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India raises concern over Russian attack copter sale to Pakistan

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I'll be called delusional for this post no doubt, but connect the dots, look at the big picture and it is certainly something to consider......

No , actually delusional was the part about the current deal having Indian blessings . :D You have posted some of the most finest rationalizations , I have seen in a very very long time , almost as old as my joining date on this forum , I must say . Add in the delusions of grandeur and this becomes great entertainment , this isn't a discussion going on , any longer .
 
I am aware of the last few deals that you'll have with Russia before you'll ditch them about 75%. Trust me on that and they already know it. Like I said to your other cousin from India. Let's not waste disk space on the forum. Let's see how many more deals with Pakistan will be inked in the next few years. In 5 years, if you don't see significant enough major deals ......you post it for me and I'll quit coming to this forum??
Learn to swallow defeat and get over fake pride given to you in the shape of economy at the cost of US worker's jobs. You should show loyalty to someone. The Russians feel betrayed and the US will feel that way in the next ten years. Its great to have national pride but you have to live with the world. Sooner or later, the other party finds out how Indian loyalty works and they'll back off. So yea, let's wait for 5 years. I'll stand by my words.
US workers jobs, and what not means nothing in this world, India didn't force US companies to open plants in China or India. As I said before national interest trumps more than anything else. India is no way uneasy with deal, case in point not a single Indian government official commented on it, rather it was the Russian who were quick to approach India regarding this. Which again shows, that they are aware that they can't be on bad terms with India.
 
And you think that other nations will just leave it at that. While we are at it lets take China into account since some members brought it in here. The bigger question is will China allow Pakistan and Russia to jeopardize its deal..

Like I said, let's not waste Oxygen and Disk Space. Give it 5 years and if you don't see significant weapons deals between the Russians and the Pakistanis, start a thread, call me out and I'll accept defeat and won't ever come on this forum. You've been ditched by the Russians. Now its just like friends with benefits. The strategic crap is gone. You pay them, they'll give you stuff, Pakistan pays them, they'll give them stuff too. No need to bring China because you are having tummy aches on Russian move. Let's discuss this in 5 years and see what happens :)
 
Such perfect analogies! @Aeronaut What about adding an age limit for new members? Kid , Russians are buying 60+ upgraded Hinds , not phasing them out and please do not ask for links , let Google be your best friend .
can you give me the links?

Mil Mi-24 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In October 2007, the Russian Air Force announced it would replace its Mi-24 fleet with Mi-28Ns and Ka-52s by 2015.[5][6] However due to economics the Russian Air Force will upgrade some Mi-24s and keep them in service past 2015, as will the Russian Navy

refer 5 and 6 link in Wikipedia....

@members what should the minimum IQ level of members to understand things why and how its happening?
@secure , lower age high IQ is more desire then aged one with lower IQ
 
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Oh yea, Brazil have heat suppression system after some modifications, you better be run away to mountains.

123-13-FAB-AH2-Sabre_13_resized.jpg


Armament consists of the twin-barrel GSh-23V 23mm cannon on a chin-mounted moving turret. It can be armed with a variety of unguided rockets, Ataka anti-tank missiles, and Igla-V air-to-air missiles for anti-air and self-defence. Other defensive improvements include the heat-suppressing exhaust boxes, countermeasures system and in terms of armour protection and robustness the Mi-35M presents a quantum leap in survivability compared to its predecessor in FAB service.


India has more advance version ,

If you see India has installed the Heat suppression system in exhaust to deter what seeking missiles.... like this India has many move advance system it is MI-35. but India is replacing it.

 
@Oscar I believe now is the time each and every useless indian post should be removed.

Why Pakistani members keeps on replying to indian concerns giving importance to usual useless posts no need to justify it to them.
 
@Abingdonboy

Don't be naive, there are no permeant friends, only permanent interests and are you seriously telling me receiving 10s of billions from India and ties with a upward power would be put on the line by Russia, and for what? Pakistan?

I guess that too many people do not understand yet, the fact that Russia has more to gain, geopolitically as well as financially from the Muslim world than from the Hindu world (India). Financially speaking, like most Hindu point to, India can not match the amounts of money for weapon purchases from Russia poured in by some Muslim countries as a whole, and that , Russia understands very well. Even SA is negotiating a 12 billion $ Russian weapons deal, Add Algeria with 25-30 billion$, plus many other billions from others, plus the potential influence on still others, and you can get the Idea.
So, you sentence is correct up till the point when you say "for what?", my post is then your answer.
 
@members what should the minimum IQ level of members to understand things why and how its happening?

I personally will allow all little kids , who can search on Google properly .

Implementation of Bondarev’s promise would give Russia 130 Mi-28s by 2020, alongside 140+ Ka-52s. That would more than replace the current Mi-24 Hind fleet, and Russia has also ordered 60+ modernized Mi-35M Hinds to help fill in the gaps.-Defense Industry Daily Russia Improving its Mi-28 Attack Helicopter Fleet

You cant even seem to distinguish between the old Mi24 and the modernized versions . Any more .303 analogies left?
 
Rather it was the Russian who were quick to approach India regarding this. Which again shows, that they are aware that they can't be on bad terms with India.

Yea, sure did was Russians. Told you to F*ck off and reminded you what you guys did with the Rafale deal when they offered you sweet deals for SU-30s and SU-35's. That was the game changer. Show me ONE proof that a senior level Russian even care to tell you the word "Sorry". Its called "a*ss handed on a platter". Don't be disloyal and piss off people that do so much for you. ......this was a classic world politics ditch. Life moves on, you lost Russia as a strategic ally. Now they'll be just as much of an all of Pakistan as anyone. They know that between them and the Indians, its four more deals and then India will show them the door. So here's proactive politics for ya! Enjoy
 
With this , I will call it a night .

Indian diplomats have reminded their Russian counterparts of very strong statements made by Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin on October 14, 2012, during his official visit to India for talks with then-Indian External Affairs Minister SM Krishna. Rogozin had told the Indian media to “spit on my face” if Russia were to arm India’s enemies.

Sample the highly publicized remarks of Rogozin in New Delhi: “You must understand that we do not deal with your enemies. We don't deliver any arms to them.... If you see otherwise, you may spit on my face.”


India fuming over Russia lifting its Pakistan arms embargo, what next? — RT Op-Edge
 
It doesn't concern India since the equipment in those are already being phased out. The MKI will be brought to the same level as the Mig 35 which was offered to India.
Is that possible? They say that the SU-35 is a totally new platform, frame, avionics, radar engine,..etc
 
Yea, sure did was Russians. Told you to F*ck off and reminded you what you guys did with the Rafale deal when they offered you sweet deals for SU-30s and SU-35's. That was the game changer. Show me ONE proof that a senior level Russian even care to tell you the word "Sorry". Its called "a*ss handed on a platter". Don't be disloyal and piss off people that do so much for you. ......this was a classic world politics ditch. Life moves on, you lost Russia as a strategic ally. Now they'll be just as much of an all of Pakistan as anyone. They know that between them and the Indians, its four more deals and then India will show them the door. So here's proactive politics for ya! Enjoy
They sure came fast to talk India about this deal without India asking about it which proves that know where the true interest of their nation is. If Pakistan feels happy about getting decade old technology which Russia itself is retiring and feels it as a victory then I don't know what to say.
 
Indonesia's Mi-35's heat suppression system but don't know why these Indian with some low IQ-level think only India have most advances Mi-35 than other countries.

MI-35+TNI.jpg


Mi_35_hind_heli.jpg


Mi_35_Russian_Attack_Helicopter_6.jpeg


article-gallery-big-1365669826_362.jpg
 
Russia’s Proposed Arms Sale To Pakistan: Deciphering ‘True Lies’ – Analysis

June 20 2014

June 20, 2014 Sourabh Jyoti Sharma 3 Comments
By Sourabh Jyoti Sharma


In early June this year, Russia decided to lift its self-imposed arms embargo on Pakistan. By this Russia has sent the signal that it is opening up to negotiate with Pakistan to resume supplying military hardware to it – a clear violation of its gentleman’s agreement with India not to supply any arms to its troublesome neighbour. Questions will surely be arising on the logic or factors behind this sudden U-turn on Russia’s part.

Why is Moscow suddenly warming up to Islamabad, forgetting its age-old friend New Delhi? Or is it just a ‘bargaining tool’ in Russia’s diplomatic somersault to nudge India, which in recent years has been acquiring its arsenals from non-Russian nations that rival it in global armament supplies, to change its current defence procurement policy that Moscow finds is becoming unfavourable to it.

Or does an ‘arms embargo on Pakistan’ by Russia even exist in the first place? Because there is neither any Russian official document nor even any diplomatic communiqué reaffirming its so-called “self-imposed policy” i.e. banning arms supply to Pakistan.

Without dwelling much on the past of the Cold War era Moscow-Islamabad ties, it can be said safely that truly there didn’t exist any ‘strategic’ aspect via-a-vis defence in that. This can’t be given the colour of New Delhi’s complex sensitivities involved in helping to arm its sworn enemy – a virtual taboo for the Muscovites even to think of.

Russia could at best say a customary “Hello’ to Pakistani mandarins stationed in its Moscow embassy. :D Shaking hands without shaking India’s reposed faith in Moscow that come what may its “true friend” will never allow India’s own external security to be put at risk by arming Pakistan, even if such defence deals seem more profitable than the ones with India.

On its part, Pakistan has already got a flourishing joint defence R&D with China, and through it Pakistan has been augmenting its arsenal, which include FC-20, AL-31F, JF-17 Thunder fighter planes, at par with others.

China, which is a master expert in ‘reverse engineering’ (copy cats) to re-produce the ‘duplicate or fake’ version of the same, has been acquiring Russian armaments like Sukhoi-27, Sukhoi-30, Mig-29 etc powered by the legendary RD-33 engine. And in turn its ‘reverse engineered’ ‘Made in China’ fighter planes are sold to Pakistan.

Russia has strongly protested against violation of intellectual property rights (IPR), patents etc by China with impunity and threatened to halt all agreed defence sales to Beijing, unless it mends its ‘duplication’ trickery in the name of just doing ‘reverse engineering’!

What China, in turn conveyed to Russia is not clear, but most certainly it has sent the message to Pakistan that Islamabad can no longer rely upon just China-made military hardware which is quite inferior to the Russian ones in terms of quality cum agility and scouted for other ‘reliable sources’ to be armed with.

This is the main reason why Islamabad is suddenly warming up to Moscow and why Moscow, finding itself relegated to a secondary position in the current wish list of India’s arms procurement agenda, wants to use this ‘Pak-send’ opportunity as a warning to make New Delhi ‘redo’ its policy of gradually reducing Russian origin inventories in its arsenal by diversifying it with inventories from US, France, UK, Israel and Japan.

Russia is already upset with India over losing the fight in the race for the multi-billion defence deal, its biggest ever since independence, for acquiring the ‘best fit deal’ medium multi role combat aircraft (MMRCA). Russia was also one of the final contenders in the ambitious MMRCA deal, pitted against the EU, France and Sweden, but lost to France’s Rafael fighter jet, which is India’s final MMRCA choice. Russia has lost the deal in spite of using all its resources to lobby with New Delhi.

The loss of MMRCA deal to France has irked the Russian establishment, though India tried its best to persuade its all-weather ally. If that wasn’t enough, India’s decision to buy US armaments, like J-130 Super Hercules, Globemaster J-17, Pi-8 long range maritime reconnaissance jet etc have acted in the manner of rubbing salt on Russia’s wounded prestige over losing the MMRCA deal.

Moreover, India’s decision to buy US-made Apache fighter helicopters from Israel, negotiating for buying amphibious fighter aircraft from Japan – all these have been seen by Russia as India’s move to relegate Moscow from its earlier ‘first choice’ position to a ‘subordinating secondary’ position.

Hence, by announcing lifting of arms embargo on Pakistan, Russia wants to send a clear signal to India that if it can ‘redo’ its defence procurement policy, then Russia can also ‘rethink’ its global arms sale policy. A tit for tat!

Now, where does one proceed from this? Will Russia “really” resort to selling arms to Pakistan, setting aside India’s genuine security concerns?

Although Russia still thinks its ‘anti-Pakistan’ act during the 1971 India-Pakistan war, as a supporting war ally of India, is still cause of diplomatic embarrassment, but its move to sell Russian defence products to Pakistan is not a ‘new’ phenomenon, as is being led to believe by ‘misinformed’ opinions of some strategic pundits.

As Russia’s Ambassador to India, Alexander Kadakin said, “We have supplied arms to Pakistan since early 1960s. This (lifting arms embargo’) was a sheer case of misreporting and over-reacting”.

Notably, Russia had supplied Pakistan with Mi-17 civilian aircraft in the past, and the ongoing talks for selling Mi-35 Hind or Mi-28 Havoc attack helicopters were only in the initial stage. Incidentally, two of Russia’s biggest arms export wings, state-run Rosoboronexport as well as Rostec, have denied any move to resume selling combat/offensive military hardware to Pakistan.

Re-emphasizing Russia’s long-standing strategic ties with India, Kadakin has said that Moscow will not do anything detrimental to its deep ties with New Delhi, as a partner by its side in fighting anti-terror campaigns. Ironically, it was Rostec’s CEO Sergey Chemezov who while on his visit to New Delhi in early June this year, gave an ‘impression’ that Russia has lifted its self-imposed embargo on arms sale to Pakistan, but later denied that such an embargo was ever in place.

Both India and Russia enjoy mutual trust in their long-standing strategic relations and both are all-weather allies. There is an unofficial agreement existing on both sides that neither India nor Russia will ever resort to such things that are mutually considered by both as sounding the death knell to their deep ties of strategic engagement. India’s move to diversify its defence arsenal is guided by sheer professionalism, and Russia is mature enough to understand this, as a global arms dealer.

Moreover, today over 75% of India’s military hardware across the three wings i.e. army, navy and air force, are of Russian origin, and thus India will always be dependent on Russian supply of spare parts for keeping them operational. Regular up-gradation of weaponry has been done with Russian cooperation.

Pushing indigenization fast forward, both India and Russia are jointly manufacturing multi-role military transport helicopters, the fifth generation stealth fighter jet (PAKFA or Sukhoi T-50), Kudankulum II nuclear reactor, various defence and space projects etc. At various international forums like UN, WTO etc Russia and India always stand in mutual support on issues concerning them both. While Russia vetoed many anti-India UN resolutions, India also strongly opposed many anti-Russia proposals at UN.

Hence, the bottom-line – besides a ‘jubilant’ Pakistan and its ‘misinformed’ think-tanks’ ‘irrational exuberance’ over ‘Russia’s proposed arms sale’, nothing much should be read into a move which is denied by Russian arms exporters and its ambassador to India.

At best, Russia can sell non-lethal civilian products to Pakistan, as it did in the past, but strictly not any lethal military hardware (like Mi-35, Mi-28) to India’s arch enemy, as a ‘disillusioned’ Pakistani military establishment has been made to believe. The move is nothing but Russia’s ‘diplomatic manoeuver’ to make the new Indian dispensation under Prime Minister Modi agree to ink more defence deals cum joint manufacturing agreements with Moscow in future. Thus ensuring its predominant ‘first priority’ position in India’s global defence procurement-cum joint manufacturing deals, forever.

A foolish Pakistan could not decipher this ‘diplomatic teaser’ from Russia but an intelligent India can, because it knows well that while dealing with any regime in New Delhi, Moscow will have no other choice but to be solely guided by a proverbial ‘Hobson’s Choice’ – not to do anything threatening India’s own security – or the age-old Indo-Russian ties will cease to exist for good. This is the ‘real truth’ regarding “Russia’s proposed arms sale to Pakistan”. All else is mere ‘true lies’!

This article also appeared at South Asia Monitor.
 
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