HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore

[janon]

[q


Well, in that case, getting ruled by Muslims...for atleast 500 years!...and getting your civilization, temples, and 'gods' destroyed by Muslim invaders..was a bigger humiliation. Also, the fact, that your hindu women were raped day and night by Muslims...and Muslim invaders like Tamerlane have explicitly written that only "hindu-women" were raped and those Hindus who joined Islam and "became our brothers" were treated as "we treat our brothers"

And no, getting "escorted" back to your nation by enemy planes is much, much more humiliating.

Every single of those humiliations happened to Pakistanis as well. Or you think they bypassed pakistan and invaded India? Most parts of today's India were not ruled by invaders, but every inch of today's pakistan was.

And by the way, some of us think that barbaric practices like raping women day and night are a matter of shame, not pride for those who do it. It is amusing that people like you boast that your "religion of peace" has practiced such barbarisms throughout its history.

Tamerlane was not pakistani, btw. All the invaders were turks and afghans. And before that, arabs conqued and plundered today's pakistan, and your ancestors. Just because you adopted their religion does not make you the conquerer rather than the conquered. Most parts of India remained unconquered by tamerlane or arabs.

I knew that you would start boasting of turkic invaders when your country's humiliation 40 years back is pointed out. Pity that a country has to escape humiliation by taking pride in somebody else's barbarities.

And no, our MKIs were not "escorted". These are fantasy stories made up to soothe the ego of pakistanis after their murderers were yet again caught doing a terrorist act, their only export to the world. On the other hand, your F-16s fleeing in panic during an actual war, leaving our migs and jaguars free to merrily pound your grouund forces and supply lines, is recorded history admitted by your pilots.

 

[JohnyD]

In which case let us reduce our aircraft strength to 10 aircrafts. That should make the maintenance easier.

Large numbers provide a quality of their own. 300 Su-30MKI, 69 Mig 29, 48 Mirage 2000, 110 Jaguars, 45 Mig 29K (Navy) and 800 LCA will provide enough protection till the PAK FA and AMCA arrives.

Best part would be we get to keep the precious foreign exchange in India and recirculate that 20 billion $ to vitalize Indian economy including our Aerospace Industry.

as far as precious foreign exchange is concerned, try and understand we are not paying just for 126 rafale...its a huge investment to boost our local industry (offset clause) and to aquire sophisticated western tech...I dont think there would be an another deal like Rafale in future... so its a investment for better future...

I dont mind 800 LCA...my concern was you being comparing 126 vs 800...if you go by your formula, we wil end up having thosands of fighter jets...and dont forget, LCA is to replace aging Migs, we cant compare it with Rafale!

 

[AUz]

Hmmm yes even I had doubts regarding the combat radius but I guess that has to do with what PAF, IAF want to do with the planes. PAF plans jf-17 as a do all fighter (including deep strikes)and it must have traded some capabilities to get that kind of endurance(even gripen has a combat radius of 800km) and considering the poor fuel efficiency of the RD compared to the 404.
And regarding the under powered part I dont see how 1.07 t/w ratio as under powered and especially compared with the RD(which everyone knows is less efficienct,no fadec,less responsive than the 404).

Well, RD 93 is an upgrade of RD 33 which has been powering Mig 29s all over the world, including in IAF...I'm not sure if American engine is significantly superior...might be some difference, but negligible...

I don't know where you get the less responsive thing...

Also, I don't see any trade-offs in JF-17 uptil now...

It is has more service ceiling than LCA (it means it can fly higher..6,000 ft. higher than LCA's maximum flight height), both aircrafts have same speed (Mach 1.6 to 1.8), and JF-17 also has more range 3,450+ km vs 3000km for LCA....JF-17 can carry 4 tons of pay load (4,000 kg) ...I am not sure of LCA's payload...probably there is a difference? :/

 

[AMCA]

WOW. 26 million $ for a LCA !

It can fly further than the Mirage 2000 and carry slightly lesser load. But we pay 2.4 billion $ just to upgrade the 48 Mirage @ 45 million $ per upgrade to make it as powerful as LCA.

2.4 billion $ would get us 92 Brand new LCA in addition to the older 48 Mirage 2000

15 billion will get us 575 LCA as opposed to the 126 Rafale

The actual Rafale deal will cost us anything between 20-25 Billion $ which can actually buy us between 770 - 960 LCA's

If we pitch 126 Rafale against 800 LCA who would win the battle ?

Come on Dude.. Even if IAF has 1000+ LCA's it wouldnt be an alternative to the class of Fighter that Rafale is. LCA Tejas is a Point Defence Fighter and cannot operate beyond 300-400 Km's from its base radius without a mid air refuel.

The only advantage that LCA might have over Rafale is the amount of sorties it can handle a day. While Tejas can handle 3-4 flawless combat missions a day, the Rafale can only have 1-2 which is of couse because of its sheer complexity.

 

[AUz]

First of all The JFT costs pak AF just 15 million for Block1.
The JFT Block 2 costs somewhere b/w 20-25 million.
This article says that Teja costs IAF abt 26 million and then claims Teja is superior which is again pure false.
The market prize for JFT B1 is 20-25 million that this article claims to be the prize for PAF's domestic production.

Indians will be indians

LCA is a lost project against JF-17 Thunder now.

Massive hurdles and put offs in the LCA project has inflated his price..and thats very normal.

JF-17 block II with Inflight refueling, and superior integrated and improved avionics will still cost less than LCA block 1...

 

[holysaturn]

Very good move by HAL to maintain the supply chain because once lost it almost never comes back as boeing put it.Good for the industry good for the IAF coffers.

 

[Manvantaratruti]

It's baffling that they don't order more Mk1 and get rid of all the vintage aircrafts. That mmove itself can save a lot of money, by not having to operate so many types. Mig-21s, 27s and early jaguars should go. However, we do need the Rafale and MKI, we cannot order a thousand LCAs and be done.

BTW you might want to change your avatar, which is a known fake pic.

Mig 21 and 27 are already on their way out. Jaguars are upgraded and will serve for a decade at least. They are great ground support aircrafts.

Su30mki is maintenance intensive so that might limits its very large numbers. LCA really has to fill in the gaps.

10 years back Rafale made sense, not so much now and certainly not 10 years from now which is when the final aircraft will enter IAF service.

 

[holysaturn]

LCA is a lost project against JF-17 Thunder now.

Massive hurdles and put offs in the LCA project has inflated his price..and thats very normal.

JF-17 block II with Inflight refueling, and superior integrated and improved avionics will still cost less than LCA block 1...

Can you enlighten us about the superior avionics,4 axis fly by wire,composites,navigation equipment,radar,HMD in the block 2 please I inclined to know about these. And can give us a source where PAF and PAC confirmed agreement for large nos of jf-17s.

 

[janon]

Mig 21 and 27 are already on their way out. Jaguars are upgraded and will serve for a decade at least. They are great ground support aircrafts.

Su30mki is maintenance intensive so that might limits its very large numbers. LCA really has to fill in the gaps.

10 years back Rafale made sense, not so much now and certainly not 10 years from now which is when the final aircraft will enter IAF service.

And that is precisely what it is doing. We cannot however have an air force of 800 LCAs, that would be very inefficient. That's 800 pilots and support crew as well. One pilot in one Rafale can bring in a lot more value for money than three pilots in three LCAs.

Note that I'm not arguing against the LCA, and really hope to see it serve in large numbers. But it has to be in addition to heavier aircrafts, not instead of them.

Unfortunately, the bisons are now expected to serve till 2025. Ludicrous, when the LCA mk1 is superior in every respect, and homegrown. I would have loved to see 150 LCA mk1, and 150 mk2 to get rid of all 21/27s and later the jaguars.

And note that we are upgrading mirages at twice the price of a brand new LCA, when the LCA is comparable to the mirage in most respects, and superior to it in some respects (and admittedly inferior in a few).

 

[Manvantaratruti]

as far as precious foreign exchange is concerned, try and understand we are not paying just for 126 rafale...its a huge investment to boost our local industry (offset clause) and to aquire sophisticated western tech...I dont think there would be an another deal like Rafale in future... so its a investment for better future...

I dont mind 800 LCA...my concern was you being comparing 126 vs 800...if you go by your formula, we wil end up having thosands of fighter jets...and dont forget, LCA is to replace aging Migs, we cant compare it with Rafale!

I am not interested in comparing LCA with the Rafale.

I am interested in building a credible IAF and at the same time build up the aerospace Industry in India and revitalizing our economy.

Each DRDO AEW&C costs us 100 million. Offer Indian built AEW&C aircraft to each LCA squadron along with the necessary Air to Air refuelers. How would they be any less than a Rafale ? If anything they would be more flexible and more lethal.

I work in the aerospace industry and I can assure you Rafale is NOT going to give any great boost to our Aerospace Industry. At least nothing that 800 LCA will not provide.

 

[45'22']

And that is precisely what it is doing. We cannot however have an air force of 800 LCAs, that would be very inefficient. That's 800 pilots and support crew as well. One pilot in one Rafale can bring in a lot more value for money than three pilots in three LCAs.

Note that I'm not arguing against the LCA, and really hope to see it serve in large numbers. But it has to be in addition to heavier aircrafts, not instead of them.

Unfortunately, the bisons are now expected to serve till 2025. Ludicrous, when the LCA mk1 is superior in every respect, and homegrown. I would have loved to see 150 LCA mk1, and 150 mk2 to get rid of all 21/27s and later the jaguars.

And note that we are upgrading mirages at twice the price of a brand new LCA, when the LCA is comparable to the mirage in most respects, and superior to it in some respects (and admittedly inferior in a few).

why to waste money on mk1.......let the bison serve till 2025.......in the mean time.......if mk 2 gets aesa with increased range,better avionics.....it will be rather good to induct 300 mk2's which would be 4.5 gen fighters...........

IAF is not in a hurry.........but we do need rafale's for deep strike capablity

 

[AUz]

Every single of those humiliations happened to Pakistanis as well. Or you think they bypassed pakistan and invaded India? Most parts of today's India were not ruled by invaders, but every inch of today's pakistan was.

There was no Pakistan back then, only hindustan. Hindus got r@ped..shameless hindus that is. My ancestors, who were courageous and dignified, stood up for their rights and LEFT a barbaric system that divided humanity into castes...made humans "untouchable garbage", and told women to burn alive when their husband dies. My ancestors accepted the system of equality and justice..which did not divide humans into sub-human categories.

And by the way, some of us think that barbaric practices like raping women day and night are a matter of shame, not pride for those who do it. It is amusing that people like you boast that your "religion of peace" has practiced such barbarisms throughout its history.

I hope you would think that. Raping Kashmiri Muslim women goes well with indians and your army.

Tamerlane was not pakistani, btw. All the invaders were turks and afghans. And before that, arabs conqued and plundered today's pakistan, and your ancestors. Just because you adopted their religion does not make you the conquerer rather than the conquered. Most parts of India remained unconquered by tamerlane or arabs.

Current Pakistan is composed, other than of Punjabis, of tribes and peoples who conquered Delhi and defeated indian armies...Search of Khilazai Pushtun tribes. So yes, Pakistanis DID rule and/or defeated indians in the past--again and again..but then again, it is stupid to use the word 'Pakistan' since nation-state is a recent concept.

I knew that you would start boasting of turkic invaders when your country's humiliation 40 years back is pointed out. Pity that a country has to escape humiliation by taking pride in somebody else's barbarities.

And no, it is REAL humiliation for you to have signed an agreement of stalemate with a nation SEVEN-TIMES smaller than you.

In all previous wars, W.Pakistan (today's Pakistan) defeated a larger nation and forced it to sign stalemate with it...

In 1948 , Pakistanis got THE MOST strategically important lands in Kashmir. Pakistan captured population centers of Gilgit , Skardu etc and secured access to central Asia...Cutting India off from Central Asian route..and hence containing poor indians in useless gigantic plains .... Where India would've got entire Kashmir due to Hindu treachery ...it only got some parts..and that too which are strategically of very less importance...and made even less important due to Indo-Pak water-accords ..

In 1965 , Pakistan defeated Indian attack on Lahore city and forced indians to retreat , captured strategically important Indian towns like Khem Kharan , captured strategically important Indian supply-lines like Muna Bao railway station , PAF just badly blasted the a$$ of five times larger IAF , and all this eventually forced India to face the humiliation of signing an agreement of stalemate with SEVEN TIMES smaller nation-that was badly outgunned and outnumbered during the war... Your OWN media back then called it as "giving a walkover to Pakistan."

In 1999 Kargil war , just 5000 Pakistani troops+fighters got 30,000 indian soldiers with their pants down .... We slaughtered the f*ck outa your poor troops...At the end of the war , Pakistan captured strategically important Indian heights such as point 5353 , Dalu Nag , Saddle Ridge etc etc..We STILL hold these Indian territories ... We over-look NH-1 and Indian supplies to Siachen...

So in every war against W.Pakistan (Today's Pakistan) , Indian forces have faced humiliation from SEVEN TIMES smaller nation..When indians faced their EQUALS...they were a$$-raped by Chinese But Pakistanis faced SEVEN TIMES larger nation and stood their ground pretty...

180 million Pakistanis contained 1200 million indians ...and THAT is humiliation.

Bangladesh was a CIVIL WAR and your OWN general said that if wasn't a military victory of india

And no, our MKIs were not "escorted". These are fantasy stories made up to soothe the ego of pakistanis after their murderers were yet again caught doing a terrorist act, their only export to the world. On the other hand, your F-16s fleeing in panic during an actual war, leaving our migs and jaguars free to merrily pound your grouund forces and supply lines, is recorded history admitted by your pilots.

They were escorted. Senior members here have confirmed this. Even indian members who have connections in military confirmed that Su-30s entered Pak's airspace and were locked-on by F-16s immediately and were "let to return to india while the beep of F-16 lock ringing all the way" ....

And indian migs never dared to cross LoC...you bombed Pakistani soldiers that were in indian territory. Big deal?

When indians did cross LoC however, they got shot down right away

 

[Manvantaratruti]

Come on Dude.. Even if IAF has 1000+ LCA's it wouldnt be an alternative to the class of Fighter that Rafale is. LCA Tejas is a Point Defence Fighter and cannot operate beyond 300-400 Km's from its base radius without a mid air refuel.

The only advantage that LCA might have over Rafale is the amount of sorties it can handle a day. While Tejas can handle 3-4 flawless combat missions a day, the Rafale can only have 1-2 which is of couse because of its sheer complexity.

I disagree. Indian built AEW&C along with LCA and Refuelers will not only cost less than Rafale, but will be more lethal.

 

[kaykay]

Mig 21 and 27 are already on their way out. Jaguars are upgraded and will serve for a decade at least. They are great ground support aircrafts.

Su30mki is maintenance intensive so that might limits its very large numbers. LCA really has to fill in the gaps.

10 years back Rafale made sense, not so much now and certainly not 10 years from now which is when the final aircraft will enter IAF service.

no doubt LCA should be inducted in big numbers but no where close to 800. That would be so inefficient. We need aircrafts of all 3 categories. Few hundred heavy aircrafts, few hundred medium and similary few hundred light aircrafts for different kind of operations.

 

[Thorough Pro]

If Tejas is comparable to Mirage-2000 @ $26M a pop, only an idiot would pay $45M a piece to upgrade a 33 year old Mirage, unless that near obsolete Mirage is still better than brand new Tejas.

The Tejas Mark I will be one of the world's most affordable fighters in its class. Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources tell Business Standard that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has quoted a price of Rs 162 crore per aircraft for the first 20 Tejas fighters that have begun production in Bangalore. That translates into a dollar price of approximately $26 million a fighter.

This is a fraction of the cost of the comparable Mirage-2000, which was bought relatively cheaply in the 1980s, but is currently being upgraded for Rs 280 crore ($45 million) per fighter. On December 19, 2011, Defence Minister A K Antony had told Parliament that Thales would get Euro 1.4 billion (Rs 11,830 crore today) for upgrading the Indian Air Force (IAF) fleet of 49 Mirage-2000 fighters, while HAL would get Rs 2,020 crore, i.e., a total of Rs 13,850 crore. Since the upgrade will only be completed by 2021, that cost would rise further if the rupee falls.