forum have multi-national membership and representation. Is this not obvious to all?

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

You are the one that wanted to show nude pictures of my parents to a class full of kids.
And you have the temerity to lecture me about morality.
..such a thought would not cross the mind of a decent human being.

I guess you are not familiar with the content of those drawings. Read the few articles posted in this thread to understand exactly what you are defending.

You seem to have a poor comprehension of the English language. It was an analogy to compare the sacred cow of most people which is "family" and then show that Muslims revere the Prophet saws more than their families or even themselves.

Somehow you are trying to twist my words to mean something else entirely. If you did not understand, simply ask for clarification.

Again with this TTA nonsense @AgNoStiC MuSliM @WebMaster . Refer to your PM a few weeks ago, I volunteer to be stripped of my TTA title since it bothers some members so much.
..and of course happy to leave PDF if you want me to..

That is totally up to moderator discretion.

However having a TTA which defends blasphemy against the Prophet Muhammad saws is a very bad image for this forum.

He did not knew about you and as you know that in eastern countries, it is considered inappropriate for people to move freely naked on beach, especially Muslim countries. Therefore, he expected to present this as an anology.However, you spoke according to your lifestyle which confused him.

It's simply a misunderstanding or cultural clash.

Whoops

I am American, I know exactly what I said. It is not my fault the poster in question misinterpreted it as an insult.

They find fault when a nude of someone else is mentioned in a hypothetical situation, but are OK when one is drawn of the Prophet SAWS specifically to mock us, and then they proceed to lecture us Muslims that we should have no problem with it.

Hypocrisy.

 

[Indos]

The student is from Russia, probably Tatar or Chechen or Central Asian ethnic. If he doesnt like what the teacher did (of course we all dont like it and condemt the teacher action), just remember that it is what Western society believe. That teacher mentality is also adopted by most Westerners. We just can't change it.

So better to be patience, study well, working in a good company, set up a business, and then after having enough financial capacity leave the country and pick one potential Muslim country as their next country to live and contribute to Islam through the nation. Build up Muslim world strength instead of attacking Christian country civilian.

That is a noble act instead of killing another person and end up death or stay in prison for the rest of his life.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

I've heard that depictions of Mohammed were common in early Islam. Is the anger more from the image or the satrical nature of the image.?

It is the nature of the drawing which is the issue, which is intentionally drawn with the purpose to insult the personality of Rasulullah saws.

Whether they draw him nude, with a bomb in his turban, in bed with his wife, racist depiction of his face, or with him stars and crescent poking his body.

You think such things are not going to cause offense to Muslims?

Please be mindful of following considerations.

Other forms of discrimination

Same goes for ethnic or nationalistic discriminatory views, aimed at stereotyping and berating members belonging to a specific area, country, religious, ethnic group

Commenting on Management decisions

Any protest or questions on management decisions should be done at the GHQ section or via communication to contact@defence.pk email if the member is already banned.

LINK: https://defence.pk/pdf/rules/

---

The aforementioned advise extend to all members of this forum.

PDF is one of the best platforms to convey Pakistani perspectives to the world by and large but PDF is not restricted to Pakistani readership and membership only - this forum have multi-national membership and representation. Is this not obvious to all?

We expect that blasphemy against our dear Prophet Muhammad saws should not be allowed to be defended on this forum and neither Muslims belittled for taking offense to it, on this forum.

It gives a bad look to the forum at large when a TTA engages in such behavior. This is my view, maybe you guys feel differently.

I just wanted to bring it to your attention.

 

[khansaheeb]

Non Muslims also find many things in islam and Mohammad as not just bad but evil which don't have any place in a civilised society...one is free to condemn such evil customs and methods everywhere except in a classroom...children are sensitive by nature....no teacher should ever talk bad about any religion in a classroom(consisting of students of different faiths).
I condemn this even if a hindu teacher does it against islam...

If you dare go and talk to or attend Dr Naik's meetings to clarify your misconceptions about Islam. So may Hindus have had misconceptions and converted once Dr Naik spoke to them. I assume you have genuine thoughts and not some mental issue.

 

[LeGenD]

We expect that blasphemy against our dear Prophet Muhammad saws should not be allowed to be defended on this forum and neither Muslims belittled for taking offense to it, on this forum.

It gives a bad look to the forum at large when a TTA engages in such behavior. This is my view, maybe you guys feel differently.

I just wanted to bring it to your attention.

PDF Management does not tolerate blasphemy - do you seriously think this would be the case?

Religious discussions are discouraged in this forum for good reason.

Religious Discussions

PDF proudly maintains respect for all religions therefore; as PDF is primarily a defense and geopolitical forum, the management feels that, it is not the place for religious discussions. Kindly do not post religious threads nor respond to any and, please, refrain from using religion in arguments. It should be noted that ethnicity is different from religion, Muslims/ Hindu/ Christians are ethnicities and Islam / Hinduism / Christianity are religions. This also includes sectarianism as well; PDF is not the place to have a dialogue on religion. Violation of this rule would be considered serious as it often leads to issues based on religious / communal tensions.

These discussions have caused communal tensions before, and this thread is another example in itself.

You happen to be an informed member but you also have the tendency to ignore advice/pointers.

Direct me towards incriminating evidence. I will give it FAIR look/consideration.

 

[BATMAN]

No one has right to make fun of any religion in the name of freedom of speech. They made fun of Last prophet of MUHAMMAD (PBUH), here so many believer of lahori prophet who support french freedom of expression.
What ever law you impose if someone try to make a fun Of last PROPHET MUHAMMAD (PBUH) punishment will be given by true Muslim. ALLHUMDOILLAH student did a great job - in my eyes he act like ALI (RA).

Is this your justification for the crime?

I witness brain washing in Pakistan... i quote here example of PM of Pakistan, who in his first speech at OIC brought in the matter of cartoons.... whereupon he angrily addressed the member nations and said they need to do more than condemnation.... so here we are some one subscribing to his preaching.

 

[Indos]

I've heard that depictions of Mohammed were common in early Islam. Is the anger more from the image or the satrical nature of the image.?

No one do that in Muslim world. There is clear prohibition about that and early Muslim is the era where Muslim really follow the regulation written in Quran and Hadith. Despite that, we can say his description like his hair, beard, skin, nose, and other and this description has already been recorded by his companions. Prophet Muhammad biography like the one written by Muhammad Haikal is one of the books that wrote about prophet Muhammad description based on his companions words.

Any way for those Muslim who have seen him directly through dream, it is a pleasure to remember his face, posture and others.

In one of the earliest sources, Ibn Sa'd's Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, there are numerous verbal descriptions of prophet Muhammad. One description sourced to Ali ibn Abi Talib is as follows:

The Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, is neither too short nor too tall. His hair are neither curly nor straight, but a mixture of the two. He is a man of black hair and large skull. His complexion has a tinge of redness. His shoulder bones are broad and his palms and feet are fleshy. He has long al-masrubah which means hair growing from neck to navel. He is of long eye-lashes, close eyebrows, smooth and shining fore-head and long space between two shoulders. When he walks he walks inclining as if coming down from a height. [...] I never saw a man like him before him or after him.[26]

 

[LeGenD]

According to French media reports the teacher did warn his students the contents of his lecture may offend some students and such students could opt out of the session.

This teacher went overboard in his teaching methods. He disrespected Islam and hurt sentiments of Muslims in his lecture.

Being a teacher myself, I will never stoop to the level of disrespecting any religion no matter the subject. This profession carry great responsibility.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

PDF Management does not tolerate blasphemy - do you seriously think this would be the case?

Religious discussions are discouraged in this forum for good reason.

Religious Discussions

PDF proudly maintains respect for all religions therefore; as PDF is primarily a defense and geopolitical forum, the management feels that, it is not the place for religious discussions. Kindly do not post religious threads nor respond to any and, please, refrain from using religion in arguments. It should be noted that ethnicity is different from religion, Muslims/ Hindu/ Christians are ethnicities and Islam / Hinduism / Christianity are religions. This also includes sectarianism as well; PDF is not the place to have a dialogue on religion. Violation of this rule would be considered serious as it often leads to issues based on religious / communal tensions.

These discussions have caused communal tensions before, and this thread is another example in itself.

This is not a religious discussion, nowhere has Quran, Ahadith, or sects been discussed. This is a current event which follows an unfortunate incident.

Certain members are using this case to 'lecture' Muslims as if they come from a civilization which does not have any vigilantes.

Certain members want us to condemn a person who acted on his feelings and emotions (maybe went overboard, true,) but no doubt he loved Allah swt and his Prophet saws.

You happen to be an informed member but you also have the tendency to ignore advice/pointers.

Direct me towards incriminating evidence. I will give it FAIR look/consideration.

I have my strong convictions just as anyone else.

I do believe that being a moderator or title-holder, one should be held to higher standards than the common member.

If questioned, the title-holder should defend his views and not get emotional as above.

I will produce the evidence of what I believe is not acceptable on this forum from the TTA.

Already many of my reports have resulted in deleting or edits of comments which were denigrating to the Islamic faith and made in an effort to preach or engage in polemics against Islam. I am thankful to moderation for their swift action.

Allah swt bless you all. I know it is not easy the work you do.
@LeGenD I will open a thread in GHQ to discuss this with you, so it leaves this thread.

Another point I want to make clear is that I am not discriminating this user based on their " ethnic or nationalistic discriminatory views, aimed at stereotyping and berating members belonging to a specific area, country, religious, ethnic group. "

This issue is related specifically to blasphemy and nothing else.

 

[dbc]

This teacher went overboard in his teaching methods. He disrespected Islam and hurt sentiments of Muslims in his last lecture.

Being a teacher myself, I will never stoop to the level of disrespecting any religion no matter the subject. This profession carry great responsibility.

Yes that is commendable but I suspect this case is much more nuanced than is known to the general public at this time. As fact emerge we may know more about the intentions of this teacher. In any case I choose to recuse myself from this thread.

 

[Dark1]

She is American so she is putting narrative as per her perspective. However, I totally agree with you on the other point. West newly discovered self claimed "enlightenment" is not something that has fascinated us nor their condemning of our ideology and faith just because they don't agree with us should matter to us either. We exist like they do and we have sentiments like they do. If they will not show empathy and understand our sentiments than they should not expect cooperation from us. Why should we bow when we are not the ones who resort to show insensitivity and phobia in the name of so called freedom of expression bullshit. This bloody nonsense should not make us question our sense of identity to us.
As far as some Indian members are concerned (not all), I literally laugh at their hypocricy. These people are trying to "educate" us who have elected murderer as pm.India where riots have taken lives and honor of saveral innocent souls, where houses were burnt, where Christians were stripped off their clothes and forced to stand naked because of difference of their faith. Where they forced Muslim women to drink petrol and burned them alive will now dare to come an tell us about tolerance. Disgusting and shameful.
Rather than that , if all of us have utilized this platform for solution and useful adjustments than the orientation would have been more positive.

Regards

You can speak when cases of hindus murdering anyone in the west or anywhere else out of India, emerges , for hurting their sentiments.
The killings happened in Indian northern states.
Even the cow vigilantes dont advocate killing foreigners for killing and eating cows in foreign countries or even in the 10 odd states in India where cow slaughter is legal.
You guys move to foreign countries for economic or freedom reasons and want to impose your ideals on totally alien civilizations.

 

[khansaheeb]

You can speak when cases of hindus murdering anyone in the west or anywhere else out of India, emerges , for hurting their sentiments.
The killings happened in Indian northern states.
Even the cow vigilantes dont advocate killing foreigners for killing and eating cows in foreign countries or even in the 10 odd states in India where cow slaughter is legal.
You guys move to foreign countries for economic or freedom reasons and want to impose your ideals on totally alien civilizations.

Ermm , Muslim soldiers helped liberate France and Europe from Nazis in 1945, so we have every right to express our views and disgust. In the UK and US I see people killed for lesser things so killings due to dishonor are not specific to Muslims. Try talking to a crazed Christian zealot about abuse in the Church and he will tear your limbs off.

 

[Indos]

No one has right to make fun of any religion in the name of freedom of speech. They made fun of Last prophet of MUHAMMAD (PBUH), here so many believer of lahori prophet who support french freedom of expression.
What ever law you impose if someone try to make a fun Of last PROPHET MUHAMMAD (PBUH) punishment will be given by true Muslim. ALLHUMDOILLAH student did a great job - in my eyes he act like ALI (RA).

Men, our religion is perfect. Instead of killing the one who make fun of our prophet, why not using words to respond back as their religion has so many ridiculous flaws. They can only insult us using false acqusition while we can attack back by bringing fact of their religious flaws. Words/non violence action should be responded by words/non violence action as well. Muslim is ordered to act in the basis of justice.

In my opinion Islam will be better if freedom of speech is applied because we can freely say their religion flaws publicly without fear being jailed. Freedom of speech is good for our Dakwah purposes. And words or even pictures should not make us get angry. It is why there is verses in Quran saying that instead of being angry, we should be patience if some one insulted Islam. We can choose to be patience or respond back by something similar in the degree of their insult.

Quran, Ali Imran verse 186

You ˹believers˺ will surely be tested in your wealth and yourselves, and you will certainly hear many hurtful words from those who were given the Scripture before you and ˹from˺ the polytheists. But if you are patient and mindful ˹of Allah˺—surely this is a resolve to aspire to.


Quran, An-Nahl verse 126

If you retaliate, then let it be equivalent to what you have suffered. But if you patiently endure, it is certainly best for those who are patient.

 

[LeGenD]

This is not a religious discussion, nowhere has Quran, Ahadith, or sects been discussed. This is a current event which follows an unfortunate incident.

Certain members are using this case to 'lecture' Muslims as if they come from a civilization which does not have any vigilantes.

Certain members want us to condemn a person who acted on his feelings and emotions (maybe went overboard, true,) but no doubt he loved Allah swt and his Prophet saws.



I have my strong convictions just as anyone else.

I do believe that being a moderator or title-holder, one should be held to higher standards than the common member.

If questioned, the title-holder should defend his views and not get emotional as above.

I will produce the evidence of what I believe is not acceptable on this forum from the TTA.

Already many of my reports have resulted in deleting or edits of comments which were denigrating to the Islamic faith and made in an effort to preach or engage in polemics against Islam. I am thankful to moderation for their swift action.

Allah swt bless you all. I know it is not easy the work you do.
@LeGenD I will open a thread in GHQ to discuss this with you, so it leaves this thread.

Another point I want to make clear is that I am not discriminating this user based on their " ethnic or nationalistic discriminatory views, aimed at stereotyping and berating members belonging to a specific area, country, religious, ethnic group. "

This issue is related specifically to blasphemy and nothing else.

Thanks for your appreciation, bro.

This thread is about an incident (true) but the theme pertain to Holy Prophet (PBUH) - Depictions of Holy Prophet (PBUH) being forbidden - religious consideration/sentiment.

Even CNN offer an informative take on the issue:

Why images of Mohammed offend Muslims | CNN

Prohibitions against depicting the Prophet Mohammed may mystify many non-Muslims, but it speaks to a central tenet of Islam: the worship of God alone.

edition.cnn.com

While WE have allowed this discussion to continue in good faith, this thread will tempt members to post religious content to address its theme (see posts # 220 and 226).

The ongoing discussion led to multiple reports and communal tension as well. Therefore, my intervention to control the situation. Alternative is to LOCK this thread for good.

You have the right to report any content you may find offensive. Moderators will give it FAIR consideration.

However, PDF also strive for inter-faith and inter-national harmony. If an issue can be resolved through constructive dialogue and/or an apology, then this is for the best.