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JF-17 Thunder: Made for the PAF

In contrary to popular belief being spread Pakistani researchers and designers done or contributed Baba jee ka thullu. Here is a glimpse of their contribution.

aiaa-2010-481-page-001-jpg.32930


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And there are couple more research papers. If anyone interested to read complete research papers , they are shared in JF-17 info pool thread. So If someone still thinks, Pakistan doesnot contributed anything in to Flight control systems, DSI and other aspects of JF-17 design. They should continue to live in their fantasy world. While others continue to laugh on their ignorance.
 
In contrary to popular belief being spread Pakistani researchers and designers done or contributed Baba jee ka thullu. Here is a glimpse of their contribution.

aiaa-2010-481-page-001-jpg.32930


aiaa-2011-920-page-001-jpg.32923




And there are couple more research papers. If anyone interested to read complete research papers , they are shared in JF-17 info pool thread. So If someone still thinks, Pakistan doesnot contributed anything in to Flight control systems, DSI and other aspects of JF-17 design. They should continue to live in their fantasy world. While others continue to laugh on their ignorance.

Pakistan's contributions are considerable, but the quoted works are more in the field of airframe design than FCS, no offence intended, Sir.
 
Pakistan's contributions are considerable, but the quoted works are more in the field of airframe design than FCS, no offence intended, Sir.

That was an example case. Since they were allowed to present their work. In due time, when they allow FCS team to publish their work, we will see research papers from Pakistani side as well. It all about the declassifying.
 
That was an example case. Since they were allowed to present their work. In due time, when they allow FCS team to publish their work, we will see research papers from Pakistani side as well. It all about the declassifying.

I agree, the example is just that, and I am sure that the present flying and testing program has Pakistani inputs and contributions as an integral part. That is the only way it can work.
 
That was an example case. Since they were allowed to present their work. In due time, when they allow FCS team to publish their work, we will see research papers from Pakistani side as well. It all about the declassifying.

You are absolutely right. What many don't know (and other deny out of bad habits) are the facts on Pakistan's design input. The Super Seven was the Chinese design all the way, with some input from the US (obsolete at this point). The journey from the Super Seven to the JFT is a Pakistani project.

From the JFT to FC-20, Pakistan has provided serious input to the Chinese due to their experience managing and overhauling the F-16's and the Mirages (FC-20 is essentially based on core Mirage principles, aerodynamics, flight management and control characteristics, now also visible in Rafale and EFT too). The Pakistani engineers helped the Chinese from transitioning from the 1970's Soviet Era Migs to the 1990's designs of F-16's, Mirages (Mirage 200-9 is the latest block), in turn revolutionize the Chinese aircraft designs.

The cockpit of the JFT, the ejection system principles, the FBW, the Qudplex flight control system, the user interface and flight characteristics are heavily influenced by Pakistani input, which comes from the F-16's flight management characteristics and from the Mirages.

The JFT prototype 001 and any of the planes from the 10-XXX batch, are essentially two entirely different planes, in terms of capability, performance and handling.
 
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From the JFT to FC-20, Pakistan has provided serious input to the Chinese due to their experience managing and overhauling the F-16's and the Mirages (FC-20 is essentially based on core Mirage principles, aerodynamics, flight management and control characteristics, now also visible in Rafale and EFT too). The Pakistani engineers helped the Chinese from transitioning from the 1970's Soviet Era Migs to the 1990's designs of F-16's, Mirages (Mirage 200-9 is the latest block), in turn revolutionize the Chinese aircraft designs.

The cockpit of the JFT, the ejection system principles, the FBW, the Qudplex flight control system, the user interface and flight characteristics are heavily influenced by Pakistani input, which comes from the F-16's flight management characteristics and from the Mirages.

The JFT prototype 001 and any of the planes from the 10-XXX batch, are essentially two entirely different planes, in terms of capability, performance and handling.
I dont mean to insult the chinese but without the Pakistani input... the JF-17 would have been yet another Mig 21 clone or an exact copy of another existing Russian plane.
the outlook of the jet cant ben pinned down to a single plane .. there might be some similarities with say F-16 or Hornet and Mirage to some extent but most are unique to itself
 
Target Achieved, PAC produced 16 JF-17 aircrafts in 2015
December 28th, 2015 National
PESHAWAR: Spokesperson for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on Monday has said that Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has achieved its annual production goal.
The spokesperson stated that authorities had decided to enhance aeronautical complex’s production capabilities.
The complex has handed over 16th JF-17 Thunder aircraft to the air force in the ongoing year.
Earlier in September, Kamra complex had made the Airborne Warning And Control System (AWACS) aircraft operational on half the cost as compared to foreign companies. As a result, USD 15 million were saved due to the indigenous repair to the aircraft. Feasibility study of Gwadar deep waters shipyard was also completed.
The aircraft had been damaged in an attack by terrorists during on Kamra aeronautical complex.


Target Achieved, PAC produced 16 JF-17 aircrafts in 2015 | Daily Capital
 
I dont mean to insult the chinese but without the Pakistani input... the JF-17 would have been yet another Mig 21 clone or an exact copy of another existing Russian plane.
the outlook of the jet cant ben pinned down to a single plane .. there might be some similarities with say F-16 or Hornet and Mirage to some extent but most are unique to itself
And we certainly welcome such inputs. The more the merrier. :)
 
I dont mean to insult the chinese but without the Pakistani input... the JF-17 would have been yet another Mig 21 clone or an exact copy of another existing Russian plane.
the outlook of the jet cant ben pinned down to a single plane .. there might be some similarities with say F-16 or Hornet and Mirage to some extent but most are unique to itself

I agree. And I don't think the Chinese disagree either. I've seen some senior members on here and elsewhere openly stating and appreciating the fact that Pakistan helped them cross into the 4th gen 1990's (and onward aircraft designs). Their knowledge and expertise were limited to the Migs. And they didn't have an industry understanding how the Western hardware worked and sensors integrated.

The SU-27's (initial Chinese copy) were primarily just air-frames reverse engineered, those earlier batches were so manual that you'd feel like you are looking at WWII era flight instruments in a modern air-frame.

But if you see the new layouts and digitization and the sensor fusion of SU-27 B/D's, FC-20 and pretty much everything else they've been building, you see Western influence that came in through Pakistan and other sources also. But for sure, if there wasn't any Pakistani input, the JFT would've been a semi-digital version of the Mig-21, only with slightly different air-frame without the traditional Mig air inlet.
 
Your post is very vague and not structured at all.I'll reply elaborately in the evening



The problem with python(although I'm a huge fan of python and prefer python over matlab) is that it isn't a compiled language like c++.hence it is difficult to substitute c++ with python in embedded domain. But that's not to say there ain't any efforts,ESA is aggressively pushing micropython for their payload fairing embedded electronics. I use python a lot for my scientific computing and controlling various linux boards like raspberry pi,panda etc.
I infact deal with simulations of aircraft controls and I use python's scientific libraries like NUMPY,SCIPY,SYMPY,MATPLOTLIB,CONTROL.MATLAB etc etc

Well the Problem which you've highlighted is actually biggest plus point of python being OO Scripting Language. It shortens the overhead and a scale up as being a better High-level language than C++. The lines of code done in C++ is reduced to half the size in python. Another advantage of python is that the work done in Python and libraries being introduced utilizes up-to-date advancement in Computer sciences field. I am not from Control Systems background and neither have any technical expertise in it but I've also worked on NUMPY,SCIPY,MATPLOT.
It's a lot easier to work with Python to work with scientific libraries although i used them for different purpose. MATLAB is also discouraged worldwide too in comparison to Python. As python provides more open source free kind of environment. MATLAB contains an integrated IDE (it's easier but code portability is restricted) it is like coding in C++ using Microsoft Visual Studio and Python is like coding in C++ in Linux (Very basic Analogy)
 
If PAF has now produced 16th Jet than it means this is first complete squadron of Block II produced
 
I didnt know that one can determine if a plane has RSS simply by looking at the performance of the jet in airshows. However,in real academic terms you need to furnish literature or prove it using equations/engineering/logic etc
Yes, you can. Or at least able to guess with high confidence.

First...You need to tone down the technical words and phrases. What you posted, I can follow, but this is essentially a forum for the interested laymen who want to know the general principles involved, not the detailed math. You posted/spoke as someone who have never spent time in front of students/trainees new the subject.

Now...For the interested laymen, two significant items relating to the question of whether one can tell if an aircraft employs relaxed stability or not: Center of Lift (CL) and Center of Gravity (CG).

aircraft_center_lift_grav_zpsdeb5s1jz.jpg


How they are relative to each other in the longitudinal perspective on the aircraft dictate how the aircraft performs.

To keep things simple, the CL is the point where all aerodynamic effects are realized. We will leave out variables like stall conditions or supersonic flight for now. The CG is the final center of mass of the aircraft. We will leave out variables like persistent cargo such as mail which stays with the aircraft throughout flight, or fuel which is a consumable mass throughout flight.

Again: How the CG and CL are relative to each other in the longitudinal perspective on the aircraft dictate how the aircraft performs.

To continue keeping the language simple...

The CLift raises the aircraft while the CGrav tends to pull it down. Make sense. The closer they are to each other -- on the longitudinal perspective -- the more stable the aircraft. This is what airliners want. We do not want to shake the passengers in flight.

If the CLift is behind the CGrav, the aircraft have a tendency to rotate downwards. This is desirable and again, this what airliners want -- the airliner to try to remain in straight level flight as much as possible. The degree of how far back the CLift from the CGrav is for a much more detailed discussion that is beyond the scope of this thread.

If the CGrav is behind the CLift, flight begins to get dangerous for the human pilot. Most people do not know this, but at least US pilots know that the Wright Flyer was a PITCH ONLY unstable design. It was only the Flyer's low speed that allowed the Wright Brothers to have effective human control of the Flyer. Because the CGrav tends to pull the aircraft down, and if the CGrav is behind the CLift, this configuration will have the aircraft tends to nose up, and this is why flight begins to get dangerous for the human pilot.

So how can we tell if an aircraft have relaxed stability, at least in the pitch axis, from watching it fly ? By noting the CONTROL surfaces when the aircraft pitches nose up to climb.

On an aircraft, everything provides lift, but some provides more than others. So in keeping with simple language, we will call the main wings 'lift surfaces' and others as 'control surfaces'. Make sense because the main wings provides the majority of the lifting forces. Smaller surfaces such as the canards, horizontal tail stabilators, and the vertical stabilators are called 'control surfaces' because their main task is to redirect the nose's attitude.

On a pitch stable aircraft, its CLift is behind its CGrav, so when it pitches up to climb, its horizontal tail stabs usually remains deflected, meaning away from parallel with the airframe, to keep the aircraft nose up.

On a pitch unstable aircraft, its CGrav is behind its CLift, so when it pitches up to climb, its horizontal tail stabs deflects to provide an initial nose up change, then return to parallel with the airframe, but the aircraft remains nose up to climb.

There is no need to get detailed with trims and damper operations in this maneuver. Trims and damper operations exists in every maneuver anyway.

Observance of the control surfaces in flight to guess if an aircraft have at least pitch relaxed stability is difficult, but it can be done. That is why there are so many cameras of many types at airshows. High frame rates will help display surface deflections at time intervals of milliseconds. If the video shows the jet remains nose up but the horizontal stabs is parallel to the body, taking trim deflections into consideration, odds are very good that the jet have at least pitch relaxed stability. The jet is simply moving too fast and maneuvers too quick in execution for the human eye to discern.

Mr. Mishra doubts that the JF-17 have pitch relaxed stability since no one have provided documentation for that claim. I will leave it up to the Pakistani members here to take on that challenge. In my case, from my yrs on the F-16, it is difficult to see why would the JF-17's designers moved away from the tried-and-trued computer assisted pneudraulics systems and use the more complex and costly FBW method if the JF-17 does not have pitch relaxed stability.

That said...It does not mean we cannot use the FBW method to control flight. In theory, we can have the WW II era B-17 bomber fully FBW and in practice, it would be easy to do so. All we need is an eccentric billionaire.
 
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Yes, you can. Or at least able to guess with high confidence.

First...You need to tone down the technical words and phrases. What you posted, I can follow, but this is essentially a forum for the interested laymen who want to know the general principles involved, not the detailed math. You posted/spoke as someone who have never spent time in front of students/trainees new the subject.

Mr. Mishra doubts that the JF-17 have pitch relaxed stability since no one have provided documentation for that claim. I will leave it up to the Pakistani members here to take on that challenge. In my case, from my yrs on the F-16, it is difficult to see why would the JF-17's designers moved away from the tried-and-trued computer assisted pneudraulics systems and use the more complex and costly FBW method if the JF-17 does not have pitch relaxed stability.

That said...It does not mean we cannot use the FBW method to control flight. In theory, we can have the WW II era B-17 bomber fully FBW and in practice, it would be easy to do so. All we need is an eccentric billionaire.

Thank you Gambit. Precisely what I was trying to tell these guys without getting too technical and using text book engineering terms which laymen have no ability to understand and care for. But how dare someone challenges any perceived theories of Indians and Pakistanis on this forum!!

@amardeep mishra @MilSpec @Spectre @Irfan Baloch : check out Gambit's response above!! Wish people act mature on here and not waste hours and hours in childish drama!
 

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