Pakistan pitches for mutual demilitarisation of Siachen after Lance Naik Koppad's death

ejaz007 said:

India started planning for Siachin way earlier then 1983 perhaps in 1979. Training was provided to the army in Siberia by the Soviets. The operations started in 1983. So preempting Pakistan's move is not correct. India had her intentions for which they planned and trained since 1979.

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As per agreements signed by Pakistan, it is Indian territory. So what we plan, when we plan in our territory is not bound by what Pakistan feels or thinks.

SamantK said:

Yes, everything is Indian unprovoked aggression. Pakistan has always sat pretty.

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No need to outright distort my comments out of pettiness - I never said 'everything', for either country.

surya kiran said:

What does the Kashmir Agreement say? Your government signed it. Ever bothered reading it? The concept of response does not simply arise, because, your government agreed to the putting it on paper.

So next time, read the agreements. Instead of crying every second day, Oh I meant this, but I wrote this.

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Nothing's wrong with the agreement - what's wrong is India's interpretation of the agreement (an interpretation contrary to how the majority of the international community interpreted it at that time) and her unprovoked military aggression in Siachen.

Abingdonboy said:

Who in their right mind would trust Pakistan to keep its word after Kargil, sheltering OBL, funding/training/supporting JuD, LeT, JeM etc?

The ONLY way 'mutual demilitarisation' can happen is if both sides sign off on the AGPL but this is something the PA simply won't accept as doing so would expose the reality to the Pakistani populace that they have been lied to for decades and that the PA doesn't hold a single centimetre of the Siachin glacier.

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Kargil was a response to unprovoked Indian military aggression in Siachen - India canards about Kargil need to first take into account India's own unprovoked military aggression and sponsoring of terrorism in Jungadh, Hyderabad, East Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Balochistan etc.

And no Pakistan institution was involved in sheltering OBL, even the US has ZERO evidence implicating the GoP or other Pakistani institutions and it has stated that officially and repeatedly - hunted criminals roam undetected and free for years in almost every country in the world, but that doesn't mean the country they roam/hide in is deliberately complicit in hiding them.

ejaz007 said:

India started planning for Siachin way earlier then 1983 perhaps in 1979. Training was provided to the army in Siberia by the Soviets. The operations started in 1983. So preempting Pakistan's move is not correct. India had her intentions for which they planned and trained since 1979.

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Who has told you all this, post a link to this incredulous claim other than " I have heard.. "

Areesh said:

Obviously you would go off topic. Would discuss 1965, 1971, 1948 etc etc. I understand. But still you are responsible for Siachen. We all know that.

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India was the victor- end of story, the reasons behind it are meaningless, had it been the other way around you would be just as dismissive. India is willing to accept the cost of such a presence, perhaps Pakistan isn't because it gains almost nothing from doing so.

Psychic said:

Two bald men fighting over a comb.
Make this region a buffer zone and de-militarize it----It's a better solution as compared to engaging in fruitless and useless debates over that piece of "real estate".

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The only 'bald man fighting over a comb' is India - India took the first step of unprovoked military aggression to forcibly validate her skewed interpretation of the agreement demarcating the LoC, contrary to all international interpretations of the agreement at that time.

Given Indian military aggression in pursuit of her skewed interpretation of the LoC agreement, Pakistani forces are present to prevent any further military aggression and further forcible occupation of territory under the guise of India's farcical interpretations of the LoC agreement.

The ball is solely in India's court on this - the AGPL is a non-starter given that it requires a complete Pakistani surrender to India's farcical interpretation and an acceptance of Indian military aggression and territorial seizure by force.

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:

Kargil was a response to unprovoked Indian military aggression in Siachen - India canards about Kargil need to first take into account India's own unprovoked military aggression and sponsoring of terrorism in Jungadh, Hyderabad, East Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Balochistan etc.

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There can be no aggression within your own land.

Notice Siachen is still with India while Pak had to vacate Kargil - It must say something.

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:

And no Pakistan institution was involved in sheltering OBL, even the US has ZERO evidence implicating the GoP or other Pakistani institutions and it has stated that officially and repeatedly - hunted criminals roam undetected and free for years in almost every country in the world, but that doesn't mean the country they roam/hide in is deliberately complicit in hiding them.

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This only makes it worse & reinforces the view India & the world has about Pakistan - No one is in control !!

The worlds most dreaded terrorist shifts in next door to the PMA with wives et all .. and no one knew !

Difficult to swallow.

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:

Kargil was a response to unprovoked Indian military aggression in Siachen

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How were India's Siachen actions "unprovoked" when they were only launched preempting a similar Pakistan move? You guys were simply beat to the punch, the rest is loser talk. Only losers will go on about unprovoked this and that- it doesn't matter how things start but how they finish, India is quite happy with its finishing record you clearly are not.

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:

And no Pakistan institution was involved in sheltering OBL, even the US has ZERO evidence implicating the GoP or other Pakistani institutions and it has stated that officially and repeatedly - hunted criminals roam undetected and free for years in almost every country in the world, but that doesn't mean the country they roam/hide in is deliberately complicit in hiding them.

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Well that's perhaps worse than complicity- incompetency. The world's most wanted terrorist resided for years in a large house a few hundred metres from a ,supposedly, high security Pakistani institution- there was no "roaming" involved, he was static!

And I constantly see fanboys calling the ISI the world's best inelligence agency.

Hi,

Great keep this soft stance to show that we no longer support aggressive stance unlike our neighbour or as shown some of over enthusiastic posters.

Having said, It will definitely be a good development for both countries

Abingdonboy said:

ell that's perhaps worse than complicity- incompetency. The world's most wanted terrorist resided for years in a large house a few hundred metres from a ,supposedly, high security Pakistani institution- there was no "roaming" involved, he was static!

And I constantly see fanboys calling the ISI the world's best inelligence agency.

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Hello,

I can assure even with latest modern tech US was unable to find WMD in Iraq for which they destroyed the whole country and an entire nation, spare us too please. I can assure it was ghost of OBL and nothing more

third eye said:

There can be no aggression within your own land.

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It isn't 'Indian land', it's disputed per multiple UNSC resolutions that the Indian government officially and repeatedly committed to, and the international community.

Notice Siachen is still with India while Pak had to vacate Kargil - It must say something.

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Yes, it says something about changed global realities post Cold War and the desire of the international community to prevent conflict, especially between nuclear armed States.

This only makes it worse & reinforces the view India & the world has about Pakistan - No one is in control !!

The worlds most dreaded terrorist shifts in next door to the PMA with wives et all .. and no one knew !

Difficult to swallow.

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Your inability to 'swallow' is your problem. Drug lords, serial murderers and rapists have roamed free in the US and India for years before being caught. The objective of the criminal is to hide and escape, the objective of the State is to find and hold said criminal accountable. Does Pakistan have the resources of the US? No. Did the US share resources/intelligence with Pakistan to assist in OBL's capture? No.

There are obviously large gaps in governance, law enforcement and intelligence in Pakistan (as there are in many developing countries) - no one is denying that - but that does not mean that 'no one is in control'.

salarsikander said:

Hello,

I can assure even with latest modern tech US was unable to find WMD in Iraq for which they destroyed the whole country and an entire nation, spare us too please. I can assure it was ghost of OBL and nothing more

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There were never WMDs in Iraq- that was all a lie used to justify the invasion, we know this now. There can be no comparison with OBL. OBL was hiding in a Pakistani city and Pakistani (not foreign) security agencies failed to notice- is this what you're trying to tell me?

Abingdonboy said:

There were never WMDs in Iraq- that was all a lie used to justify the invasion, we know this now. There can be no comparison with OBL. OBL was hiding in a Pakistani city and Pakistani (not foreign) security agencies failed to notice- is this what you're trying to tell me?

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Hi,

How do you know there was no WMDin Iraq ?

Abingdonboy said:

How were India's Siachen actions "unprovoked" when they were only launched preempting a similar Pakistan move? You guys were simply beat to the punch, the rest is loser talk. Only losers will go on about unprovoked this and that- it doesn't matter how things start but how they finish, India is quite happy with its finishing record you clearly are not.

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Because the Pakistani move itself was a result of Indian escalation of the issue, the detection of Indian patrols and the realization in Pakistan that India was planning a military operation to occupy the glacier. India 'preempted' a Pakistani military operation that India herself was the cause of.

Well that's perhaps worse than complicity- incompetency. The world's most wanted terrorist resided for years in a large house a few hundred metres from a ,supposedly, high security Pakistani institution- there was no "roaming" involved, he was static!

And I constantly see fanboys calling the ISI the world's best inelligence agency.

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The term 'roaming' is not meant to be literal, but I'm pretty sure I didn't have to spell that out for you - you just can't resist petty point scoring through distorting the argument.

The ISI is not an omnipotent deity, and fanboys are called fanboys for a reason, but for you to use fanboy jingoism as justification in an argument is a pretty poor reflection on you. Sure there was incompetence, no institution is perfect.

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:

Your inability to 'swallow' is your problem. Drug lords, serial murderers and rapists have roamed free in the US and India for years before being caught. The objective of the criminal is to hide and escape, the objective of the State is to find and hold said criminal accountable. Does Pakistan have the resources of the US? No. Did the US share resources/intelligence with Pakistan to assist in OBL's capture? No.

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He was not "roaming":
roam
move about or travel aimlessly or unsystematically, especially over a wide area.

He remained in one place for years in a garrison city, he wasn't even trying to elude the security agencies. Now if you are saying the world's most wanted man could remain in a large house a few hundred metres away from one of Pakistan's most protected facilties and you never knew about it- this is far more chilling than the alternative (that they were actively harbouring him).

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:

It isn't 'Indian land', it's disputed per multiple UNSC resolutions that the Indian government officially and repeatedly committed to, and the international community.

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Disputed means ' finders keepers .. losers weepers" . Pak should know this .. surely.

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:

Yes, it says something about changed global realities post Cold War and the desire of the international community to prevent conflict, especially between nuclear armed States.

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It says a lot more than this . Only you seem to chose to ignore.

Back in 83 -84 Pak was not a nuclear state.

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:

Your inability to 'swallow' is your problem. Drug lords, serial murderers and rapists have roamed free in the US and India for years before being caught. The objective of the criminal is to hide and escape, the objective of the State is to find and hold said criminal accountable. Does Pakistan have the resources of the US? No. Did the US share resources/intelligence with Pakistan to assist in OBL's capture? No.

There are obviously large gaps in governance, law enforcement and intelligence in Pakistan (as there are in many developing countries) - no one is denying that - but that does not mean that 'no one is in control'.

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I appreciate the discomfort this subject creates to loyal & intelligent Pakistanis .

Abingdonboy said:

He was not "roaming":
roam
move about or travel aimlessly or unsystematically, especially over a wide area.

He remained in one place for years in a garrison city, he wasn't even trying to elude the security agencies. Now if you are saying the world's most wanted man could remain in a large house a few hundred metres away from one of Pakistan's most protected facilties and you never knew about it- this is far more chilling than the alternative (that they were actively harbouring him).

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Like I said earlier - if you want to stick to petty point scoring by distorting the context in which the word 'roam' was used, find someone willing to stoop to that level of intellectual disingenuity and trolling to engage with. If you have any further rational and serious arguments to make, I'm all 'eyes'.