Revenge by Pakistani Pashtuns: Private war breaks out on Pak-Afghan border

[friendly_troll96]

@haviZsultan


After reading this comment, I'm sh!t scared for you dude.

One of my late friend had composed a book on these norms and values related to pashtunz society. the pakhtunz.

he published his book and died in London after its publication within a month.His name was Ifzal shah from boka swabi

 

[notsuperstitious]

This thread is totally twilight zone.

 

[bronxbull]

haven't seen him or Ahmad post in a while, not sure where they went?

as for sitting in indian laps --- the indians themselves would be interested to know what the anti-Pakistan Afghans think.....

to them, anything non-Afghan or Pakistan-related is "hindu", "black" , "inferior" and "dal-khor"

i wonder how majority indian would feel about these designations




bad.....and its freezing now so haven't been motivated to look

plus im getting my arse kicked by student loans repayment.

we know what they really think but we also know what punjabis think of dark coloured sindhis/mohajjirs?

no sweat.

Secur I just wanted to clarify this point. I think you know my background... if not you can look through my previous posts to find out that I am a wannabe Pashtun gradually adopting the language and culture who has studied them and now knows about their history more than Pashtuns do themselves. I love Pashtuns, want to be like them, true but you don't know the whole story.

Our grandfather came to Pakistan a little late when most families had already moved. My father was a kid and so were most brothers and everyone else. Our mothers side stayed in Lucknow though-always supported Pakistan even till very late. Only now her brother has turned Indian.

You would have noticed I say us when I condemn Muhajirs. That is because I am still loyal to the Firangi mahal house and the Ansari family from which I belong. We are a Muhajir family basically with perhaps unproven, limited Pashtun links, though no one really speaks Pashto amongst us and there is no proof of the past family legends-those also very few people know. I insist that instead of becoming a separate community we should have done everything in our power to integrate as Pakistanis and only that and if not that... into the various ethnic groups already present. By not doing so and becoming an ethnic group (God knows how this came to be) we exacerbated ethnic tensions. Later we formed a political party... is it coincidence that crime went up the roof in the late 1980's? An Indian member made a very valid point. How come the communities that migrated to India (Sikhs and Hindus) didn't become Muhajirs? Why did we adopt a term that is basically derogatory for ourselves... and we can't say other ethnic groups don't want to accept us, did we try? Its just an escape.

And that was how it was supposed to be. Jinnah referred to the refugees as Muhajirs at times but not once did he suggest that it would be permanent setup. It was basically a term used till the Muhajirs settled down and Jinnah has made numerous speeches that he expected they would later merge with the respective communities to make a very homogenous setup (this has happened to an extent for those who moved to places other than Karachi and I have a number of friends like these who do not call themselves Muhajir despite having crossed the border)... Instead we made ourselves into an elite community that wanted all the power... separate from the rest.

You can look through my older posts and you will find posts about how close our links to Lucknow, Hyderabad and Delhi are... since we moved late. There are also a number of people I know who were killed... some in the aftermath of gujarat riots, (no we didn't move after that-for some reason borders were sealed so we couldn't even more affected relatives or cousins) when the riots spread to Hyderabad. There may even be a video around. Here. Some are very close members of distant family or friends. I spent time with one of the people on the video. BTW I don't know all the people-some are relatives of people I know and the channel ain't mine:



When you lose someone basically you understand the importance of your country. You also look at the nature of your people. We are diverging. We once only had the word Pakistan zindabad on our lips and where are we now, cursing fellow Pakistanis? I could have hated Hindu's all my life for this but I know many Hindus suffered the same thing and continue to suffer it in Pakistan. The issue is building up a National identity as Jinnah envisioned (for which he made claims like abandon provincialism and the 11 August address) and it cannot be built if we are too divided in the ethnic and religious sense. Being a Pakistani means accepting every religious and ethnic group as our own and in time our ethnic identities were to disappear. We are supposed to be a nation, not a squabbling group of people who hate each other!

Instead after we moved... we forgot everything. We became racist to other races, we abused them and we looked down upon them. My khandaan members have been involved in some of the worst abuse to Pashtuns, Sindhis, Balochs and Punjabis.

Personally once we settled we should have helped the ethnic groups... thats what you do when you are in a better position right? Instead I just cannot understand why there is this sense of insecurity and why "hamari pehchaan" has to mean MQM despite its atrocities, its just that we want a Muhajir, a person from our community who we will vote for no matter what his record? Thats how an educated community behaves? Sounds like Jihalat. Furthermore we feel insecure? But why???? We have a gdp per capita according to H&H higher than anyone else (We earn +13,000 rupees more than the ethnic group that comes second according to this report), an HDI much better than anyone else. Take a simple example. Of the directors for radio Pakistan in Karachi 30% have been Muhajir, not a single baloch, 2-3 Pashtuns and Sindhis, rest punjabis. Compared this to the population. We are 8% of the total. We have a disproportionate role and we have built ourselves a tower with the help of Pashtuns, Sindhis and Balochs put ourselves at the top!

We take pride in the fact that we made Pakistan (though I hold this is a form of self-gratification and we should say that all ethnic groups made Pakistan and suffered equally for its formation) then why the hell can't we act like it? No one leaves his race, Secur. I saw things with my eyes. I am also a journalist so I get information others don't. I can qoute figures... numbers stats from reports and study's and I know. We are controlling Karachi and mistreating everyone else. Urdu is the national language and it is being imposed on everyone else... even the Punjabis. I saw my family abusing a Sindhi watchman in front of my eyes, at least people have respect not to abuse someone for his race in front of him. We didn't even have that honor? Then we ignore the crimes committed by Altaf. Does anyone ask about the situation in 92 when operation clean-up was launched? Violence was becoming a norm. What else could be done... and immediately the operation became an attack on Urdu-speakers... And guess what. I can post the report... every police officer remotely linked to that operation is linked... even the constables and sergeants under him.

I have stories upon stories... not from Sindhis or someone else... but fellow Muhajirs who were forced to pay extortion to MQM gangs. And now we want operations everywhere in Waziristan when we cry so much "bias this, discrimination that" about one little operation cleanup. We basically act like hypocrites Secur.

Now yes, about your statement. Even my Muhajir family/khandaan never ever stated any anti-pakistani feelings and love Pakistan in their own ways-even though some bhoot enters their body to defend Altaf's speech. There is a fool, an ideological cousin of Luffy but he is a wine-snobbing, morally-weak PPP supporter in Canada from the party which has an uneven ratio of producing some of the worst traitors to this country. But the issue is far different than that. Its what we teach our kids, its the conversations that take place in our living rooms and they consist of kicking Pashtuns, Sindhis and Balochs out. We say no one exept Muhajirs should enter Karachi... we insult people from other ethnic groups in front of them... my cousins and relatives have done it! And its really sad. This wasn't supposed to be how Pakistan was, we were to meld. Become one!

I rebelled against not only our khandaan, but all of society... I just said, enough! The message I wish to give is that ethnicity is temporary, a fluid concept that does not and should not be used to pitch us against each other. I wish to say... Pakistan comes first, make a statement of ethnic unity. I wish to stand against the discrimination.

I know my learning Pashtun language, knowing more about Pashtun geography, culture and history more than many people on Pakistani side know themselves will never be appreciated. But people don't understand what I am trying to say. Loving Pashtuns is a part of it, yes... I'd be crazy to be writing about Pashtuns, seeing the bias against them while they kept shouting Long live Pakistan not to love them dearly... but this is about more than that. Its about our unity. Its about Nationalism. Its about making the statement that all cultures in this country are extremely beautiful, that we do not have to hate our own people.

You will notice that despite adopting Pashtun culture I usually try not to comment on an issue holding too much sentimental value or which can be used by people like Luffy for example Bacha Khan. Basically about the forum I am talking about there were no Tajiks, Uzbeks or Hazaras. It was basically Pashtuns from Afghanistan insulting Pakistan, Punjabis and Pakistani Pashtuns (according to them we were Punjabi slaves) constantly. It was no one else. But people are unwilling to believe fellow Pashtuns can do this... so the conversation here has gone off on Tajiks, Hazaras and Uzbeks being the root of the issue, which in many ways is also true.

It proves people are a little defensive when it comes to ethnicity and I am trying to say... that is what Altaf Hussain or a leader who does politics on ethnic basis uses to his advantage just in the way Luffy or darkinsky do to create divisions. There is a cousin of ours who simply cannot hear a negative word about India (Lucknow is and should be a part of Pakistan being a heart of Muslim League-so should Hyderabad)... its a weakness. We can't be loyal to other nations just because they have some of our ancestors or people from our ethnic group. Everyone disagrees with him... but in anyway it proves that these ethnic identities can be used against Pakistan's unity.

What I described happens in my family... I am sure it happens in almost every urdu-speaking family and probably in those of other ethnic groups as a friend of mine beautifully put it when i was thinking of adopting Pashtun culture and ways-I basically learned that there are bigots everywhere finding a whole army of them on the other forum-they abused me so much I felt very unsure about myself-Luffy's best friend, the most racist person on the forum even told me I was a donkey trying to adopt lion's skin (Non-Pashtun trying to be Pashtun.

Thing is these issues on the basis of ethnicity shouldn't be there people like me and you can stop it. We love our country... and by loving our country it means loving every other ethnic group in it. Its the essence of Pakistan, Secur. We cannot deny it. Its not a country built on a race or ethnic group but a beautiful amalgamation of 200+ languages. Frankly no one can learn the ways of 200+ cultures... but i will of the 4 main in my mission to promote brotherhood. A fractured country cannot function. We cannot allow ourselves to be fractured.

We can start with our homes secur. I challenge anyone who criticizes another ethnic group. You can do it too... together... we can play a role in the removal of ethnic bigotry from our country. I have nothing against Muhajirs... I just feel being born one I have a right to condemn them and how they behaved. It won't be the same if I do it for another ethnic group though, even my adopted one-because its like after becoming one I am trying to tell people what to do. A good way to describe me is that I don't count Muhajir history (there is nothing such as Muhajir-i still hold btw) after 47 and the history of Afghanistan since 1983 (It was the year when southern regions separated and durand line came into being. Before that we were one nation which is basically the reason for the pain in Sher Malang and Luffy's bum.)

That is why I don't want @Hyperion and @Andromache to be quiet to Luffy, because only people from the ethnic group they belong to can fight bigots and prove them wrong, though in this case it is my sincere hope that I may be able to convert Luffy though I cannot help but despise what he proposes. Me he will always label a non-pashtun. He did the same with Imran Khan because he happened to live in Mianwali!

you can never be a pashtun regardless of what you do,

A jatt/rajput cease to be one when they drop their talwar.

 

[bronxbull]

That gutter from Afghanistan opened again? Don't you remember your people were selling their body parts in the streets of Kabul-women just stood at the corners to sell themselves to anyone who offered it.

What is your problem what someone else does? People swear when they get angry... she wears a headscarf, she is a noble woman, she struggled for the Orakzai all her life, tried to improve things in Pakistan unlike a keyboard warrior like you but her issue becomes her Pakistani patriotism and truth is you would kill all these people for Afghanistan. A friend of yours on that forum made the same comment anyway. You called Abdul Qayyum Khan a non-pashtun, you called Imran Khan a non-pashtun and lalak jan a Kashmiri without researching his ethnic origin. Anyone who does not agree has to be degraded.

Anyone with honor would swear when his/her country is insulted.Very much like your eternally hurting butt being set on fire and brain exploding the moment you hear negativity about Afghanistan though the abuse of Pakistan on the other forum never seems to hurt you one bit.

Luffy after stupid comments like these I really imagine you as a stone age barbarian living with Hakimullah Maseed in a little shack. Sta sa kor shta? haan, bacha? Ta Refugee de?



Since 1983... when we Pakistani Pashtuns/lar Pashtuns had the luck of escaping your evil clutches you have successively sold yourselves. First you sold us and ignored our 30+ rebellions against British rule calling us dal-khor and british agents. Your foreign policy was completely controlled by the British I might add. Then a few years later the Russians came and owned you. Without the help of Pakistan/lar Pashtuns your women wouldn't be swearing (which is a non-issue)... no... they would be dancing in Russian clubs... I don't need to say more. Now the same thing is happening with the Americans.

Luffy, knowing me... you wouldn't have dared to make this comment. But your purpose in life has become to provoke me somehow. I am writing about Waziristan... I won't let anyone insult them, I have seen the issues, talked to people and have defended the people of Waziristan once before. Stop trying to pitch our countrymen against each other, stop trying to utilize our issues to create divisions. You don't even have a news agencies in Afghanistan. Daily 3-4 people die on average due to the ethnic and gang war in Afghanistan and it goes unreported.

People who lack knowledge talk about nuking Waziristan for the actions of a few miscreants. An old friend from Afghanistan (A tajik) stated that she wants to bomb all of Afghanistan... kill each one of them. She was angry with her fellow people for being primitive to the point of no return and supportive of militancy and Taliban-inspired ways... which I also see in you. You are the property of a farsiwan... bombed in a US airstrike which never seems to give a damn whether its killing civilians or militants. If a farsiwan pushes you around in a wheelchair all day long then its not our fault.

Go do bachaybazi. We Pashtuns here don't have it. Its a national feature of your land. You should worry about the suggestions Farsiwan's give. If you don't believe check what they say on youtube. Not a single Punjabi or anyone else will be swearing at Pashtuns. In fact it will only be Afghans (Nation) and their pathetic backers. You are a disgrace.

why do u keep saying we,pashtuns?

u openly said u r a mohajjir.

when people like abu zulfiquar say it,it makes sense.

But a mohajjir doing it? Hahahahaha.

You did not notice other Pashtuns talking to this Afghan-lover of course before shooting off like EDL member. Nationalism has been a part of me since I was born. Za Pashtun yam aw za Pakistani yam. Its not someones fathers job to tell the other who he is. As I said ethnicity is fluid.

And you seriously need to watch that mouth. Talking of monkeys those devils jump across rooftops in your country and break into your houses. Having been in Lucknow for a while can tell those things are a real menace. May steal your dhoti some day from your house. They get into kitchens anyway. Maybe they stole your food which may be the reason for your belligerence today.



Watch your ****** mouth, it is as dirty as a gunda nullah of one of the old areas of Delhi where bare-assed children squat and pee. Learn something from people like @KRAIT rather than provoking people by hiding under your elite membership. We Pashtuns don't fear anything and the first one to get slapped would be you when you poke your nose in our affairs. if you think of me as a wannabe there are dozens of others like @AstanoshKhan @Hyperion and @Andromache.

You should watch whats going on at home:

A tamil liberation movement:
Tamil Nadu Liberation Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Alternatively you could think about this too:


If you don't want a Tamil like this coming and other telling Tamil people what they ought to do and what not then best leave us to deal with our Mir Jaffar's. It is extremely annoying when Indians put their nose in other peoples affairs trying to use an ethnic or sectarian issue for their short-sighted goals. This guy is in all probability a Taliban monkey sitting on the lap of Hakimullah Maseed, you support him and he will bomb Delhi. You can check Hakimullah's address greatly praising Afghan-lovers and Afghanistan for support but oops you don't know Pashto... at least I learned enough of the language to understand that message and am still learning. At least i know every bit of history, geographical location of tribes and the culture. But funny a Tamil from a place a liberation movement is in full swing is talking about a culture he has no idea of.



Why don't you research what happened to every Muhajir who came to Pakhtunkhwa after partition? They started calling himself a Pashtun rather than Muhajir, learned the tongue and settled, now people can't even tell which is which. I know people like these especially in the Punjab. Now use your brain before shooting off. You know nothing about our politics and geography but you act like a drunk, scandalous wench at a bar or club eager to talk to or dance with every guy just so he may take you home and bang you...

The thing with Luffy is that his butt eternally is glued to Afghanistan and he has no intention of being removed from it. On the other hand your bum is glued to India but you are interested in clawing your way to Pakistan even if it means India is divided like pan pizza. Which is more unfortunate?

Muhajir is supposed to be a temporary term given to migrants. it is far different for us to call ourselves Lucknowites... its a simple regional identity and can barely be used to give birth to an ethnic divide. As I have stated before I am proud of the Lucknowi background and my links to our ancestral house. I believe it hurts you that we (some members of family) are still in Lucknow while their hearts are in Pakistan.

I could give you a link to Jinnah's speech that hinted at how temporary this term was meant to be but I believe you are not here for the purpose of learning about the issue. Your purpose I'm afraid is to kiss Luffy on the cheek or acting like a typical bacteria share some sort of symbiotic relationship with him... but Luffy being a coward ran off because of the vociferous opposition he faced here.

Dude,

u r better trying to pass off as a pushtoon,i also know many muslims from UP and some of them do look pashtun but please dont talk about tamil liberation army and all.

We are not seeing any gun battle or bombs getting blasted in TN.

 

[haviZsultan]

Sher Malang can be seen lurking here once again... emboldened by dozen or so Indian trolls.

By we I mean the Firangi Mahal house... and our family. Or I mean Pashtun or Pakistanis. Your loyalty does not dissipate to your family if it does to Muhajirs... lol.

 

[Secur]

One reason I like debating with you is because I have become sure that I will get a reply... despite my sorry and insane-fully long posts. I have to wonder how you find the energy. Me, I do because I am a book writer and author of 40+ articles, so writing is a passion.

Personally I am undeserving of things such as respect. My purpose is to make a difference in this country and to help improve it. It is not our Nationalist way. I am glad there are people who understand these things. I just come here sometimes, then disappear on a project but personally I'd like to see u @Secur on the think tank. Though I must admit I would also like to be there as it may improve my position when I seek a publisher.

Learning another language is the hardest part. You see where I studied... I failed to learn both French or Arabic.
But when you love your country and understand its essence-loving all its people then basically it becomes much easier which it has. Still have trouble with the "has" and masculine feminine. Pashto has de (male for has) and da (female for has) and dee for plural. Urdu just has "hai."

Initially it was love for Pashtuns that led me to this and the bias I saw towards them... there is a lot in Karachi. Later when people were bashing me on the other forum and I was unsure of myself... I mean it was true what they were saying... I am a wannabe Pashtun... I thought it was more than about my love for Pashtuns. It was more about making a solid statement of ethnic unity. It would also give a strong statement to my family that we could integrate if we wanted and also against the MQM which wants to pitch Muhajirs against Pashtuns.

This ethnic unity has become my main purpose. I saw in Canada how we began fighting over it while Indians laughed at us.


It is good to know about your background. I agree. Brings me to the Biharis as well whose cause I have always supported. Very sad how we abandoned thousands upon thousands of our supporters there. A number of my uncles moved to East Pakistan after partition. Were very rich once. Now moved to what was left of Pakistan.

But people who work in the field become hopeless. I have also been a leader of a Nationalist organization in the past, its canada chapter. Frankly I have been struggling for my country for years but the issue I have noticed is we are too divided to basically even think of promoting Pakistan's interests. When we do the Indians and others don't let us. The Indians have a very strong lobby in the US.

In my family there have been inter-marriages between us and Punjabi families even amongst a chacha. But I don't see the ideas disappearing. My chacha remains a staunch MQM supporter. But I guess the changes are coming about. What I see however are reactionaries being born and that worries me... these guys are basically fed on the childhood nonsense of non-existant oppression. It doesn't just apply here. For example Abdul Nishapuri. If we say its not a shia genocide they will say you are sympathizing with our killers.

If 5-10 people die in Karachi daily it has the potential to polarize society ethnically as terrorism has often done... people begin thinking of themselves as separate ethnic or religious groups. Its the fracturing power of these people I am worried about which makes me counter bigots and challenge them.

I see the same dream as you though I must admit I do not share the optimism. Perhaps an effect of working in the field. Many people know me on account of my social work and Nationalism. Basically people like us get disillusioned after working hard and not seeing a change. I have also been raised outside Pakistan. I want Pakistan to be prosperous tolerant and united. You see other countries doing well... no one dying daily... wish as hell we could be like that.

Currently I don't see any Nationalist party in the political spectrum though. However I deeply wish for this change. Its up to us to bring about this change. It is my life's dream to host the Pakistan Nationalist Party but fortune isn't always kind. But I am greatly inspired by your views to continue my struggle. You can change things @Secur. You have found in me an ardent supporter.

Yeah... and this is the most important thing. By understanding this we can save our Pakistan. Our country is for everyone... each of our cultures is beautiful... ours is the history of Mir Chakar (Baloch), ours was the empire of Ahmed Shah Durrani (Pashtun) ours were the kingdoms of Talpurs (Sindh), so was that of Malik Bir Khan Ghakar (Punjab)... its for all of us. There was a member here Bilal or something... have no idea where he went... i really liked him for being detached from the ethnic issue.

I agree. We have ruined everything for ourselves.

I am inspired. There are twice as many here for every bigot...

Absolutely correct. There is no, absolutely no reason to define ethnic identity with another country. Plus its illogical. I proved it to him. 70-80% of all Pashtuns are in Pakistan, Afghanistan speaks Farsi and even most of the Pashtuns there Dari not Pashto, the other races dominate everything from transport to the military (see most of the ministers of the cabinet in Afghanistan and commander of the ANA), Pashtuns have become a slave race in that nation, the heart of Pashtun culture is Peshawar with a music, movie and entertainment industry with many events held for the promotion of Pashtun culture.

I think people who have to define their nationalism with Afghanistan are seriously the most dumb people to walk the planet. They are unfortunate not to see the deep bond between the people in Pakistan.

True...

You should be in the think tank secur.
Our views are largely in agreement.

Of course you will get a reply to such a detailed and insightful post , mate ... I am quite sure that a book writer cant write small one or two paragraphs on such a big and sensitive topic ... I think the reason that most people ( as you said in other post ) ignore your post is because not everybody has the patience and interest to read a lengthy discussion but there isn't a workaround from that because of the vastness of the topics we usually discuss ... Otherwise , we wont be able to do justice to the topic ...

Yes , mate ... There are always people who understand you , we just dont know they exist ... Respect is earned by doing good for the country , even though a nationalist should continue his work regardless of the attention he gets ... What projects except your novel " Badal " are you working on at the moment ? I would like to hear about them ... I would like to see you as " Jr " or a " Senior " Think tank because of your deep knowledge on the topic of War on Terror , Afghanistan and Pashtun tribes ...

Yes it is , that is why people learn new languages at a very early age ... You see how hard it gets afterwards as you age ? Can you speak Pashto fluently ? I am sure you understand it fully like any other Pashtun ... Yes , I will admit , there is a lot of bias against Pashtuns in Karachi ... People blame them for terrorism and instability in the country when it was the Zia-ul-Haq who started that mess in the first place , they had no chose but to follow his agenda once it was imposed on the people by the dictator , the Pakistanis had to fight a US war and get sanctions as a reward ... Yes , A wannabe Pashtun but with distant or remote family links with that race , right ? I told you before you have done , what I want everyone to do ... Appreciate and learn about other cultures and even adopt it ... Well , its not just the MQM , its about every single political party in Pakistan trying to pitch one person against other to get into the Govt and prolong their rule ... Such has been the sad affairs of the state after its founder died so early ...

Yeah , the diversity ensures that I cant associate myself with any race but only with the country I was born in ... Well , the cause of the deeply patriotic " stranded Pakistanis " in Bangladesh is a tragic one , those people still haven't forgotten their true country even when several generation have passed , they still hoist the flag of my country in their camps and yet the Govt isn't willing to accommodate such a relatively small number of patriots in the country ... I mean we can host over 2,700,000+ Afghans who have nothing to do with us , who are involved in drug trafficking , illegal arms selling and all other heinous crimes and despite our hospitality , will leave no chance to bad mouth Pakistan but we cant accept ~300,000 Biharis who fought with/for Pakistan Army ... You see such sort of things fuel ethnic problems - again the negligence of the corrupt Govts ...

Well I do not know about you , but I see more hope for this country than ever before for some reason ... I believe that a change is coming , revolution is near ... Do not give up , the silent majority rarely care about ethnic and religious issues , they are more interested in their daily lives and upward social mobility ... We look divided because of the silence of the people who need to stand and speak up !

Inter-marriages are a norm in my family too , I personally believe that its the solution for the ethnic problems that the country faces at the moment ... Inter-breed so that you can increase your genetic pool , mix so the ethnic identities disappear ... Yeah , the non-existent oppression that has continued from the day the MQM came into being and people suddenly realized that they were being treated unjustly and not given due representation which are a bunch of ugly lies considering the facts ...

I agree , the law and order situation in the country and particularly Karachi is not helping things ... What people dont recognize that they are being killed regardless of their race or religion , the killers are just murdering left and right to spread terror and cause chaos ... Well , I am a little bit over enthusiastic about these things , I have always thought from childhood that somehow " God helps this country otherwise there were plenty of disastrous times in our history but somehow " He accepts our undertakings and is in favor of the Pakistan's cause ... I am not a religious person though We will improve quite soon , prosperity will return and law and order situation will improve , just let this war against extremist end ... Yes , there's no nationalist party but there's hope and the silent majority which stands with us for this cause ... Cheer up !

Yes , we are very diverse , an amalgamation of literally dozens of cultures ... Not to mention the geography and climate of our country - only a few nations are lucky to have this ... By understanding different cultures , we can return on the right path , stop this ethnic bull **** and work for the better future of the country ...

Yes , but see this too ... We aren't afraid of self-criticism , ready to rectify our mistakes and mend our ways , basically we understand " In understanding lies the recovery " ... I see this as a quality ...

Everybody needs to get it in the head that we are Pakistanis , not Sindhi , Punjabi , Baluch , Pashtun or Urdu Speaker etc ... If the Indian Muslims are loyal to their country , why cant we be ? If Sikhs and Hindus migrated to India and aren't called immigrants now then why do we take this discriminatory word as an identity for us ? How exactly is it that even after having the largest Pashtun population , some people think " Afghanistan " as some promised land for them ? This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard ... That country is being controlled by other groups yet the Afghan lovers are busy supporting the stupid idea that somehow their destiny is linked with that hell hole country , I ask how and why ? ... Pashtuns are integrated just like everybody else in the society , in almost every field and Govt and they have due representation ... How people like to portray them as being neglected and dominated by other races in Pakistan when such is the case in Afghanistan ? ANA and NA are primarily dominated by all others except Pashtun , the same is the case with Afghan people but yet some are delusioned ...

Nah mate , I do not think I yet deserve that high honor , bro ...

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

@haviZsultan You are getting on people's nerves here, they dont like your contineous whining and bytching. You were right when you said that people are ignoring your posts, even andromach, hyperion, astonish khan, abu zulfiqar and taimi khan are not responding to your posts even though you are constantly tagging/mentioning then in every post in hope of getting support against me. They surely support your pro-pakistani views but they dont like you dragging them into every pashtun-centric discussion. You are thrilled and excited as wannabe pashtun thats why word pashtun is so much on your tongue, but for these desified pathans, too much pashtun-centric talk is nauseating. Give them some break.
Go finish your book first , publish it , then call yourself an author. And you are head of which party in canada exactly? Share us the link to its website. You know what ,you are displaying signs of mania and schizophrenia.

 

[haviZsultan]

@Secur I will give a short reply to your post soon.

Ofcourse I saw..but my post was pointedly at you for a particular reason.

Wow hold on to your words Mr.My name is Insecurity. I meant Monkey D Luffy.

Listen up, if you don't have a brain to realize it. You are a pathetic troll on this forum and your presence I have been noting is simply an annoyance, nothing more and nothing less which is why you feel compelled to do things... as if there is a thorium from mass effect stuck in your mind.

Now this gets even more interesting. A mohajir wannabe Pathan teaching a native Tamil about his own land. That sounds just about right. NOT !

Lolz. If you knew what irony is. Okay fine I am a wannabe Muhajir. Lets say there is no proof of the 15% blood, the links to a Pashtun princess or the links to Pir Roshan etc etc. And our family always considered itself Muhajir since it moved. But the thing is its in the same country as Pashtuns, in fact sharing a city with them where ethnic tensions have exploded because of rich migrants like them who want it all for themselves..

Tamils are south Indians. When we go to a restaurant and someone offers and says why don't we go to a South Indian, marathi, mallu restaurant... we always say no. Your food only you can eat, unfortunately. There is a great difference in culture between south and north india and only a fool would be incapable of noticing this. Pashtuns however are on the edge of India right on the border of Afghanistan (I doubt a person with a low IQ like you knows this but is getting butt-hurt for poor innocent Afghan-lover Luffy) Okay? Now consider this... a person from UP may still share some common characteristics with a Pashtun but one from Tamil Nadu who does not even share the religion, the basic traits? lol. At least I am in the same nation as Pashtuns and 2-4 million, perhaps more are in my city. You on the other hand have probably never seen one... because if you spewed this rubbish which is your hallmark as you do on this site it would take barely a moment for you to be beaten up, or perhaps shot.

Use your brain and apply that logic on yourself before being a self-righteous monkey and preaching to the world. A dark tamil with an ugly mustache like a hero from a third grade tamil film is basically telling comparatively fair-skinned Pashtuns with beards and fierce features and Lucknowites who know nothing about that rice on a leaf and that horrid smelling fish, Sapaddu and eating from a thali and avoid your restaurants as if they are the burning mouth of the devil.

Which is worse? @KS you have no clue about the ethnic situation here. I am sure I do not about the ethnic situation in regions other than Lucknow, barey gaon (our ancestral village), Hyderabad and Delhi, perhaps a little about Bihar.

Liberation movement in full swing ? Oye bhaiya come out from the fiction world you seem to be onto the real world..

Lol. Listen closely. There is a woman called Sana. I knew her though to be truthful I knew her family better. She was from Azampura in Hyderabad, some from there don't know the area... but probably know old malakpat. When the Gujarat riots occurred they quickly spread you other cities. Hyderabad has a population of 40% Muslim and 60% Hindu. Riots were bound to occur. One day apparently your little thugs decided to go crazy. They entered Sana's house, raped her, tortured her and upon resistance from the family killed them. She was a student at Osmania college. They believe an RSS affiliated student in college may have been involved in the killing.

Now lets forget this. Its just another crime though one has to wonder how come 80-90% of the victims were Muslims in the Gujrat riots, why the figures from only Gujarat were taken into account and why there was a huge difference in accounts of government and human rights groups as to the numbers.

Do you know what happens when our people went to file a police report. Your police refused to write a report... not just that. A number of relatives were jailed and threatened of dire consequences if they spoke about it to anyone... now you will have lots of wet farts about why they did not go to the courts. Lol. Guess what esteemed judges tell Muslims in India. "Why don't you go to Pakistan"... of course not surprising when 10, 20 muslims were burned alive in front of the courts during the riots. All your newspapers mentioned for Hyderabad was a few people hurt which was also true but not the whole truth.

I have worked with a human rights group known as the sufferers witness. They have many cases like these and move affected families from Indian Kashmir and on occasions other parts too. They are affiliated with our various Nationalist movements. People I know have lived in Afzalganj historically... though your RSS champions have stolen land belonging to us for generations, court cases for which are still pending in your courts for 60+ years.

Now this is not fiction and is the real face of your country! This is what we guys escaped when we escaped India. lol. Now look at your ****** rubbish everywhere when someone is basically rebelling against your dog Altaf because he sides with you on partition and wants to sell us to India.

This is a very debauched act from you. After all this you are trying to challenge our efforts for ethnic harmony? I am not surprised you are supporting Luffy and his divisive mindset. I am sure if someone cuts up his stomach they will find a godamn gold mine down there, with coins of Indian origin of course...

Now considering this very personal experience I really doubt news services will report of what the 5-6 liberation movements in Tamil Nadu are actually doing. Wonder how many things are hidden by your government.

Fun now how sons of the same RSS thugs want us to maintain an ethnic and sectarian division in our blessed land. Our independence will always hurt them.

People integrate into the local fabric... it was supposed to be that way. You don't know history. I will do everything in my power to ensure there is nothing such as a "Muhajir" in Pakistan ever again, it was never meant to be anything. Fun how the term is now being used as a tool for our enemies. Actually recently one of you claimed it is a derogatory term to them, to oppressed Muhajirs who somehow happen to be the richest community in Pakistan. lol. When they are trying to integrate and merge into the local communities Indians like you are showing their hypocritical faces.

God knows what our forefathers actually thought when they failed to integrate. There is nothing such as Muhajir. This is a reply for you and if it burns your bum you can sit inside a bucket of water.

Actually when the Luffy guy was saying you were slightly disturbed, I just took it as verbal banter. Now I see what he meant. Me interested in clawing my way into Pakistan ? lol wtf.. For what genius ? For being branded a kaffir and be killed or go boom-boom in a market place. Just look at what you are writing. Would make Tom Clancy go rose on his cheeks for the sheer amount of aggrandizement and rhetoric.

I admit, I am disturbed, I am a donkey trying to adopt another skin, I am downright mad, but I will eliminate the ethnic and sectarian issues that divide us. Muhajir is simply a fake identity. Its not your fathers responsibility to ensure we maintain it. This is in fact a case of butt in India and head and arms stretching to Pakistan.

Situations in places change constantly and ethnicity is fluid-I would tell you about our family background if you had the brain to listen and you would find out some of our ancestors were Arab, some Tajik and one possibly Pashtun. I think its time to watch out for yourself. We have more news channels than entertainment channels. In India its the other way around since only what the government wants is reported. That Tamil Nadu Liberation Army may get you very soon. I bet they keep a tab on Indians like you... maybe they are outside your home.

This is the problem when you let fiction writers let you give facts.

When your country is broken from within don't cry to us... Btw if i begin to talk about our family, relatives and contacts left in Lucknow, Hyderabad and Delhi it will hurt your *** more than it hurts it when I call myself Pashtun? You can check my old posts before I had seen Altaf's stupid speech and I was much more committed to those in the past. It is also the reason I support the Bihari cause.

Obviously... kids will learn things from your family members and relatives. So basically despite our sacrifices for Pakistan unfortunately we were taught rubbish and muhajir chauvinism which I have the courage to reject now.

Pwe shwi? I guess not unless I speak mallu language. Urrvvrrr... hrrvveerrr.... sorry I am not a wolf, I mean Tamil so I cannot speak your tongue. We Pashtuns produced poets like Ghani Khan, Hamza Shinwari, Rehman Baba and Khushal Khan Khattak so our soft tongue does not match your horrid one.

And here are some links. Denying a reality doesn't make it disappear. Its not like farting. You fart and its no more in your stomach.

Why Freedom (Independence) for Tamil Nadu from Indian Rule?

Tamil Nadu Liberation Army (TNLA)

Is Tamil Nadu independence possible?

Denying something doesn't make it disappear. My initial articles as a journalist were all for muslims in India and defensive towards Pakistan... but a journalist cannot ignore local issues. Your country may not survive if you ignore its issues. Worse... if u don't look at them you might end up a victim of Tamil Nadu Liberation Army. Try and make friends rather than enemies. I know you have become used to paying bribes in Tamil Nadu being morally corrupt but unfortunately your elite membership isn't going to last long if you maintain your belligerent attitude. Learn from what happened to @RazPaK..

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

we know what they really think but we also know what punjabis think of dark coloured sindhis/mohajjirs?

no sweat.



you can never be a pashtun regardless of what you do,

A jatt/rajput cease to be one when they drop their talwar.

Aho no sweat. Not as bad as north vs south I east vs West Indian

 

[haviZsultan]

Of course you will get a reply to such a detailed and insightful post , mate ... I am quite sure that a book writer cant write small one or two paragraphs on such a big and sensitive topic ... I think the reason that most people ( as you said in other post ) ignore your post is because not everybody has the patience and interest to read a lengthy discussion but there isn't a workaround from that because of the vastness of the topics we usually discuss ... Otherwise , we wont be able to do justice to the topic ...

Yes , mate ... There are always people who understand you , we just dont know they exist ... Respect is earned by doing good for the country , even though a nationalist should continue his work regardless of the attention he gets ... What projects except your novel " Badal " are you working on at the moment ? I would like to hear about them ... I would like to see you as " Jr " or a " Senior " Think tank because of your deep knowledge on the topic of War on Terror , Afghanistan and Pashtun tribes ...

Personally to be truthful... I am looking for a publisher for my book since the one I am signed up with doesn't seem to strong-especially in the fiction field. So basically I want to give him an impressive record of my expertise. Think tank on a forum with millions of hits can help I guess.

Recently I jokingly told @Hyperion he make a request to promote me jr think thank or give me an interview... I hoped I'd actually get an interview though... just to confirm some things about Waziristan for my book but he shut me up pretty quick. :p

But despite wanting to be a think tank I don't want it to be unfair. lol. There are many posters like you @Hyperion and @Andromache who have many more posts and are more of a regular presence rather than one that is unreliable and suddenly disappears for a while to come back again. (Talking about myself)...

I will make the suggestion for you to be promoted to think tank. Also for a new role for @Armstrong-he is really good at relieving tension and ending heated arguments though he also specializes in derailing threads and spamming. No offense.

Yes it is , that is why people learn new languages at a very early age ... You see how hard it gets afterwards as you age ? Can you speak Pashto fluently ? I am sure you understand it fully like any other Pashtun ... Yes , I will admit , there is a lot of bias against Pashtuns in Karachi ... People blame them for terrorism and instability in the country when it was the Zia-ul-Haq who started that mess in the first place , they had no chose but to follow his agenda once it was imposed on the people by the dictator , the Pakistanis had to fight a US war and get sanctions as a reward ... Yes , A wannabe Pashtun but with distant or remote family links with that race , right ? I told you before you have done , what I want everyone to do ... Appreciate and learn about other cultures and even adopt it ... Well , its not just the MQM , its about every single political party in Pakistan trying to pitch one person against other to get into the Govt and prolong their rule ... Such has been the sad affairs of the state after its founder died so early ...

Every party has done the same... but Secur let me clarify why I specifically feel inclined to pick on the MQM. My family didn't just move across the border. It strongly identifies itself as Muhajir and are voters of the MQM, this support for them is all around me like a cacophony of maddening shrieks, i cannot escape it even by becoming a Pashtun. Basically ever since I got involved in politics I have been aware and been told that I am a Muhajir.

The changes you see are fairly recent. Now basically when someone is born in a community and sees its issues... he criticizes it right? I feel I have a right to criticize how we behaved and the formation of the MQM. This basically sets peoples hair on fire.

When I debate with MQM people I get called names like Pathan ki awlaad and other things. It was exact opposite with the Pashtuns (from Afghanistan and their backers) on that site but admin kicked me out.

Also I deeply thank you. Very few people come to accept what I have done, look at it positively without a trace of suspicion-especially since I feel loyal to the firangi mahal and ansari clan (our family) despite the change-how can i not be? Lucknow was the heartland of the muslim league and home of the lucknow pact. Bigots from both races have basically told me I don't belong in either.

Yes you are right. The issue is our heritage is unproven. Some relatives cite the anecdote of a Pashtun princess marrying one of our ancestors... but then how much of Pashtun blood do I have? Any way to gauge it? Another thing is it is unproven though I have believed this to be manifest truth for a while ... though talked about by some senior members in the khandaan, most, particularly MQM chauvinists deny it. Yes, thanks to a very good instructor I can understand Pashto but still when I speak people generally can tell I am not one of birth or learned the language... also make errors sometimes which pashto speakers may note. I know the vocabulary and most verbs but still have to learn how to apply them when its a he, she, it, I or you... lots of stuff. But my instructor is working on vocabulary which has greatly improved my ability to understand it.

Also you said the issue is not just an MQM issue... its a wider issue of race based politics. I wish to criticize this more openly... but the thing is (you would have noticed I don't criticize ANP heavily though I see it negatively) if I start criticizing Bacha Khan and ANP after I adopt Pashtun race its like I am joining and then I am telling Pashtuns what to do... only place I fight is when someone calls for the break up of my country or openly abuses other ethnic groups. I am especially concerned since the way people like Luffy and another member toramana react. They were racists but thing is they are right... they said I am a donkey trying to adopt lions skin but basically its very true.

Thing is I was nationalist long before anything else. I stop them when they abuse my country and reply back which they don't like at all. Still I try to avoid sharing my views on topics of sentimental value like ANP or Bacha Khan... but someone will talk about breaking my country i won't stop.

Yeah , the diversity ensures that I cant associate myself with any race but only with the country I was born in ... Well , the cause of the deeply patriotic " stranded Pakistanis " in Bangladesh is a tragic one , those people still haven't forgotten their true country even when several generation have passed , they still hoist the flag of my country in their camps and yet the Govt isn't willing to accommodate such a relatively small number of patriots in the country ... I mean we can host over 2,700,000+ Afghans who have nothing to do with us , who are involved in drug trafficking , illegal arms selling and all other heinous crimes and despite our hospitality , will leave no chance to bad mouth Pakistan but we cant accept ~300,000 Biharis who fought with/for Pakistan Army ... You see such sort of things fuel ethnic problems - again the negligence of the corrupt Govts ...

I agree... though I also believe those Afghan refugees should be given a chance to integrate by being given a chance to gain citizenship, particularly the affluent classes. That would piss off the keyboard warriors and Afghan-lover Pakistan bashers from the neighboring country-internet basically only comes in a few cities. 5% of the population has access only.) I guess I have a feeling for refugees regardless of their background and being callous towards them by calling Luffy or Sher Malang one.

As I said we moved late and Ayub closed the borders for some reason before all families had moved. Then there was some trouble in India with our relatives (distant) and people we knew in Hyderabad (our ancestral home is lucknow though but basically we were spread out)... some people lost family members there and stuff and we had lots of trouble trying to shift some relatives to Pakistan, my mother stayed in Lucknow and married from there, then became a Pakistani citizen. Guards at FIA office were abusive, insulted them and did everything to make them feel unwelcome. Why would they come to Pakistan and want to get citizenship if they loved India? But we don't have a brain in this regard. Look at the west. Importing professionals from Pakistan while manufacturing a brain drain in our land. We are turning educated people away instead. People may disagree b8 i support this still...

That played a part in my nationalism... I get affected by things and then go mad... have to take action.
You can read up my old posts if you find some. I became extremely active with the Sufferers Witness at that time around 2-3 years ago (charity group, does lots of work on woman's rights but lots on helping refugees as well.), was even sympathetic to the MQM though I wouldn't have been if I saw that horrid speech and studied more (didn't have the contacts as a journalist either). Recently Luffy provoked me and I basically insulted my family background, our relatives in Pakistan and "Muhajirs" a lot. @Karachiite without knowing me made a post defending Altaf's speech. lol. But you see where I am coming from @Secur? Any reference of going back and merging with india is like a slap on my face, especially coming from a pakistan-any reference that partition is wrong is a slap to the things i have seen in Sufferers witness and with friends and family that moved from hyderabad. The thing is like this is what people moving across the border suffered, about a million were killed. We moved to make Pakistan and build it, because we believed in Quaid's dream, we wanted Pakistan, ALL of it, not just an enclave for so called "muhajirs". Not to vote for terrorist politicians.

I blamed the Indians a lot... but whats their fault? Don't we (some fanatics) do the same thing to minorities in Pakistan? And what do we care anyway? People in our khandaan are basically defending the MQM and Altaf's speech despite knowing of the people killed in India. I feel we are deviating from the task at hand.

Those days of partition must have been so romantic... leaving everything, our houses, our lives, even half our family members with no guarantee of what the future holds... and now when we are here... what do we feel, what do we do for our country? Nothing except bash the original inhabitants? I feel sad and very angry... this shouldn't have happened Secur. We died like pigs in a slaughterhouse down there... we can't become like that, indifferent. No one quits his race unless absolutely frustrated with what he saw.

When i talk to MQM chauvinists people like @Armstrong say nothing because if they interfere its basically like a non-muhajir speaking about the affairs of one... and then they have a little humility and anyone who talks about ethnic unity would support those guys... they understand the entire issue as well and how quickly things can become an ethnic firefight. But the thing is Secur... lets leave me... i am in many ways raceless, because both Pashtuns and Muhajirs will doubt my intentions the moment i speak about them and that also using the common we i do all the time.

But I guess the most important thing would be that you and @GIANTsasquatch and others do not stop speaking against the tyranny of the MQM. People from the race know more and can help convince these people and bring them out of it. My parents actually have been away from Pakistan half their life... i was raised in Dubai too most of my life with many years spent in Toronto. Our knowledge basically comes from our larger family/relatives. They support MQM our family will too as they do now. But if knowledgeable people like you and others challenge them then perhaps there is a chance to beat these guys.

Well I do not know about you , but I see more hope for this country than ever before for some reason ... I believe that a change is coming , revolution is near ... Do not give up , the silent majority rarely care about ethnic and religious issues , they are more interested in their daily lives and upward social mobility ... We look divided because of the silence of the people who need to stand and speak up !

Inter-marriages are a norm in my family too , I personally believe that its the solution for the ethnic problems that the country faces at the moment ... Inter-breed so that you can increase your genetic pool , mix so the ethnic identities disappear ... Yeah , the non-existent oppression that has continued from the day the MQM came into being and people suddenly realized that they were being treated unjustly and not given due representation which are a bunch of ugly lies considering the facts ..

I totally agree with the inter-marriage solution which I fully support. We cannot let these parties destroy the intricate beautiful bond between us Pakistanis (the various ethnic groups)... I hope by revolution you mean PTI cauz i'm voting for him... but am a little cautious after u know so many years of looting...

I agree , the law and order situation in the country and particularly Karachi is not helping things ... What people dont recognize that they are being killed regardless of their race or religion , the killers are just murdering left and right to spread terror and cause chaos ... Well , I am a little bit over enthusiastic about these things , I have always thought from childhood that somehow " God helps this country otherwise there were plenty of disastrous times in our history but somehow " He accepts our undertakings and is in favor of the Pakistan's cause ... I am not a religious person though We will improve quite soon , prosperity will return and law and order situation will improve , just let this war against extremist end ... Yes , there's no nationalist party but there's hope and the silent majority which stands with us for this cause ... Cheer up !

Yes , we are very diverse , an amalgamation of literally dozens of cultures ... Not to mention the geography and climate of our country - only a few nations are lucky to have this ... By understanding different cultures , we can return on the right path , stop this ethnic bull **** and work for the better future of the country ...

Yes , but see this too ... We aren't afraid of self-criticism , ready to rectify our mistakes and mend our ways , basically we understand " In understanding lies the recovery " ... I see this as a quality ...

Yeah. I think this is one of the best things... Pakistanis today are keen to accept their mistakes and rectify them. Personally I would never even have thought 5-10 years ago to gain any support for this idea. I also held and still hold the perhaps irrational fear that the current violence may divide my country further into tiny squabbling groups.

Basically its hard to be an optimist for me though. You will hear my name in humanitarian groups like TCF, Yaseer trust, Edhi and Ilm o amal other than on the nationalist front. Being a Pakistani today isn't just hard outside your country but in it as well.

Everybody needs to get it in the head that we are Pakistanis , not Sindhi , Punjabi , Baluch , Pashtun or Urdu Speaker etc ... If the Indian Muslims are loyal to their country , why cant we be ? If Sikhs and Hindus migrated to India and aren't called immigrants now then why do we take this discriminatory word as an identity for us ? How exactly is it that even after having the largest Pashtun population , some people think " Afghanistan " as some promised land for them ? This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard ... That country is being controlled by other groups yet the Afghan lovers are busy supporting the stupid idea that somehow their destiny is linked with that hell hole country , I ask how and why ? ... Pashtuns are integrated just like everybody else in the society , in almost every field and Govt and they have due representation ... How people like to portray them as being neglected and dominated by other races in Pakistan when such is the case in Afghanistan ? ANA and NA are primarily dominated by all others except Pashtun , the same is the case with Afghan people but yet some are delusioned ...

I agree. Btw I would also like to cast light on something else I could have and indeed have tried to do before. I used to be part of the Pakistan Nationalist Association which is part of a wider Nationalist movement. What we tried to do to end the ethnic issue once and for all was tell our members to basically say I am Pakistani whenever someone asked about their ethnic identity and we were told not to tell our kids our ethnic identity... something if done by 180 million people would have led to ethnicity disappearing completely. But you see the loopholes here were obvious:
1) Anyone can know your ethnicity by finding out the language you speak and the geographic location you inhibit especially if he has enough knowledge.
2) How is it possible? Is it possible to impose on people such an idea and basically shove it in their minds that they do this. my point here is what is going to ensure they won't tell their kids which race they belong to. In other ways, there is no way to IMPLEMENT it.
3) A small movement of 12000 members can only ensure that its laws apply of course to its members. What about the 180 million outside the movement. Luffy would go mad (though he appears to have changed or says so) and @darkinsky would commit suicide when told to give up ethnic identity even though its abusive to them (as I said Muhajir is a very abusive term-it delectably means traveler, is our family one of nomads??? Its an insult to themselves and they didn't try to get rid of it?)

I guess I don't need to tell you that our policy was the failure of the century which we used to make fun off boisterously including the leader who introduced the idea... we took steps later on demanding members to learn a number of languages other than their own in order to futilely obfuscate our ethnic identity yet again. (Its all being added in my ethnic paper. Will share it on PDF but may time writing it with the book and research and all) But point 2) remained. We can't stop people from jumping a red signal how are we going to tell them not to tell their kids their ethnicity. Plus what makes us think that ethnicity itself is the problem rather than bigotry or ethnic superciliousness?

Frankly it hasn't worked and we need another solution. I thought it would be a good one to merge into another ethnic group. Pashtuns... i loved them of course but they were also seen by our khandaan as the worst enemies of muhajirs thanks to the MQM (which was another reason I grew attracted to them)... this was and is the best solution, I believe. It also creates a great feeling of goodwill. A Pashtun (forget the douches in the e-world) has shown me nothing but respect upon learning my background. They can tell-I pause when speaking Pashto, struggle with words and it takes time to register what they are saying-so no I am not perfect yet!)

Also don't worry if I am a little defensive about Pashtuns... I have seen a lot of bias here, even in Dubai where I lived a lot of time. I will always be Pakistani first second and last... then a person who loves Pashtuns and calls himself one.

Am very glad to meet you. You would notice that whenever someone starts insulting a party like MQM it quickly degenerates into a race war. Even when I criticize Muhajir behavior it happens sometimes since I easily pass for a Pashtun on this site and people don't know the background... then it quickly becomes a pillow fight. People defend their ethnicity and attack the other. It shows they are not disengaged from ethnicity as they are supposed to be. But I believe you are and this would make you a great think-tank. I easily get riled too and you are an easy going person.

Nah mate , I do not think I yet deserve that high honor , bro ...

You do. I will talk about it to Webbie or give a suggestion. Sorry for that huge reply bro... i noticed that i failed to reply to some of your posts which were of extremely high quality. So I felt i should reply.

 

[bronxbull]

@Secur I will give a short reply to your post soon.



Listen up, if you don't have a brain to realize it. You are a pathetic troll on this forum and your presence I have been noting is simply an annoyance, nothing more and nothing less which is why you feel compelled to do things... as if there is a thorium from mass effect stuck in your mind.



Lolz. If you knew what irony is. Okay fine I am a wannabe Muhajir. Lets say there is no proof of the 15% blood, the links to a Pashtun princess or the links to Pir Roshan etc etc. And our family always considered itself Muhajir since it moved. But the thing is its in the same country as Pashtuns, in fact sharing a city with them where ethnic tensions have exploded because of rich migrants like them who want it all for themselves..

Tamils are south Indians. When we go to a restaurant and someone offers and says why don't we go to a South Indian, marathi, mallu restaurant... we always say no. Your food only you can eat, unfortunately. There is a great difference in culture between south and north india and only a fool would be incapable of noticing this. Pashtuns however are on the edge of India right on the border of Afghanistan (I doubt a person with a low IQ like you knows this but is getting butt-hurt for poor innocent Afghan-lover Luffy) Okay? Now consider this... a person from UP may still share some common characteristics with a Pashtun but one from Tamil Nadu who does not even share the religion, the basic traits? lol. At least I am in the same nation as Pashtuns and 2-4 million, perhaps more are in my city. You on the other hand have probably never seen one... because if you spewed this rubbish which is your hallmark as you do on this site it would take barely a moment for you to be beaten up, or perhaps shot.

Use your brain and apply that logic on yourself before being a self-righteous monkey and preaching to the world. A dark tamil with an ugly mustache like a hero from a third grade tamil film is basically telling comparatively fair-skinned Pashtuns with beards and fierce features and Lucknowites who know nothing about that rice on a leaf and that horrid smelling fish, Sapaddu and eating from a thali and avoid your restaurants as if they are the burning mouth of the devil.

Which is worse? @KS you have no clue about the ethnic situation here. I am sure I do not about the ethnic situation in regions other than Lucknow, barey gaon (our ancestral village), Hyderabad and Delhi, perhaps a little about Bihar.



Lol. Listen closely. There is a woman called Sana. I knew her though to be truthful I knew her family better. She was from Azampura in Hyderabad, some from there don't know the area... but probably know old malakpat. When the Gujarat riots occurred they quickly spread you other cities. Hyderabad has a population of 40% Muslim and 60% Hindu. Riots were bound to occur. One day apparently your little thugs decided to go crazy. They entered Sana's house, raped her, tortured her and upon resistance from the family killed them. She was a student at Osmania college. They believe an RSS affiliated student in college may have been involved in the killing.

Now lets forget this. Its just another crime though one has to wonder how come 80-90% of the victims were Muslims in the Gujrat riots, why the figures from only Gujarat were taken into account and why there was a huge difference in accounts of government and human rights groups as to the numbers.

Do you know what happens when our people went to file a police report. Your police refused to write a report... not just that. A number of relatives were jailed and threatened of dire consequences if they spoke about it to anyone... now you will have lots of wet farts about why they did not go to the courts. Lol. Guess what esteemed judges tell Muslims in India. "Why don't you go to Pakistan"... of course not surprising when 10, 20 muslims were burned alive in front of the courts during the riots. All your newspapers mentioned for Hyderabad was a few people hurt which was also true but not the whole truth.

I have worked with a human rights group known as the sufferers witness. They have many cases like these and move affected families from Indian Kashmir and on occasions other parts too. They are affiliated with our various Nationalist movements. People I know have lived in Afzalganj historically... though your RSS champions have stolen land belonging to us for generations, court cases for which are still pending in your courts for 60+ years.

Now this is not fiction and is the real face of your country! This is what we guys escaped when we escaped India. lol. Now look at your ****** rubbish everywhere when someone is basically rebelling against your dog Altaf because he sides with you on partition and wants to sell us to India.

This is a very debauched act from you. After all this you are trying to challenge our efforts for ethnic harmony? I am not surprised you are supporting Luffy and his divisive mindset. I am sure if someone cuts up his stomach they will find a godamn gold mine down there, with coins of Indian origin of course...

Now considering this very personal experience I really doubt news services will report of what the 5-6 liberation movements in Tamil Nadu are actually doing. Wonder how many things are hidden by your government.

Fun now how sons of the same RSS thugs want us to maintain an ethnic and sectarian division in our blessed land. Our independence will always hurt them.

People integrate into the local fabric... it was supposed to be that way. You don't know history. I will do everything in my power to ensure there is nothing such as a "Muhajir" in Pakistan ever again, it was never meant to be anything. Fun how the term is now being used as a tool for our enemies. Actually recently one of you claimed it is a derogatory term to them, to oppressed Muhajirs who somehow happen to be the richest community in Pakistan. lol. When they are trying to integrate and merge into the local communities Indians like you are showing their hypocritical faces.

God knows what our forefathers actually thought when they failed to integrate. There is nothing such as Muhajir. This is a reply for you and if it burns your bum you can sit inside a bucket of water.



I admit, I am disturbed, I am a donkey trying to adopt another skin, I am downright mad, but I will eliminate the ethnic and sectarian issues that divide us. Muhajir is simply a fake identity. Its not your fathers responsibility to ensure we maintain it. This is in fact a case of butt in India and head and arms stretching to Pakistan.

Situations in places change constantly and ethnicity is fluid-I would tell you about our family background if you had the brain to listen and you would find out some of our ancestors were Arab, some Tajik and one possibly Pashtun. I think its time to watch out for yourself. We have more news channels than entertainment channels. In India its the other way around since only what the government wants is reported. That Tamil Nadu Liberation Army may get you very soon. I bet they keep a tab on Indians like you... maybe they are outside your home.



When your country is broken from within don't cry to us... Btw if i begin to talk about our family, relatives and contacts left in Lucknow, Hyderabad and Delhi it will hurt your *** more than it hurts it when I call myself Pashtun? You can check my old posts before I had seen Altaf's stupid speech and I was much more committed to those in the past. It is also the reason I support the Bihari cause.

Obviously... kids will learn things from your family members and relatives. So basically despite our sacrifices for Pakistan unfortunately we were taught rubbish and muhajir chauvinism which I have the courage to reject now.

Pwe shwi? I guess not unless I speak mallu language. Urrvvrrr... hrrvveerrr.... sorry I am not a wolf, I mean Tamil so I cannot speak your tongue. We Pashtuns produced poets like Ghani Khan, Hamza Shinwari, Rehman Baba and Khushal Khan Khattak so our soft tongue does not match your horrid one.

And here are some links. Denying a reality doesn't make it disappear. Its not like farting. You fart and its no more in your stomach.

Why Freedom (Independence) for Tamil Nadu from Indian Rule?

Tamil Nadu Liberation Army (TNLA)

Is Tamil Nadu independence possible?

Denying something doesn't make it disappear. My initial articles as a journalist were all for muslims in India and defensive towards Pakistan... but a journalist cannot ignore local issues. Your country may not survive if you ignore its issues. Worse... if u don't look at them you might end up a victim of Tamil Nadu Liberation Army. Try and make friends rather than enemies. I know you have become used to paying bribes in Tamil Nadu being morally corrupt but unfortunately your elite membership isn't going to last long if you maintain your belligerent attitude. Learn from what happened to @RazPaK..

dude,what bulla u r giving people here,

There are people say Tamil people living thousands of miles away from pashtuns and they dont want to be called as pashtuns and neither do they want to be called anything other than what they actually are.

Same with any people anywhere.

Jews came from all over the place and they dont say we r russian jew,estonian jew,morccan jew etc,they just say they are jew.

You are talking about eating rice with hands to be poor,thats what your people eat as Biryani in Hyderabad and Awadh and from what i know UP Bhayyas didn't invent the fork and spoon or the table manners either.

You think we really care if you or anyone is going to show up at those restaurants or not,the tamil chettinad restaurants are brimming with crowds all the time.

I repeat again of that cabbie in abu dhabi who called Imran Khan a farzi pathan,i wonder what he ll call u?

Hahaha,

There are people like you in India also,they are even called pathani and infact they know that they are pathani they dont even care about proving it,unlike you.

And regarding the TNLA,hahahaha.

As always you know zukk,whether about your country Pakistan or my country India.

 

[Secur]

Personally to be truthful... I am looking for a publisher for my book since the one I am signed up with doesn't seem to strong-especially in the fiction field. So basically I want to give him an impressive record of my expertise. Think tank on a forum with millions of hits can help I guess.

Recently I jokingly told @Hyperion he make a request to promote me jr think thank or give me an interview... I hoped I'd actually get an interview though... just to confirm some things about Waziristan for my book but he shut me up pretty quick. :p

But despite wanting to be a think tank I don't want it to be unfair. lol. There are many posters like you @Hyperion and @Andromache who have many more posts and are more of a regular presence rather than one that is unreliable and suddenly disappears for a while to come back again. (Talking about myself)...

I will make the suggestion for you to be promoted to think tank. Also for a new role for @Armstrong-he is really good at relieving tension and ending heated arguments though he also specializes in derailing threads and spamming. No offense.



Every party has done the same... but Secur let me clarify why I specifically feel inclined to pick on the MQM. My family didn't just move across the border. It strongly identifies itself as Muhajir and are voters of the MQM, this support for them is all around me like a cacophony of maddening shrieks, i cannot escape it even by becoming a Pashtun. Basically ever since I got involved in politics I have been aware and been told that I am a Muhajir.

The changes you see are fairly recent. Now basically when someone is born in a community and sees its issues... he criticizes it right? I feel I have a right to criticize how we behaved and the formation of the MQM. This basically sets peoples hair on fire.

When I debate with MQM people I get called names like Pathan ki awlaad and other things. It was exact opposite with the Pashtuns (from Afghanistan and their backers) on that site but admin kicked me out.

Also I deeply thank you. Very few people come to accept what I have done, look at it positively without a trace of suspicion-especially since I feel loyal to the firangi mahal and ansari clan (our family) despite the change-how can i not be? Lucknow was the heartland of the muslim league and home of the lucknow pact. Bigots from both races have basically told me I don't belong in either.

Yes you are right. The issue is our heritage is unproven. Some relatives cite the anecdote of a Pashtun princess marrying one of our ancestors... but then how much of Pashtun blood do I have? Any way to gauge it? Another thing is it is unproven though I have believed this to be manifest truth for a while ... though talked about by some senior members in the khandaan, most, particularly MQM chauvinists deny it. Yes, thanks to a very good instructor I can understand Pashto but still when I speak people generally can tell I am not one of birth or learned the language... also make errors sometimes which pashto speakers may note. I know the vocabulary and most verbs but still have to learn how to apply them when its a he, she, it, I or you... lots of stuff. But my instructor is working on vocabulary which has greatly improved my ability to understand it.

Also you said the issue is not just an MQM issue... its a wider issue of race based politics. I wish to criticize this more openly... but the thing is (you would have noticed I don't criticize ANP heavily though I see it negatively) if I start criticizing Bacha Khan and ANP after I adopt Pashtun race its like I am joining and then I am telling Pashtuns what to do... only place I fight is when someone calls for the break up of my country or openly abuses other ethnic groups. I am especially concerned since the way people like Luffy and another member toramana react. They were racists but thing is they are right... they said I am a donkey trying to adopt lions skin but basically its very true.

Thing is I was nationalist long before anything else. I stop them when they abuse my country and reply back which they don't like at all. Still I try to avoid sharing my views on topics of sentimental value like ANP or Bacha Khan... but someone will talk about breaking my country i won't stop.



I agree... though I also believe those Afghan refugees should be given a chance to integrate by being given a chance to gain citizenship, particularly the affluent classes. That would piss off the keyboard warriors and Afghan-lover Pakistan bashers from the neighboring country-internet basically only comes in a few cities. 5% of the population has access only.) I guess I have a feeling for refugees regardless of their background and being callous towards them by calling Luffy or Sher Malang one.

As I said we moved late and Ayub closed the borders for some reason before all families had moved. Then there was some trouble in India with our relatives (distant) and people we knew in Hyderabad (our ancestral home is lucknow though but basically we were spread out)... some people lost family members there and stuff and we had lots of trouble trying to shift some relatives to Pakistan, my mother stayed in Lucknow and married from there, then became a Pakistani citizen. Guards at FIA office were abusive, insulted them and did everything to make them feel unwelcome. Why would they come to Pakistan and want to get citizenship if they loved India? But we don't have a brain in this regard. Look at the west. Importing professionals from Pakistan while manufacturing a brain drain in our land. We are turning educated people away instead. People may disagree b8 i support this still...

That played a part in my nationalism... I get affected by things and then go mad... have to take action.
You can read up my old posts if you find some. I became extremely active with the Sufferers Witness at that time around 2-3 years ago (charity group, does lots of work on woman's rights but lots on helping refugees as well.), was even sympathetic to the MQM though I wouldn't have been if I saw that horrid speech and studied more (didn't have the contacts as a journalist either). Recently Luffy provoked me and I basically insulted my family background, our relatives in Pakistan and "Muhajirs" a lot. @Karachiite without knowing me made a post defending Altaf's speech. lol. But you see where I am coming from @Secur? Any reference of going back and merging with india is like a slap on my face, especially coming from a pakistan-any reference that partition is wrong is a slap to the things i have seen in Sufferers witness and with friends and family that moved from hyderabad. The thing is like this is what people moving across the border suffered, about a million were killed. We moved to make Pakistan and build it, because we believed in Quaid's dream, we wanted Pakistan, ALL of it, not just an enclave for so called "muhajirs". Not to vote for terrorist politicians.

I blamed the Indians a lot... but whats their fault? Don't we (some fanatics) do the same thing to minorities in Pakistan? And what do we care anyway? People in our khandaan are basically defending the MQM and Altaf's speech despite knowing of the people killed in India. I feel we are deviating from the task at hand.

Those days of partition must have been so romantic... leaving everything, our houses, our lives, even half our family members with no guarantee of what the future holds... and now when we are here... what do we feel, what do we do for our country? Nothing except bash the original inhabitants? I feel sad and very angry... this shouldn't have happened Secur. We died like pigs in a slaughterhouse down there... we can't become like that, indifferent. No one quits his race unless absolutely frustrated with what he saw.

When i talk to MQM chauvinists people like @Armstrong say nothing because if they interfere its basically like a non-muhajir speaking about the affairs of one... and then they have a little humility and anyone who talks about ethnic unity would support those guys... they understand the entire issue as well and how quickly things can become an ethnic firefight. But the thing is Secur... lets leave me... i am in many ways raceless, because both Pashtuns and Muhajirs will doubt my intentions the moment i speak about them and that also using the common we i do all the time.

But I guess the most important thing would be that you and @GIANTsasquatch and others do not stop speaking against the tyranny of the MQM. People from the race know more and can help convince these people and bring them out of it. My parents actually have been away from Pakistan half their life... i was raised in Dubai too most of my life with many years spent in Toronto. Our knowledge basically comes from our larger family/relatives. They support MQM our family will too as they do now. But if knowledgeable people like you and others challenge them then perhaps there is a chance to beat these guys.



I totally agree with the inter-marriage solution which I fully support. We cannot let these parties destroy the intricate beautiful bond between us Pakistanis (the various ethnic groups)... I hope by revolution you mean PTI cauz i'm voting for him... but am a little cautious after u know so many years of looting...



Yeah. I think this is one of the best things... Pakistanis today are keen to accept their mistakes and rectify them. Personally I would never even have thought 5-10 years ago to gain any support for this idea. I also held and still hold the perhaps irrational fear that the current violence may divide my country further into tiny squabbling groups.

Basically its hard to be an optimist for me though. You will hear my name in humanitarian groups like TCF, Yaseer trust, Edhi and Ilm o amal other than on the nationalist front. Being a Pakistani today isn't just hard outside your country but in it as well.



I agree. Btw I would also like to cast light on something else I could have and indeed have tried to do before. I used to be part of the Pakistan Nationalist Association which is part of a wider Nationalist movement. What we tried to do to end the ethnic issue once and for all was tell our members to basically say I am Pakistani whenever someone asked about their ethnic identity and we were told not to tell our kids our ethnic identity... something if done by 180 million people would have led to ethnicity disappearing completely. But you see the loopholes here were obvious:
1) Anyone can know your ethnicity by finding out the language you speak and the geographic location you inhibit especially if he has enough knowledge.
2) How is it possible? Is it possible to impose on people such an idea and basically shove it in their minds that they do this. my point here is what is going to ensure they won't tell their kids which race they belong to. In other ways, there is no way to IMPLEMENT it.
3) A small movement of 12000 members can only ensure that its laws apply of course to its members. What about the 180 million outside the movement. Luffy would go mad (though he appears to have changed or says so) and @darkinsky would commit suicide when told to give up ethnic identity even though its abusive to them (as I said Muhajir is a very abusive term-it delectably means traveler, is our family one of nomads??? Its an insult to themselves and they didn't try to get rid of it?)

I guess I don't need to tell you that our policy was the failure of the century which we used to make fun off boisterously including the leader who introduced the idea... we took steps later on demanding members to learn a number of languages other than their own in order to futilely obfuscate our ethnic identity yet again. (Its all being added in my ethnic paper. Will share it on PDF but may time writing it with the book and research and all) But point 2) remained. We can't stop people from jumping a red signal how are we going to tell them not to tell their kids their ethnicity. Plus what makes us think that ethnicity itself is the problem rather than bigotry or ethnic superciliousness?

Frankly it hasn't worked and we need another solution. I thought it would be a good one to merge into another ethnic group. Pashtuns... i loved them of course but they were also seen by our khandaan as the worst enemies of muhajirs thanks to the MQM (which was another reason I grew attracted to them)... this was and is the best solution, I believe. It also creates a great feeling of goodwill. A Pashtun (forget the douches in the e-world) has shown me nothing but respect upon learning my background. They can tell-I pause when speaking Pashto, struggle with words and it takes time to register what they are saying-so no I am not perfect yet!)

Also don't worry if I am a little defensive about Pashtuns... I have seen a lot of bias here, even in Dubai where I lived a lot of time. I will always be Pakistani first second and last... then a person who loves Pashtuns and calls himself one.

Am very glad to meet you. You would notice that whenever someone starts insulting a party like MQM it quickly degenerates into a race war. Even when I criticize Muhajir behavior it happens sometimes since I easily pass for a Pashtun on this site and people don't know the background... then it quickly becomes a pillow fight. People defend their ethnicity and attack the other. It shows they are not disengaged from ethnicity as they are supposed to be. But I believe you are and this would make you a great think-tank. I easily get riled too and you are an easy going person.

You do. I will talk about it to Webbie or give a suggestion. Sorry for that huge reply bro... i noticed that i failed to reply to some of your posts which were of extremely high quality. So I felt i should reply.

Honestly , I cant believe you are having trouble finding a publisher for your novel which I am sure would be a best seller when published . I haven't read it of course but I am judging from the quality of your posts specially with that detailed and extensive knowledge on the " situation on ground " in this war ... Aren't there a lot of publishing agencies ( even foreign ) that would be interested in such sort of novel because it is a hot topic at the moment ? and people are always keen to look at the other side of the picture ... Surely , a good reputation and Think Tank status at some huge website like this will help you ...

Really ? Fair Dinkum ? @Hyperion refused to give an interview for the book , Why ? Though I am positive that he may have passed the suggestion to Webbie ...

Well you and I incline the hate for the same reason for MQM and extremism , because from childhood , we have seen it in our backyards and neighborhoods with our people suffering from it ... I can understand the specific hate for the party because most of the family members support it blindly and mine sadly , are the same to say the least ... But I still consider extremism as far worse threat than whatever Pakistan has ever faced ... I studied in a Christian run school which ironically charged less for education than what the " welfare based Muslims " were offering then ! I have had the opportunity to study in a diverse environment and thus had the chance to understand different cultures and religions and see how extremism or fanatics pose a threat to them ... A psychological phenomenon usually observed how we perceive the dangers for us ...

Well , people usually fail in a debate , they get to their last resort of " maligning " the other person or calling other " traitor " or " half blood " ... And of course if you are criticizing the very party they believe has given them identity and remains their savior , I can imagine what they can do to save its reputation and unfortunately " attacking the messenger " is an easy method ... Somehow , I think you perceive it wrong ... There's nothing wrong in being a wannabe Pashtun or any race but you are sometimes emotionally compromised by their words of being " half blood " or not " being loyal to the race " ... I simply say " I dont give a damn **** " about what you have to say about my race or religion ... You must have noticed when I told that cyber ****** Zarvan that " Let my faith be judged by the God because nothing you say will change anything whatsoever in that regard " ... The same is partially true for the race issues too ... There's no authority on deciding anyone's race ...

Let it be unproven then ... Who cares in this 21st century where our ancestors married or where we should marry ? We aren't breeding horses here , right ? Yes , there's no way to determine how much blood do you have of a specific race ( I honestly laugh when people point it out who and what I am as if they have studied my genetic pool and traced my heritage ) but even if it were , what use would it be ? Having never studied Pashto in your childhood - which is the time many " agree " is the perfect for learning a language , sadly you can never attain the fluency and deeper understanding of the language of a person who was born in a Pashto family ...

I can understand the limitations imposed by associating yourself with a particular race but isn't the very thing we seek to fight against ? Why not criticize Bacha Khan or Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan or ANP ? You wont be telling the Pashtuns what to do but merely to rectify their " versions " of history ... Calling a spade , a spade is the way to go ... The time for " doctrine of necessity " is well past , my friend ... Everyone associated with race based politics in our country's history has from time to time called for the disintegration of the country when their agendas weren't implemented or their aims " being not met " and or their very existence was in danger ... Look up the history of the Pakistan , it is filled with such cases ... Fortunately , God approves our undertakings and thus has protected the country from harm ( as I believe ) Latin " annuit coeptis " - found on the great american seal ... One can consider it anything but a miracle that the country has survived in terrible and harsh conditions with these parties and their " loyals " supporting them ... The Roman strategy of " divide and rule " works too well though , I am afraid ...

Mate , what you are forgetting that those Afghans are not loyal to this country despite our extension of hospitality and provision of facilities ... Those who are and do not work against our country can surely be given the chance to take this country's nationality but as far I understand , they wont be willing to do so ... They will seek every possible means to seek their extension in this country but never accept it as their own for various reasons ... Afghans are basically very anti-Pakistan , not from today not from the Soviet war but from the creation of this country ... My opinion may be stereoscopic and very weak about refugees though ... But you can still shed light on the thoughts of " Afghan refugees " in Pakistan ... I can understand the feelings arising from one's perception of humanity though ... They have suffered more than enough for most of the part of their history !

Well , most of them were settled here and integrated perfectly well into the society but still a considerable number of loyal and patriotic Pakistanis were left to rot in camps ... Still bring tears to my eyes , we can play hosts to everyone but our very own people ? Is this how nations treat their patriots ? There were various political reasons though and MQM again did everything which was detrimental to the cause of ensuring their arrival and integration in Pakistan , whatever they say exactly opposite shall be taken as nothing but " race based " politics again ... Though I sometimes wonder if this had something to do with the absurd " blood " concept , like the West is more than willing and eager to import talented brains because they dont believe in this fucked up mentality whilst the Middle East does exactly the opposite ? ... Yes , there are plenty of problem that even our lot faces from time to time , you cite the FIA guards ... I can cite the issues they encounter while obtaining their NIC or Passport when the person on the other side " Where were you born ? " and not " you are a Pakistani , right ? That does it , sir/madam " ...

That is great to hear that you did work for humanity regardless of their race ... I never myself had any sympathy to MQM because I thought rightly as " just another gang " seeking power for itself but from you are coming from , its understandable ... The traitor though opened many eyes with his " partition " speech - about time people learned the truth about his allegiances and bigotry ... You should rather have criticized yourself , mate understand one thing , people aren't bad by birth , I believe that its the situation that makes them so and even then most of them aren't really bad at heart ... @Karachiite basically did what the " less intelligent " usually do , follow other's line because they do not have one of them themselves ( opinion / understanding ) no critical thinking and pondering over things ability - not by birth but because they dont want to ... Yes , I can understand the anger after we have given so much for the country that we now cant see any harm being done to it and any venom being spewed against it ... The mere thought of " going back and changing loyalty " is disgusting and totally unacceptable ... What some do by saying that is basically stomp on Jinnah's grave , burn the flag of Pakistan and betray their ancestors who crossed the rivers of blood to reach this country ...

Now coming to comment on that , we do worse my friend ... Why dont those people who cry havoc on the martyring of Babri Mosque do the same for Buddhas of Bamyan and other shrines too ? Why dont we condemn the treatment of minorities in the country ? Why dont we take the issues of them going to India seriously ? Why dont we raise our voice when one of their temples/churches is destroyed / set on fire by fanatics ? ... The Muslims remaining in India are loyal to that country , the line was long drawn , that is something which is well understood ... Well , the people you mentioned which we see a plenty in our daily lives are simply " jumping on the bandwagon " and following other's line without critical analysis of their own ...

Yes , with no safety of future and uncertainty , I shiver when I even think of that ... Think of it , would you have done the same then ? Are we as patriotic as our ancestors ? I do not think so ! But yes , we contribute to this country at the end of the day except for the slang terminology " Muhajir " which we impose upon us and mistreating people of other races ... Well , my friend at this time in history , races do not matter at all despite what some are led to believe ! This just doesn't makes sense to me , so you didn't quit your race , you merely stopped calling yourself that derogatory term ... How is that , now ?

Yeah , I have seen the cautious attitude of members when commenting on sensitive matters specially when it comes to race - becoming a silent spectator in such case is understandable and well known ... Again , the race factor is at play as if one is restricted to comment on other races just because he isn't one of them ... I mean what sort of logic is that ? Does being of a specific race grant some exclusive rights ? You aren't raceless , you are of mixed race added with deep understanding and adaptation of another culture , not that it matters ... I myself am one and I do not give a damn what the haters have to say about it ...

Well , you have my firm assurance of Etiamsi omnes, ego non ( Even if all others , I will not ) ... I will maintain my own judgement and opinion on issues and comment without any hesitance ... Yes , you are kind of right , people will pay more attention when again someone of their " race " criticizes the norm of their ... Mate , why are you having trouble with publishing novels when you reside out of this country ? I am sure you may have many many contacts by now ! ... Sure there is a chance and one shouldn't lose it by becoming silent because it encourages only the oppressor , not the oppressed ...

You see we are improving ! A couple of years even the mere mention of " rectifying " national mistakes and self-criticism was unacceptable and somehow set people's arses on fire , it isn't the case today ... Pakistanis react very differently to self criticism now , they now listen and critically think about it even to the extent of supporting you ... If this becomes a norm , a revolution might be coming sooner than we think at the moment ... The fear is natural , it just so happens that I feel more optimistic than ever , a strange feeling that be ... I see things improving in this country for everyone once this war ends and we start shaping our own policies and take sovereign decisions rather than dictations ...

I haven't heard of this party ever , I dont know why though ? Are you not represented enough ? ... Coming to the other issue , yes it is very easy to know of a person's ethnicity by manners of speaking , lifestyle and different cultures ... But again , why not tell people simply not to care about it ? Well educated people usually dont care about it , they dont ask the race or religion because it doesn't matter to them ... Is the problem then linked with literacy somehow ? Imposition of such an important and useful idea is of course not possible but still we on our own can make sure that at least we do the right thing and make our contribution to blurring the lines of ethnicity ... The 180 millions will be on your way when they educated and prosper ... They will start developing critical thinking skills and make new judgement for them rather than relying on a particular leader ... Teaching different languages actually worked to an extent , there's no denial but in no way I think it was a total failure ... the ethnicity is the problem itself because its the very cause of bigotry and disdain for others ...

As I explained in my earlier posts , inter marriages and learning and understanding other's culture to appreciate it and rejection of " race based " politics will go a long way in ensuring that the lines are blurred and a person is identified by his country and not the race ... It will create a sense of oneness far better than good will and appreciation !

Me too , brother ... You see the severe side effects of this age old " race based " politics ? You start criticizing a party and it unbelievably becomes a race war , one wonders why ? Because people are made to think that somehow their existence and identity is linked with corrupt mafia of political parties ! Criticize one and get " visa " from the other , is it how its working ... I simply disassociate myself and do not care about hater's comments and do not think twice about them - because nothing they say change the reality on ground , a simple comment and reasoning suffices for them ... Maybe , it will help but I better like myself sitting in the back seat and ordering from there - making sure the work is done with plausible deniability

I am starting to like " huge replies " ... Perhaps these topics cant be discussed with short comments and the book writer syndrome isn't going to leave you ever so why not adapt to it ?

 

[Mughal-Prince]

Two wrongs can never make one right ... Period.

 

[haviZsultan]

This time I promise I will try to be brief. You could write a book yourself Secur... really mean it! If I do well and get a good publisher you will have a brother around who can help you enter the industry...

Honestly , I cant believe you are having trouble finding a publisher for your novel which I am sure would be a best seller when published . I haven't read it of course but I am judging from the quality of your posts specially with that detailed and extensive knowledge on the " situation on ground " in this war ... Aren't there a lot of publishing agencies ( even foreign ) that would be interested in such sort of novel because it is a hot topic at the moment ? and people are always keen to look at the other side of the picture ... Surely , a good reputation and Think Tank status at some huge website like this will help you ...

It will... but you are much more entitled. After that is Hyperion. I hope you got an offer now. That thread got deleted, thanks to Luffy and gang. A position should be earned and how is my position earned when I disappear and reappear constantly... plus man look at my posts... I get pissed with people who take ethnicity too seriously or are worse, separatists, or are extremely hostile to Pakistan. I admit my posts have knowledge but strategically concealed in my posts are things like these (old post to an Indian national):

The hair on your head are now making you feel heavy-headed now which is greatly limiting your ability to use your rust-eaten, dust-devoured brain... but in cases such as these what you tend to do is take those hair and paste them upon your pelvis in order to feel like a man.

Now if this post was a stand-alone post off nuclear-pakistan would come piercing through the air like a screeching Ghauri or Abdali missile and delete it. The only way I escape is basically by posting facts figures, population graphs, charts and information that only a person inside knowledge and an eye on international affairs can have... no one deletes massive posts with a lot of knowledge and arguments and some comments like those because they know otherwise it hampers debate. I have no clue if I will be able to refrain from those so no think-tank for me...

Now you know my secret. :p

Really ? Fair Dinkum ? @Hyperion refused to give an interview for the book , Why ? Though I am positive that he may have passed the suggestion to Webbie ...

No, no, he didn't refuse anything because I didn't get the chance to ask him... actually my actual hope was cornering him and forcing him to choose between 2 options-i thought he wouldn't be able to and then I would ask him for an interview-just to confirm some information a Burki provided-personally i'd like to know his village and tribe and find out if he particularly knows something about Ladha or Makeen. Apparently I should have known you can never corner a person from Waziristan. 90% of the people from Waziristan I have tried to interview have either refused or said okay only to end up not replying to me at all. Its 10% i rely on. Very hard... the situation is tough... so people are just a little nervous about intentions.

He said he has already passed the suggestion to webbie to make me jr think tank. The conversation ended there and I didn't ask. Lets call @Hyperion here and he can read this then I will see.

Well you and I incline the hate for the same reason for MQM and extremism , because from childhood , we have seen it in our backyards and neighborhoods with our people suffering from it ... I can understand the specific hate for the party because most of the family members support it blindly and mine sadly , are the same to say the least ... But I still consider extremism as far worse threat than whatever Pakistan has ever faced ... I studied in a Christian run school which ironically charged less for education than what the " welfare based Muslims " were offering then ! I have had the opportunity to study in a diverse environment and thus had the chance to understand different cultures and religions and see how extremism or fanatics pose a threat to them ... A psychological phenomenon usually observed how we perceive the dangers for us ...

You are absolutely right... I am not trying to deny or draw attention away from the destruction the wahabi terrorists have caused in our Pak sarzameen... but basically a lot of things become secondary when u have bombs going off in the country near daily and in this is ignored the ethnic issue and a lot of social issues as well... like lets say drugs, rape and child abuse. People just say bombs are exploding across the country and you think about that? Just a point I am making.

Btw Christians have done a lot for Pakistan. I'd like to see a Christian brother receive the Nishan E haider. Their colleges, their infrastructure still remains in the country and we study in their schools, colleges and visit their hospitals... which are as Pakistanis ours. I believe nationalism and religion are seperate. Nationalism and ethnic gratification are separate too though this does not mean that we try to kill cultures. Recently on twitter Ahmed Quraishi posted the same thing, that there should be no ethnicity, provinces, languages in Pakistan. We don't understand that if federational or nationalist party (we have none) had named NWFP Pakhtunkhwa and had helped Pashtuns develop their culture ANP would have no way to make inroads there. We Nationalists fail to understand the ethnic issue... thats why my organization made rules like the stupid ones I mentioned before which never worked.

Well , people usually fail in a debate , they get to their last resort of " maligning " the other person or calling other " traitor " or " half blood " ... And of course if you are criticizing the very party they believe has given them identity and remains their savior , I can imagine what they can do to save its reputation and unfortunately " attacking the messenger " is an easy method ... Somehow , I think you perceive it wrong ... There's nothing wrong in being a wannabe Pashtun or any race but you are sometimes emotionally compromised by their words of being " half blood " or not " being loyal to the race " ... I simply say " I dont give a damn **** " about what you have to say about my race or religion ... You must have noticed when I told that cyber ****** Zarvan that " Let my faith be judged by the God because nothing you say will change anything whatsoever in that regard " ... The same is partially true for the race issues too ... There's no authority on deciding anyone's race ...

Thank you very much. This is the best way of creating unity too. Last part especially well said. What can give someone a right to call someone Pashtun or non-pashtun... plus who knows our background man? Our ancester Abu Ayub Ansari was Arab, one of our ancestors a Tajik, we Lucknowites and I Pashtun... even Pir Roshan was known as Bayazid Ansari and is known to be a migrant. (Our family is Ansari) So I state that ethnicity is very fluid, people change locations and merge into the local community. Simple.

Let it be unproven then ... Who cares in this 21st century where our ancestors married or where we should marry ? We aren't breeding horses here , right ? Yes , there's no way to determine how much blood do you have of a specific race ( I honestly laugh when people point it out who and what I am as if they have studied my genetic pool and traced my heritage ) but even if it were , what use would it be ? Having never studied Pashto in your childhood - which is the time many " agree " is the perfect for learning a language , sadly you can never attain the fluency and deeper understanding of the language of a person who was born in a Pashto family ...

True. Actually it is not really a matter of great concern for me. I do not have to shove my newfound ethnicity in anyones face and feel insecure about it like Luffy.

I can understand the limitations imposed by associating yourself with a particular race but isn't the very thing we seek to fight against ? Why not criticize Bacha Khan or Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan or ANP ? You wont be telling the Pashtuns what to do but merely to rectify their " versions " of history ... Calling a spade , a spade is the way to go ... The time for " doctrine of necessity " is well past , my friend ... Everyone associated with race based politics in our country's history has from time to time called for the disintegration of the country when their agendas weren't implemented or their aims " being not met " and or their very existence was in danger ... Look up the history of the Pakistan , it is filled with such cases ... Fortunately , God approves our undertakings and thus has protected the country from harm ( as I believe ) Latin " annuit coeptis " - found on the great american seal ... One can consider it anything but a miracle that the country has survived in terrible and harsh conditions with these parties and their " loyals " supporting them ... The Roman strategy of " divide and rule " works too well though , I am afraid ...

I agree to an extent with what you say about the Pashtuns and I often argue with separatists (I just can't take them)... but I cannot interfere in anyone else's views, especially local Pakistani Pashtuns (among whom views greatly differe from Astanosh to andromache) or the race card very quickly comes in. Thats why I stop safriz and some people from commenting to others because its all these ethno-fascists want. It quickly becomes a race war. They insult pashtuns/punjabis/kashmiris and the person hearing it feels it is necessary to defend his ethnicity and fight back by attacking the other... which just means the bigoted ethno-fascist wins.

I comment on ANP and Bacha Khan distantly... but if I do more its just a tool for people like Luffy. Its far different criticizing your ethnicity of birth though.... I let myself loose when talking about MQM severely criticizing most Muhajirs... but I told you I am frustrated with how we behaved.

But I do criticize bad things of ANP and Bacha Khan (his view of united india very childish as his choice of burial place) but I stay a little careful on this front. People still think of me as a wannabe. I really love Pashtuns though, but you know I may never fit in... I can't afford not to be attracted to Pashtuns after studying so much... but I am largely disengaged.

But if I defend them sometimes its not because I have become a Pashtun, its because I have seen the discrimination with my eyes. I defend them as a person who has seen discrimination to them from birth... and I want it to stop... not just against Pashtuns but everyone else.

Mate , what you are forgetting that those Afghans are not loyal to this country despite our extension of hospitality and provision of facilities ... Those who are and do not work against our country can surely be given the chance to take this country's nationality but as far I understand , they wont be willing to do so ... They will seek every possible means to seek their extension in this country but never accept it as their own for various reasons ... Afghans are basically very anti-Pakistan , not from today not from the Soviet war but from the creation of this country ... My opinion may be stereoscopic and very weak about refugees though ... But you can still shed light on the thoughts of " Afghan refugees " in Pakistan ... I can understand the feelings arising from one's perception of humanity though ... They have suffered more than enough for most of the part of their history !

Oh, don't worry about the Afghans (nation)... they are going to get a spanking on the buttocks. I have been chasing Luffy and sher malang for a week. Another troll from that horrid forum joined now... looks like its time to fry some Kabuli tikka.

But the refugees... lets say as an active person on rights and stuff I have seen their plight. Most of them don't have a computer or even aware of this Pashtunistan rubbish. I don't say citizenship only for them... bring Biharis here, allow people escaping India to come. In 2003-2004 we had huge problem with this. We are too harsh on people.

Well , most of them were settled here and integrated perfectly well into the society but still a considerable number of loyal and patriotic Pakistanis were left to rot in camps ... Still bring tears to my eyes , we can play hosts to everyone but our very own people ? Is this how nations treat their patriots ? There were various political reasons though and MQM again did everything which was detrimental to the cause of ensuring their arrival and integration in Pakistan , whatever they say exactly opposite shall be taken as nothing but " race based " politics again ... Though I sometimes wonder if this had something to do with the absurd " blood " concept , like the West is more than willing and eager to import talented brains because they dont believe in this fucked up mentality whilst the Middle East does exactly the opposite ? ... Yes , there are plenty of problem that even our lot faces from time to time , you cite the FIA guards ... I can cite the issues they encounter while obtaining their NIC or Passport when the person on the other side " Where were you born ? " and not " you are a Pakistani , right ? That does it , sir/madam " ...

Yeah... its a problem. They don't understand... also its the same issue as with the Canadians that I saw. They want us to forget everything about India or being Indian... when a person moves and takes Pakistani citizenship it takes time to integrate. My mother's family stayed in Lucknow. Father came to Pakistan though he moved late (after 47-52 when most migration occurred)... now moving my mother to Pakistan and getting her citizenship, massive issue... replayed later in 2003 when some distant relatives and people in Hyderabad ran into issues. But now all people that moved are patriotic Pakistanis. Yes I don't like them because they don't understand the essence of being Pakistani which is respecting all ethnic groups.

That is great to hear that you did work for humanity regardless of their race ... I never myself had any sympathy to MQM because I thought rightly as " just another gang " seeking power for itself but from you are coming from , its understandable ... The traitor though opened many eyes with his " partition " speech - about time people learned the truth about his allegiances and bigotry ... You should rather have criticized yourself , mate understand one thing , people aren't bad by birth , I believe that its the situation that makes them so and even then most of them aren't really bad at heart ...

Yeah... it scares me that these 3 leaders are making these kinds of speeches. I agree... a lot of people aren't bad at heart... but are just misled by leaders.

@Karachiite basically did what the " less intelligent " usually do , follow other's line because they do not have one of them themselves ( opinion / understanding ) no critical thinking and pondering over things ability - not by birth but because they dont want to ... Yes , I can understand the anger after we have given so much for the country that we now cant see any harm being done to it and any venom being spewed against it ... The mere thought of " going back and changing loyalty " is disgusting and totally unacceptable ... What some do by saying that is basically stomp on Jinnah's grave , burn the flag of Pakistan and betray their ancestors who crossed the rivers of blood to reach this country ... [/QUOTE]

I agree... this is very personal for me... and since we moved late we have seen what the Indians did... the violence is fresh in a lot of our minds. Especially the 2003 incidents... sometime before that I was in Lucknow.

BTW I mentioned exactly the same lines to Karachite and some others here on this site.

Now coming to comment on that , we do worse my friend ... Why dont those people who cry havoc on the martyring of Babri Mosque do the same for Buddhas of Bamyan and other shrines too ? Why dont we condemn the treatment of minorities in the country ? Why dont we take the issues of them going to India seriously ? Why dont we raise our voice when one of their temples/churches is destroyed / set on fire by fanatics ? ... The Muslims remaining in India are loyal to that country , the line was long drawn , that is something which is well understood ... Well , the people you mentioned which we see a plenty in our daily lives are simply " jumping on the bandwagon " and following other's line without critical analysis of their own ...

A1 comment that proves you deserve to be on the think-tank. Especially bold part. This is my biggest lesson basically from the things I saw and the difficulties we faced. Some people killed were very close. We cannot do the same thing in Pakistan. We cannot create more Sana's bajis and Saima's (some of the victims we saw)... we have to treat our own people with respect regardless of race or ethnicity. And we should equally condemn these things.

Yes , with no safety of future and uncertainty , I shiver when I even think of that ... Think of it , would you have done the same then ? Are we as patriotic as our ancestors ? I do not think so ! But yes , we contribute to this country at the end of the day except for the slang terminology " Muhajir " which we impose upon us and mistreating people of other races ... Well , my friend at this time in history , races do not matter at all despite what some are led to believe ! This just doesn't makes sense to me , so you didn't quit your race , you merely stopped calling yourself that derogatory term ... How is that , now ?

Thanks buddy!
Makes me feel solid.

Yeah , I have seen the cautious attitude of members when commenting on sensitive matters specially when it comes to race - becoming a silent spectator in such case is understandable and well known ... Again , the race factor is at play as if one is restricted to comment on other races just because he isn't one of them ... I mean what sort of logic is that ? Does being of a specific race grant some exclusive rights ? You aren't raceless , you are of mixed race added with deep understanding and adaptation of another culture , not that it matters ... I myself am one and I do not give a damn what the haters have to say about it ...

It isn't any logic... but basically what I have seen is a member quitens down when someone from his own race responds and keeps fighting when someone from outside does it. They rely on racism... they can't insult anyone else from their own race because they have to talk rubbish about other ethnic groups so basically they feel like a shipwreck... like they are falling and have no railing to hold on to... thats why people like Sher Malang you may have noticed are stuck on my ethnicity and keep trying to deny it... I will admit it... I am not afraid of them.

It doesn't hurt me what anyone says bro... i am indeed more or less raceless. And it is not the end of the world... i don't need race to survive. But if I am saying I am Pashtun yes its also because I love Pashtuns but a message of unity too. Will I be greatly hurt when people say I am not one, while on other side so called Muhajirs say the same thing. No, i guess. But my intention is to make a difference... i feel I am not making one which worries me.

I just can't convince these people and I want that desperately.

Well , you have my firm assurance of Etiamsi omnes, ego non ( Even if all others , I will not ) ... I will maintain my own judgement and opinion on issues and comment without any hesitance ... Yes , you are kind of right , people will pay more attention when again someone of their " race " criticizes the norm of their ... Mate , why are you having trouble with publishing novels when you reside out of this country ? I am sure you may have many many contacts by now ! ... Sure there is a chance and one shouldn't lose it by becoming silent because it encourages only the oppressor , not the oppressed ...

Actually I got sick... ulcer and stuff, bacteria too, breathe very heavy-sometimes people find it amusing-I can't go out much like that. So I lost a lot of contacts but these were mostly social, guys and girls u chill with and stuff-also lost my position as leader of PNA. Now what I have is journalistic contacts... most haven't really helped in regard . There is however one guy who said he knows an agent and can entice him to read my manuscript. So waiting for some inside job for now.

As far as publishing the book is concerned I already found a publisher... but I am trying to ditch them and go for BIG fish... big fish here means randomhouse-penguin with 80% of all book sales globally. But I have to get through to them with an agent. In short its a long story and I will only bore you with the intricacies of book publishing which is extremely hard in this day and age. Authors literally have to beg to get their books signed. But if I sign with randomhouse a lot of issues get fixed and you might see me among Mohsin Hamid and Bina Shah.

You see we are improving ! A couple of years even the mere mention of " rectifying " national mistakes and self-criticism was unacceptable and somehow set people's arses on fire , it isn't the case today ... Pakistanis react very differently to self criticism now , they now listen and critically think about it even to the extent of supporting you ... If this becomes a norm , a revolution might be coming sooner than we think at the moment ... The fear is natural , it just so happens that I feel more optimistic than ever , a strange feeling that be ... I see things improving in this country for everyone once this war ends and we start shaping our own policies and take sovereign decisions rather than dictations ...

Entirely true! Stay this optimistic. I was like you... and for godsake never take up journalism and rights issues as a career path... it will rot your brain and make you lose optimism. It happened to me.

I haven't heard of this party ever , I dont know why though ? Are you not represented enough ? ... Coming to the other issue , yes it is very easy to know of a person's ethnicity by manners of speaking , lifestyle and different cultures ... But again , why not tell people simply not to care about it ? Well educated people usually dont care about it , they dont ask the race or religion because it doesn't matter to them ... Is the problem then linked with literacy somehow ? Imposition of such an important and useful idea is of course not possible but still we on our own can make sure that at least we do the right thing and make our contribution to blurring the lines of ethnicity ... The 180 millions will be on your way when they educated and prosper ... They will start developing critical thinking skills and make new judgement for them rather than relying on a particular leader ... Teaching different languages actually worked to an extent , there's no denial but in no way I think it was a total failure ... the ethnicity is the problem itself because its the very cause of bigotry and disdain for others ...

We want to host a political party. Like 12,000 members is nothing right. Sunni Tehreek had like 700,000 when it made a debut into national politics. Nationalism is an infant ideology as yet.

As I explained in my earlier posts , inter marriages and learning and understanding other's culture to appreciate it and rejection of " race based " politics will go a long way in ensuring that the lines are blurred and a person is identified by his country and not the race ... It will create a sense of oneness far better than good will and appreciation !

True I wish to see the day when lines of race are blurred completely.

Me too , brother ... You see the severe side effects of this age old " race based " politics ? You start criticizing a party and it unbelievably becomes a race war , one wonders why ? Because people are made to think that somehow their existence and identity is linked with corrupt mafia of political parties ! Criticize one and get " visa " from the other , is it how its working ... I simply disassociate myself and do not care about hater's comments and do not think twice about them - because nothing they say change the reality on ground , a simple comment and reasoning suffices for them ... Maybe , it will help but I better like myself sitting in the back seat and ordering from there - making sure the work is done with plausible deniability

Yeah I could learn...

I am starting to like " huge replies " ... Perhaps these topics cant be discussed with short comments and the book writer syndrome isn't going to leave you ever so why not adapt to it ?

I agree.

 

[Hyperion]

@haviZsultan, dude your research is pretty good, and your writing style shows promise. Though, at times, you do digress and your focus is all over the place. Try to keep information concise, with catchy punchlines.

I'd recommend you any day to @WebMaster for a Jr. Think Tank title. We definitely need people who understand the Pashtun 'mindset', and can advocate their viewpoints in the National context, of-course, without prejudice.

By the way, whoever I am, we're pretty much a very secretive bunch, and we like to keep it that way. My apologies, as it's my habit to write short replies.

Furthermore, I am pretty impressed with @Secur's analytical abilities!