1904 China map admits Paracel, Spratly not Chinese territory

[EastSea]

From this map, most Northeast part of China, what we call "The Three Provinces of Northeast" , is not shown in it. This is quite unreasonable. Because the rulers of China at that time, including emperors themselves, came from Northeast, some say "Manchu". How could the map maker forgot emperors birthland when they make a whole country map? Can I say this is a fake map? Seriously.

Same as pekingwalker chinese guy on PDF now, he is Manchu, but he forgot Manch Kuo, he lost his identity.

 

[kankan326]

 

[kankan326]

Same as pekingwalker chinese guy on PDF now, he is Manchu, but he forgot Manch Kuo, he lost his identity.

__________________________
The same thing would never happen in 1904. Manchus were superior at that time. They were on the top class. They didn't have to work. The whole country fed them.

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

Kankan326, Which map you're talking about? the map at Origin Post (#1) is a old paper map, it was be scanned, then print...
Above, there are many old china maps.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/197629-1904-china-map-admits-paracel-spratly-not-chinese-territory.html#post3220667



And easy to see, the ancient Chinese maps did not mention two archipelagos Paracels and Spratlys, and there were no U-Shap claim as China's claims today.

 

[kankan326]

Kankan326, Which map you're talking about? the map at Origin Post (#1) is a old paper map, it was be scanned, then print...
Above, there are many old china maps.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/197629-1904-china-map-admits-paracel-spratly-not-chinese-territory.html#post3220667



And easy to see, the ancient Chinese maps did not mention two archipelagos Paracels and Spratlys, and there were no U-Shap claim as China's claims today.

Believe me. It's the same map we are talking about.

 

[Srinivas]

" In fact after losing of Hanoi, many troops of Viets went to China, ..." Nice. But please don't tell us, or rather change your textbook and tell your children, the next day that you occupied China. But do show your gratitude towards China.



It all depends.

If the Viets want Chinese islands, they will show one type of maps that everything belonged to Dai Viet. If the Viets want to show how China was aggressive, they would show another type of maps that everything was occupied by China.

For instance, they would laugh at Yuan occupation of China, obviously thinking Yuan was not Chinese. On second moment, they would proudly tell you they repelled Chinese invasion of Yuan Dynasty, now believing that Yuan is Chinese.

As I said in other post, today anything anti-China would make their blood burn like boiling witches brew in the cauldron...

internet Vietnamese are a such laughing stock... no education , no logical reasoning,... but a bag of boiling bloody thing...

Just like Chinese Here They will claim as victims of Japanese invasion and unequal treaties when they want sympathy and territories. The next movement they will issue threats by showing their victories( communist history ) when they want to force their claims.

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

Believe me. It's the same map we are talking about.

But OP talks about the ancient chinese map which possessed by a Vietnamese named Mai Hong, a Chinese language expert in Vietnam. We have only seen photo of its the lower portion.

The ancient maps, today with modern technology we can fully test it is real or fake, with the help of an independent scientific unit.

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

"

It all depends.

If the Viets want Chinese islands, they will show one type of maps that everything belonged to Dai Viet. If the Viets want to show how China was aggressive, they would show another type of maps that everything was occupied by China.

For instance, they would laugh at Yuan occupation of China, obviously thinking Yuan was not Chinese. On second moment, they would proudly tell you they repelled Chinese invasion of Yuan Dynasty, now believing that Yuan is Chinese.

As I said in other post, today anything anti-China would make their blood burn like boiling witches brew in the cauldron...

internet Vietnamese are a such laughing stock... no education , no logical reasoning,... but a bag of boiling bloody thing...

In fact, Yuan was a regime established in China by Mongolians, after the Mongols conquered China. So when Vietnam defeated Yuan 3 times, we can say that Vietnam defeated Mongols 3 times or Vietnam defeated Yuan Chinese 3 times, both are true, because Yuan has boss were Mongolians, troops were the Chinese...

 

[kankan326]

But OP talks about the ancient chinese map which possessed by a Vietnamese named Mai Hong. We have only seen photo of its the lower portion.

The ancient maps, today with modern technology we can fully test it is real or fake, with the help of an independent scientific unit.

Please check the background sofa. It's the same one. same person and same map.

In fact, Yuan was a regime established in China by Mongolians, after the Mongols conquered China. So when Vietnam defeated Yuan 3 times, we can say that Vietnam defeated Mongols 3 times or Vietnam defeated Yuan Chinese 3 times, both are true, because Yuan has boss were Mongolians, troops were the Chinese...

It not you defeated Yuan troops. It was the jungle that did the work for you

 

[Srinivas]

Please check the background sofa. It's the same one. same person and same map.

It not you defeated Yuan troops. It was the jungle that did the work for you

Denying Victory in this way

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

Please check the background sofa. It's the same one. same person and same map.

Yes, but the map possessed by Mr. Mai Hong, a Vietnamese?

It not you defeated Yuan troops. It was the jungle that did the work for you

Maybe you are a new member of PDF so you did not know that the decisive battles did not occur in the jungle, the 3rd victory occurred at estuary Bach Dang River in 1288, it was a navy battle.

The Battle of Bạch Đằng, which took place at the Bach Dang River, near Ha Long Bay in present-day northern Vietnam, was a battle between Đại Việt and the invading army of the Yuan Dynasty. It's considered part of the Third Mongol Invasion (1287-88).

In 1288 after the evacuation from the capital Thăng Long (present-day Hanoi), Đại Việt's Grand Commander Trần Hưng Đạo decided to launch an offensive against the Mongolians on the Bạch Đằng River and immediately set to organize the battle.
The Bạch Đằng River ran through Yen Hung district (in Quảng Ninh province) and Thuy Nguyen (in Hai Phong) before reaching the sea. This is where the well-known battle of Ngô Quyền against the Southern Han (Nanhan) took place in 938 A.D. It was from March, Trần Hưng Đạo was already there to prepare the battlefield. He borrowed the same tactic that Ngô Quyền used against the Chinese in 938. He studied the tidal lore, had beds of stakes planted under the water and arranged ambushes in a unified plan of campaign.

As was foreseen, the Mongolians in Thăng Long suffered an acute shortage of food. Without any news about the supply fleet, Prince Toghan found himself in a tight corner and had to order his army to retreat to Vạn Kiếp. This was when Đại Việt's Army began the general offensive by recapturing a number of locations occupied by the Mongol invaders. Groups of partisans were given orders to harass the enemy in Vạn Kiếp, putting them at a loss. Toghan had to split his army into two and retreat.
In early April the supply fleet led by Omar and escorted by infantry fled home along the Bạch Đằng river. As bridges and roads were destroyed and attacks were launched by Đại Việt's troops, the Mongols reached Bạch Đằng. Đại Việt's small flotilla engaged in battle and pretended to retreat. The Mongols eagerly pursued Đại Việt troops and fell into their pre-arranged battlefield. Thousands of Đại Việt's small boats from both banks quickly appeared, fiercely launched the attack and broke the combat formation of the enemy. Inflicted with a sudden and strong attack, the Mongols tried to withdraw to the sea in panic. Hitting the stakes, their boats were halted, many of which were broken and sunk. At that time, a number of fire rafts quickly rushed toward them. Frightened, the Mongolian troops jumped down to get to the banks where they were dealt a heavy blow by a big army led by the Trần king and Trần Hưng Đạo.
The Mongolian supply fleet was totally destroyed. Omar was captured.
At the same time, Đại Việt's Army made continuous attacks and smashed to pieces Toghan’s army on its route of withdrawal through Lạng Sơn. Toghan risked his life making a shortcut through forests to flee home.

The Battle of Bạch Đằng went down as one of the greatest victories in Vietnamese military history and is a well-known event in Vietnam.
In 1959 during excavation works in Yen Giang commune, Vietnamese archaeologists found the sharpened stakes that were used during the campaign in 1288.

Battle of B


Review the original post:

1904 China map admits Paracel, Spratly not Chinese territory
Last Updated: Sunday, July 22, 2012 05:00:00

A Chinese language expert in Vietnam has an official map of China from 1904 that does not show Hoang Sa (Paracel) and Truong Sa (Spratly) islands as belonging to that country.

The map possessed by Mai Hong, former head of the archive at the Han Nom Institute that studies ancient Vietnamese language and its influence by Chinese, for more than 30 years shows Hainan Island as China’s southernmost tip.

The two archipelagoes off Vietnam’s central coast are not shown in the map.

But now China claims the islands despite lots of historical evidence showing Vietnam’s existence on the islands before anyone else.

A Vietnamese map from 1834 includes the two islands.

Hong said the colored-paper map was made during the Qing Dynasty era and published by the Shanghai Publishing House.

Hong said the Chinese descriptions on the map indicate it took from 1708 to 1904, from the time of Emperor Guangxi to that of Guangxu, to complete it.

The kings sent scholars and experts, including Westerners such as Johann Adam Schall von Bell and Ferdinand Verbiest, to all of China's then 13 provinces for the task, he said.

The foreword was written by the then director of an observatory.

Hong had bought the map from a familiar book seller for his institute. “He showed me the map and suggested that I should buy it. It cost more than my one month salary.”

On July 4 he handed over the well-preserved, 115 cm x 140 cm map to the Vietnam National History Museum in Hanoi. A handover ceremony is being held Tuesday with several historians attending.

“I think this map can provide some very good information for Vietnam’s defense at international negotiations. A proof from China themselves will save us from (verbal) attacks.”

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

Found this:

1770 Bonne Map of China

Another map showing that Hainan is the southernmost territory of China.

When China drew those 9-dash line, they based that on what the Chinese wants with no regard for neighbors’ legal rights. And also it's not about ancient Chinese heritage. Chinese heritage claims are not really supported by legal documents, strong basis in terms of history, and any international laws.


Chinese government suppress information that does not align with their claim so the general Chinese population will only see the false info their govt is spreading. In general the chinese people were not informed properly, what they know are just bias info towards their claim. So I'm not surprised of Chinese posters here who sincerely believe that they own the SCS.

In the fact, the claim "nine dotted line" of the PRC is based on "11 dotted line" was drawn the first time in 1947, first published in 1948 in a private publication under Chiang Kai-Shek regime. [After Chiang's army received the task by the Allies of disarming the Japanese troops in 1946].

And the "9 dotted line" does not have any basis, without any GPS coordinates, unstable, nobody knows the meaning of what it is.

Another strange thing is that CCP was promoting, to print the map "nine dotted line" in Chinese textbooks to brainwash chinese people. So most of Chinese people blindly believe that the waters are in the "9 dotted line" is the "sovereignty" of China. But when asked what its coordinates, nobody knows.

 

[Cristoph]

In the fact, the claim "nine dotted line" of the PRC is based on "11 dotted line" was drawn the first time in 1947, first published in 1948 in a private publication under Chiang Kai-Shek regime. [After Chiang's army received the task by the Allies of disarming the Japanese troops in 1946].

And the "9 dotted line" does not have any basis, without any GPS coordinates, unstable, nobody knows the meaning of what it is.

Another strange thing is that CCP was promoting, to print the map "nine dotted line" in Chinese textbooks to brainwash chinese people. So most of Chinese people blindly believe that the waters are in the "9 dotted line" is the "sovereignty" of China. But when asked what its coordinates, nobody knows.

thanks for ur kindly notice of our history. i am just wondering if the textbook is right about viet-nam was a vassal state of our country? moreover, our old government, the Kuomintang, did what they could after the ww2. if you were one of the deciders of ROC, i cant expect you could do better than them as a real CHINESE.
I just been to vietnam in the last april for travelling. and i noticed the viet people are kindness and warm-hearted. i could see Chinese characters on most of the buildings all over the country. i cant believe there was a fight (or many) between our countries. Honestly, we Chinese DO NOT HATE everyone in this world, even the Japanese people. We just DO NOT WANT TO BE bullied and insulted as we had in 1900s'.
Back to the topic, yes, we matter with the issues between our countries (or others) about the lands or islands, it is because we DO NOT WANT to be insulted anymore! And in some ways, we had make some benefits with our neighbours, including Japan, Vietnam, Phlipppens or others! but you just refused and wanted them all! and that was a really insult to our people and our belief.
Yes! we dont want any wars! but we dont want to be insulted, either!
Last, do judge others by your own exp., caz they dont have the advantages as you had!

 

[EastSea]

thanks for ur kindly notice of our history. i am just wondering if the textbook is right about viet-nam was a vassal state of our country? moreover, our old government, the Kuomintang, did what they could after the ww2. if you were one of the deciders of ROC, i cant expect you could do better than them as a real CHINESE.
I just been to vietnam in the last april for travelling. and i noticed the viet people are kindness and warm-hearted. i could see Chinese characters on most of the buildings all over the country. i cant believe there was a fight (or many) between our countries. Honestly, we Chinese DO NOT HATE everyone in this world, even the Japanese people. We just DO NOT WANT TO BE bullied and insulted as we had in 1900s'.
Back to the topic, yes, we matter with the issues between our countries (or others) about the lands or islands, it is because we DO NOT WANT to be insulted anymore! And in some ways, we had make some benefits with our neighbours, including Japan, Vietnam, Phlipppens or others! but you just refused and wanted them all! and that was a really insult to our people and our belief.
Yes! we dont want any wars! but we dont want to be insulted, either!
Last, do judge others by your own exp., caz they dont have the advantages as you had!

Claim of China over Islands of Vietnam is wrong. It reported that by the last opinion servey in China only 5 % chinese deny using force with Vietnam, 95 % supported with aggressive comments. Propaganda of CPC brainwashed chinese people.
It's first your post on PDF, if you can take power in China I think two countries can solve this matter peacefully base on rules of international laws. In such case no one lost his face to his people.

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

Please check the background sofa. It's the same one. same person and same map.

Well, I have more information, the map of China published in 1904 by Shanghai Publishing House. The map possessed by Dr. Mai Hồng, a Vietnamese, a Chinese language expert in Vietnam. He has kept the map from 40 years ago, after he bought it.
This is a video of Dr. Mai Hồng and the map at his home: