Israeli Defence Analyst urges Jerusalem to invest in India’s AMCA over American F-35

Ankit Kumar said:

Can the GE414 provide AMCA, with Super Cruise , Super Maneuverability and TV?

Apart from a sensor fusion, stealth these capabilities truly define 5th gen.

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One variant did demonstrate supercruise at Mach 1.2 i think it was Ge 414 G variant in JAS Gripen 39 demonstrator
General Electric F414 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not sure this version is same like EPE...

Why is India going for US engine in AMCA, it would be prone to sanctions any time in future

@ PARIKARAMA

[Bregs] said:

Why is India going for US engine in AMCA, it would be prone to sanctions any time in future

@ PARIKARAMA

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India has not decided its partner for engine development yet.....USA, France, Russia, UK are primary bidders.....

[Bregs] said:

Why is India going for US engine in AMCA, it would be prone to sanctions any time in future

@ PARIKARAMA

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Well some say commonality with LCA Mark 2..
Some say bcz USA/GE will give us engine tech for hot weather and metallurgy..

USA normally does not give anything.. If they give it will be a carrot and stick policy

Carrot: High end tech as you desire like under DTII engine program, EMALs, and what not
Stick: Sign LSA, CISMOA, BECA and try and align India with USA Geo political and strategical thinking

IF i go by K Tamilmani Interview last year he said existing market has few engines which are around 90Kn thrust. AMCA project envisions tie up with an engine maker and take it upward to customised version.

IMHO i wont advocate US engines as i said earlier.. I would rather fund a joint development with Safran for a new M88 family engine or name it something new...

My simple reasoning being LCAs will see how many GE 414 uses..? Say 100 more LCA with 414 power plant and add say 40-50 naval variant so about 150 Engines and another 150 Engines as replacement and add few more for spares @1:3 so all in all about 350 engines,,, May be more based on more numbers...

Now imagine say a M88 family engine with a similar length and dimensions like present one.. If commonality is the jargon then i would prefer a more common pool with a twin engine variant already in use with IAF then a single engine one..
Even with a conservative 100 Rafales jets you get more than the number of engines that you have procured for LCA GE 414 program (100x2+100x2+200x1/3 = 200+200+66 = 466 versus 350 )

If the Rafales IAF+In reach 200 then engine requirement touches closer to 1000..
So why we should not rather approach Safran and seek this opportunity out...

There is less carrot and stick issue with anything French then USA.. Money both will ask anyways.. Nothing is coming free of course...

Ankit Kumar said:

And Thrust Vector?

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Whatever will be requirements ( primarily 110+ kn engine, TVC), it will be developed accordingly. But let partners be selected first. Lately even Russians are trying hard to be partner in that..anyway India's role in JV will be more or less but funding.

PARIKRAMA said:

Well some say commonality with LCA Mark 2..
Some say bcz USA/GE will give us engine tech for hot weather and metallurgy..

USA normally does not give anything.. If they give it will be a carrot and stick policy

Carrot: High end tech as you desire like under DTII engine program, EMALs, and what not
Stick: Sign LSA, CISMOA, BECA and try and align India with USA Geo political and strategical thinking

IF i go by K Tamilmani Interview last year he said existing market has few engines which are around 90Kn thrust. AMCA project envisions tie up with an engine maker and take it upward to customised version.

IMHO i wont advocate US engines as i said earlier.. I would rather fund a joint development with Safran for a new M88 family engine or name it something new...

My simple reasoning being LCAs will see how many GE 414 uses..? Say 100 more LCA with 414 power plant and add say 40-50 naval variant so about 150 Engines and another 150 Engines as replacement and add few more for spares @1:3 so all in all about 350 engines,,, May be more based on more numbers...

Now imagine say a M88 family engine with a similar length and dimensions like present one.. If commonality is the jargon then i would prefer a more common pool with a twin engine variant already in use with IAF then a single engine one..
Even with a conservative 100 Rafales jets you get more than the number of engines that you have procured for LCA GE 414 program (100x2+100x2+100x1/3 = 200+200+66 = 466 versus 350 )

If the Rafales IAF+In reach 200 then engine requirement touches closer to 1000..
So why we should not rather approach Safran and seek this opportunity out...

There is less carrot and stick issue with anything French then USA.. Money both will ask anyways.. Nothing is coming free of course...

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Well right the engine for such a crucial future aircraft will be much safer sanction wise if its other then US. French are far better

Option 1
What we need is a high dry thrust engine,the envisioned ge engine is have lot less dry thrust,so we should cooperate with EU consortium for upgraded EJ200 for AMCA

Option2
There is an un finished engine called F136 by GE&RR(which was supposed to go for RAF f35s,as per reports GE requires 1billion+ finish the project and pentagon stop funding for the development since 2013) ,the thrust specification of f136 may be too much for AMCA in present form,very high thrust engine will give us the flexibility of having f22style flat thrust vectoring nozzles (better stealth character but with a compromise on effective thrust) & bit large airframe.

I don't want to go for French engine,which is too underpowered one and there is a limit for pushing the limits,it will be highly maintanence intencive & short lived engine if they tuned this engine as per ADA requirements.

[Bregs] said:

Why is India going for US engine in AMCA, it would be prone to sanctions any time in future

@ PARIKARAMA

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The gen5 airframe itself is highly maintanence intensive,we can't afford an other maintanence intense engine in it (that also two engine) so sadly Russians are out in this scenario,only EU,RR & US firms are the left out option. Otherwise we have to devolop our own engine.

somebozo said:

At Least it flies and is mass produced..the bulk procurement of engines from Russia is a very real contract..

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Exactly it just flies!!! #junkplane

Do Israelis have any experience in Engine design? If yes, why not involve them in making new type engine? If no, then ......

@PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar

thesolar65 said:

Do Israelis have any experience in Engine design? If yes, why not involve them in making new type engine? If no, then ......

@PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar

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India is having more expertise in engine design than Israelis,but Israelis will come in handy while designing avionics & data fusion nd all.

Israel is a free country. Anyone can himself/herself a defense analyst and urge the government to do this or that. It is so easy to do it over the internet...

Natan said:

Israel is a free country. Anyone can himself/herself a defense analyst and urge the government to do this or that. It is so easy to do it over the internet...

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So is India!!

Natan said:

Israel is a free country. Anyone can himself/herself a defense analyst and urge the government to do this or that. It is so easy to do it over the internet...

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Israel officially involves in AMCA or not but few Israeli systems/subsystems will be eventually end up used in AMCA anyway.....

thesolar65 said:

Do Israelis have any experience in Engine design? If yes, why not involve them in making new type engine? If no, then ......

@PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar

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They have /do produce IAI GE J79 turbo fans for the IAI Kfirs.
So saying we are ahead than Israel in building engines is wrong.

Ankit Kumar said:

They have /do produce IAI GE J79 turbo fans for the IAI Kfirs.
So saying we are ahead than Israel in building engines is wrong.

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It's like GE f404 IN 20 only,actually GE has done all works in both mentioned cases.
But we do have working jet engine kaveri,design & developed in India.